2:2 in an integrated masters - what should I put on my CV?

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#1
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#1
I took a 4 year MMath (integrated masters) and received a 2:2 at the end of it. I had a 2:1 in my third year and I could have stopped then and received a BSc but I continued and did badly in my 4th year.

I'm wondering if I can avoid putting my grade on my CV since I have a masters? Would "Master of Mathematics..." be okay? I think that I could be disadvantaged compared to CVs that say "2:1" even though I did a year extra and did just as well in my first 3 years. I would mention my grade when questioned in an interview, I'm just a bit worried that my CV could be misleading...

I'll be applying for IT/programming jobs if that makes any difference.
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Student-95
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#2
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Tricky question. If you're sending your CV to a person then I'd put the grade for each year so they can see you just did poorly in your final year.

However many applications will be online and will ask you directly for your grade. If you put 2.2 and they require a 2.1 then you'll likely be screened out immediately. If that's the case you could try contacting the hiring manager directly to explain.
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threeportdrift
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#3
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(Original post by 0-))
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Hmm, depends if you think there is a chance of having to show a transcript or not. It's right on the edge, but as grading masters degrees as 2.1, 2.2 is not the norm/expectation you could get away with saying your undergrad was a 2.1 and you passed your Masters. So I'd put 2.1 if asked what undergrad grade you got, and Pass if asked about Masters. Of course application forms may not give you that exact option, but you could explain in the free text.

So on a CV I'd put

2014-18 University of Wherever, Masters in Maths, (UG 2.1, Masters Pass)

Which is factually correct in that you got the 2.1 and passed, and if pressed hard in interview, you can explain that the combined grading came out as a 2.2 overall. That's still potentially better to many employers than a 2.2 at UG level.

Don't over-estimate the number of companies that a) operate filtering software and b) that operate filtering software blindly and don't have a human read applications to make manual adjustments. The number of disabilities, reasonable adjustments, mitigating circumstances, non standard routes, overseas qualifications etc nowadays, a company would get very bad press if it was ever found out to be blindly operating an auto-reject process. Tough thresholds, yes, but blind auto-rejects - I never found one when working closely with consultancy recruiters a few years ago.
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El Salvador
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#4
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If you're sending your CV to a person, and that company did not specify a specific class honours, then there is actually no need to put your honours in.

Literally nobody ever asked me and I've applied for many jobs.
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threeportdrift
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#5
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(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
If you're sending your CV to a person, and that company did not specify a specific class honours, then there is actually no need to put your honours in.

Literally nobody ever asked me and I've applied for many jobs.
a) have you got many graduate offers and
b) everyone presumed you got a 2.2 and if they gave you an offer, didn't care, but if they didn't give you an offer and you didn't get a 2.2, you maybe weakened your position

Not putting a degree grade is is taken to mean you got a 2.2 or less. Not putting A level grades in is taken to mean you got CCC or less. So missing out your grades is not an entirely neutral action.
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Nabopolassar
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#6
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most people don't ask so just leave it off imo
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El Salvador
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#7
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#7
(Original post by threeportdrift)
a) have you got many graduate offers and
Yes. I got offers even when I wasn't applying for them.

In fact, I almost made the top 1% income bracket as a fresh graduate, and making it soon after.

(Original post by threeportdrift)
b) everyone presumed you got a 2.2
Who? Literally nobody seemed to have. Everyone seemed to assume I have gotten a first.

(Original post by threeportdrift)
and if they gave you an offer, didn't care,
I certainly doubt most even care. They care about experience and my freelance experiences appealed to them. The universities I attended probably did, too.

(Original post by threeportdrift)
but if they didn't give you an offer and you didn't get a 2.2, you maybe weakened your position
The only offers I didn't get were the ones I clearly wasn't qualified for. Like when I was randomly - and foolishly - applying for university jobs without a doctorate or full-time experience anywhere.

(Original post by threeportdrift)
Not putting a degree grade is is taken to mean you got a 2.2 or less.
By you? Who cares what you think?

(Original post by threeportdrift)
Not putting A level grades in is taken to mean you got CCC or less.
This is even more LOL. If you're a school leaver without additional qualifications or experience, I guess a-level grades would be the only things you could have on your CV.

But if you literally have anything else, why would you even put your a-level grades in? In my entire life, only two employers ever asked about my public examinations grades - a parent, when I was tutoring her child as a sixth former myself; the government, when I was an undergraduate applying to be an assistant marker for some public examinations. (The latter was a computer system so I had no idea how relevant the grades were.)

(Original post by threeportdrift)
So missing out your grades is not an entirely neutral action.
And what credentials do you have to qualify you to speak on this matter?

Since you didn't mention anything at all, I have to assume - based on your logic - that you are a 10-year-old with unemployed parents living on benefits. And you are absolutely failing primary school.
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piupiupiupiu
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#8
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#8
(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
Yes. I got offers even when I wasn't applying for them.

In fact, I almost made the top 1% income bracket as a fresh graduate, and making it soon after.



Who? Literally nobody seemed to have. Everyone seemed to assume I have gotten a first.



I certainly doubt most even care. They care about experience and my freelance experiences appealed to them. The universities I attended probably did, too.



The only offers I didn't get were the ones I clearly wasn't qualified for. Like when I was randomly - and foolishly - applying for university jobs without a doctorate or full-time experience anywhere.



By you? Who cares what you think?



This is even more LOL. If you're a school leaver without additional qualifications or experience, I guess a-level grades would be the only things you could have on your CV.

But if you literally have anything else, why would you even put your a-level grades in? In my entire life, only two employers ever asked about my public examinations grades - a parent, when I was tutoring her child as a sixth former myself; the government, when I was an undergraduate applying to be an assistant marker for some public examinations. (The latter was a computer system so I had no idea how relevant the grades were.)



And what credentials do you have to qualify you to speak on this matter?

Since you didn't mention anything at all, I have to assume - based on your logic - that you are a 10-year-old with unemployed parents living on benefits. And you are absolutely failing primary school.
Hmm... I tried to reply to this once but it didn't work. The poster is correct I'm afraid - I've worked in recruitment (and notice that they are a TSR CV helper) and it is true - if you miss your grades off your CV it tends to come across like you are hiding something. Obviously if grades aren't important for a role it doesn't matter, but there's no point doing yourself a disservice by making it look worse than it is.

Personally I'd do what a poster higher up said - say you got a 2.1 for your undergrad and a pass for your masters. That's the best version of the truth.
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#9
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#9
(Original post by threeportdrift)
2014-18 University of Wherever, Masters in Maths, (UG 2.1, Masters Pass)
Do you think "Masters Pass" is needed? Would it look better without a grade since it's not a distinction or is that hiding something?

Thanks everyone for your replies
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Smack
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#10
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#10
(Original post by threeportdrift)
2014-18 University of Wherever, Masters in Maths, (UG 2.1, Masters Pass)

Which is factually correct in that you got the 2.1 and passed, and if pressed hard in interview, you can explain that the combined grading came out as a 2.2 overall. That's still potentially better to many employers than a 2.2 at UG level.
I'm not sure if this is correct. An integrated masters is taken and awarded as one degree; it is not broken up into undergraduate and postgraduate sections. The degree certificate will likely only state the final grade achieved, and not mention anything for the combined first three years. I would be concerned that putting down a 2:1 when no 2:1 has been awarded and there is likely no reference to one being achieved could potentially be flagged up if qualifications are rigorously checked.
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El Salvador
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(Original post by piupiupiupiu)
Hmm... I tried to reply to this once but it didn't work. The poster is correct I'm afraid - I've worked in recruitment (and notice that they are a TSR CV helper) and it is true - if you miss your grades off your CV it tends to come across like you are hiding something. Obviously if grades aren't important for a role it doesn't matter, but there's no point doing yourself a disservice by making it look worse than it is.

Personally I'd do what a poster higher up said - say you got a 2.1 for your undergrad and a pass for your masters. That's the best version of the truth.
So the OP got a 2:2. By your logic, people are going to assume they got a 2:2. That is making themselves looking worse?

TSR CV helper status means absolutely nothing. They have no credentials listed and there's no statistics or even claims made anywhere at all to say they have been effective, for anyone, at any time, anywhere, for anything. The fact that she quickly assumed, incorrectly, that my approach didn't get me graduate offers, already is testament to the reality that she clearly didn't know enough on this matter.

I don't doubt that if the degree is the only thing literally listed on the CV, it'd look like one is hiding something, since it'd look awfully empty. But as a recruiter, are you really suggesting that you have been ignoring work experience and other achievements because you weren't absolutely sure if someone got a 2:1 or above?
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piupiupiupiu
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#12
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#12
(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
So the OP got a 2:2. By your logic, people are going to assume they got a 2:2. That is making themselves looking worse?
No, by my & recruiters' logic, OP would be making themselves look like they got a 2:2 or less. You don't want employers to think that you might have got less than a 2:2 when you didn't.

(Original post by The Champion.m4a)

TSR CV helper status means absolutely nothing. They have no credentials listed and there's no statistics or even claims made anywhere at all to say they have been effective, for anyone, at any time, anywhere, for anything.
That's fair. I suspect it is something they have an interest in but we don't know their credentials.

(Original post by The Champion.m4a)

I don't doubt that if the degree is the only thing literally listed on the CV, it'd look like one is hiding something, since it'd look awfully empty. But as a recruiter, are you really suggesting that you have been ignoring work experience and other achievements because you weren't absolutely sure if someone got a 2:1 or above?
No, to ignore the rest of the CV would be really stupid. E.g. if someone has put 10 years' experience in a relevant sector, but they haven't put their uni grade, I think it would be a bit silly to discount them, unless you are looking for someone very academic.

But consider this - you have 2 CVs, each with 10 years experience. The degree is in the same field. One person has put that they got a 2.1 at undergrad and a pass at Masters (to use OP's example) and the other got the same grade but didn't put it on their CV. An employer is much more likely to contact the former candidate. Obviously if they have time they can contact the second candidate to check their grades and then interview both of them, but it's unusual for employers to go to that kind of effort - you really have to put everything you want them to know on the CV.
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El Salvador
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#13
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(Original post by piupiupiupiu)
No, to ignore the rest of the CV would be really stupid. E.g. if someone has put 10 years' experience in a relevant sector, but they haven't put their uni grade, I think it would be a bit silly to discount them, unless you are looking for someone very academic.
So in other words, if you don't have the best results, it'd be better to frame your CV to focus on other achievements, be it internships or freelance/part-time experience, or awards/honours, or additional certified skills etc. And once you've done that, there's little need to put class honours on to the CV.

Most employers would prefer someone with experience than someone who doesn't. Framing one's CV to focus on the experience rather than the qualifications, which most applicants would have got, would be more advantageous, would you not agree?

The approach to say "2:1 in BSc" and "pass in Master's" is potentially problematic as someone else has pointed out. Depends on the university, integrated master's students don't necessarily get two diplomas or degrees, and a 2:1 would not have been awarded at any point at all. That'd be lying on one's CV and it's illegal. There's nothing stopping the OP from listing the % they got in every year, of course, but once they've done that, the entire focus of the CV will turn into their qualifications (since it's going to be lengthy), which apparently they don't excel in.

If this is a case of someone who's getting a 2:2 with absolutely no experience or certified skills or awards to add, then the only way to save the CV is to at least go and get some now instead of doing something that's potentially illegal.

(Original post by piupiupiupiu)
But consider this - you have 2 CVs, each with 10 years experience. The degree is in the same field. One person has put that they got a 2.1 at undergrad and a pass at Masters (to use OP's example) and the other got the same grade but didn't put it on their CV. An employer is much more likely to contact the former candidate. Obviously if they have time they can contact the second candidate to check their grades and then interview both of them, but it's unusual for employers to go to that kind of effort - you really have to put everything you want them to know on the CV.
So your firm evaluates people's academic performance from at least 10 years ago, and not the actual achievements in their job in the last 10 years?

Sounds fantastical.
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piupiupiupiu
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(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
So in other words, if you don't have the best results, it'd be better to frame your CV to focus on other achievements, be it internships or freelance/part-time experience, or awards/honours, or additional certified skills etc. And once you've done that, there's little need to put class honours on to the CV.

Most employers would prefer someone with experience than someone who doesn't. Framing one's CV to focus on the experience rather than the qualifications, which most applicants would have got, would be more advantageous, would you not agree?

The approach to say "2:1 in BSc" and "pass in Master's" is potentially problematic as someone else has pointed out. Depends on the university, integrated master's students don't necessarily get two diplomas or degrees, and a 2:1 would not have been awarded at any point at all. That'd be lying on one's CV and it's illegal. There's nothing stopping the OP from listing the % they got in every year, of course, but once they've done that, the entire focus of the CV will turn into their qualifications (since it's going to be lengthy), which apparently they don't excel in.

If this is a case of someone who's getting a 2:2 with absolutely no experience or certified skills or awards to add, then the only way to save the CV is to at least go and get some now instead of doing something that's potentially illegal.



So your firm evaluates people's academic performance from at least 10 years ago, and not the actual achievements in their job in the last 10 years?

Sounds fantastical.
Who said the person did their degree 10 years ago? Most people should really have some work experience by the time they're 18/19.

I'm just saying, put the best angle on each aspect of your CV, because someone out there might have all the same credentials as you, and if you miss one of yours off, it could swing it for them. Especially with something like a grade, which, as we've said, can and does make employers think you might be hiding a bad grade even if you're not.

I don't work for a firm either - I worked in recruitment in the past, I've moved on to a different sector.
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El Salvador
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#15
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(Original post by Smack)
I'm not sure if this is correct. An integrated masters is taken and awarded as one degree; it is not broken up into undergraduate and postgraduate sections. The degree certificate will likely only state the final grade achieved, and not mention anything for the combined first three years. I would be concerned that putting down a 2:1 when no 2:1 has been awarded and there is likely no reference to one being achieved could potentially be flagged up if qualifications are rigorously checked.
It depends on the university. Oxford and Cambridge both technically award the "Bachelor of Arts" "degree" to integrated masters' students (which can be "converted" to "Master of Art" without any additional testing in the future). I don't know if other universities actually award two degrees as well.

But the Oxbridge BA diplomas do not state the class honours as far as I know. I'm not certain how the transcripts are presented.
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El Salvador
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#16
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(Original post by piupiupiupiu)
Who said the person did their degree 10 years ago? Most people should really have some work experience by the time they're 18/19.

I'm just saying, put the best angle on each aspect of your CV, because someone out there might have all the same credentials as you, and if you miss one of yours off, it could swing it for them. Especially with something like a grade, which, as we've said, can and does make employers think you might be hiding a bad grade even if you're not.

I don't work for a firm either - I worked in recruitment in the past, I've moved on to a different sector.
Let's say you're an athlete applying to be a trainer. You have only mediocre a-levels but very good numbers on your sport.

You don't present both to "put the best angle on each aspect". You frame your CV to present your best angle overall.

If the OP is applying for academic jobs, then of course there'd be no avoiding mentioning the class honours (given that there aren't additional degrees), but for anything else, one would try to focus on the aspects one is best in, such as achievements in the work experience, its breadth and depth, and to minimize the "education" section because it wouldn't matter as much any more.

The scenario you're presenting is theoretical and clinical. It's highly, highly unlikely that two individuals would have the exact same path in life barring the degree class honours. And of course it's not even an accurate example - the OP got a 2:2, so you shouldn't be comparing them to someone with a 2:1.

Your hypothesis that "all else being equal, this one thing could tip the balance" could be applied to anything - age, whether the recruiter likes the name, gender, university attended, place(s) worked for, additional skill(s)/certificate(s), language(s) spoken, layout of the CVs, presumed ethnicity, the mood of the recruiter when reading the CVs, etc.

Literally anything at all could tip the balance, and what I'm saying is that to tip the balance in your favour, perhaps it's best to show your overall best self on your CV, rather than showing your weakness even when not asked.

We also need to remember that most employers would not have a requirement or expectation set on the performance in a master's degree, which may very well be the only degree the OP has, depends on the regulations of their university. It would, thus, be even more common for candidates like him to not include the grade.
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piupiupiupiu
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#17
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(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
Let's say you're an athlete applying to be a trainer. You have only mediocre a-levels but very good numbers on your sport.

You don't present both to "put the best angle on each aspect". You frame your CV to present your best angle overall.

If the OP is applying for academic jobs, then of course there'd be no avoiding mentioning the class honours (given that there aren't additional degrees), but for anything else, one would try to focus on the aspects one is best in, such as achievements in the work experience, its breadth and depth, and to minimize the "education" section because it wouldn't matter as much any more.

The scenario you're presenting is theoretical and clinical. It's highly, highly unlikely that two individuals would have the exact same path in life barring the degree class honours. And of course it's not even an accurate example - the OP got a 2:2, so you shouldn't be comparing them to someone with a 2:1.

Your hypothesis that "all else being equal, this one thing could tip the balance" could be applied to anything - age, whether the recruiter likes the name, gender, university attended, place(s) worked for, additional skill(s)/certificate(s), language(s) spoken, layout of the CVs, presumed ethnicity, the mood of the recruiter when reading the CVs, etc.

Literally anything at all could tip the balance, and what I'm saying is that to tip the balance in your favour, perhaps it's best to show your overall best self on your CV, rather than showing your weakness even when not asked.

We also need to remember that most employers would not have a requirement or expectation set on the performance in a master's degree, which may very well be the only degree the OP has, depends on the regulations of their university. It would, thus, be even more common for candidates like him to not include the grade.
I have come across multiple scenarios both when working in recruitment, and as a boss in my sector now (i.e. not a recruitment worker but the person who ultimately makes the decision) where it was a tiny detail that swung the decision. The kind of detail that would really frustrate the person who 'just missed out' and make them wish they'd put one extra little detail on their CV. I've also discounted CVs that didn't put any grades on - although to be fair, they were those who had completed their degrees fairly recently so it was still quite a significant part of their experience.

As to the rest of what you're saying I don't even know where to start. I mean you really aren't supposed to put your DOB on your CV, and a lot of CVs have the names (and by extension the gender) redacted before employers look at them as well these days, so I think we're operating on different levels of understanding of the current system.

We aren't gonna agree so let's just leave it there - I just hope OP reads it all and makes the right decision.
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#18
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#18
(Original post by piupiupiupiu)
We aren't gonna agree so let's just leave it there - I just hope OP reads it all and makes the right decision.
I have read it all but what's the right decision? I'm reading conflicting opinions. I was never awarded a 2:1 after 3 years - that was just my grade at that point as part of my 4 year masters. Although I had the option to stop at 3 years and receive a BSc.
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#19
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#19
(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
It depends on the university. Oxford and Cambridge both technically award the "Bachelor of Arts" "degree" to integrated masters' students (which can be "converted" to "Master of Art" without any additional testing in the future). I don't know if other universities actually award two degrees as well.

But the Oxbridge BA diplomas do not state the class honours as far as I know. I'm not certain how the transcripts are presented.
You get an MEng, MSci or whatever same as everyone else if you do an integrated masters at Cambridge.

But you do get a BA at the end of the third year though. And, yes, the BA doesn't show any class (or indeed the subject), that's all on the separate transcript.


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piupiupiupiu
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#20
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#20
(Original post by 0-))
I have read it all but what's the right decision? I'm reading conflicting opinions. I was never awarded a 2:1 after 3 years - that was just my grade at that point as part of my 4 year masters. Although I had the option to stop at 3 years and receive a BSc.
You can put what you got as your final grade and then you can put a breakdown underneath by way of explanation
i.e. '2.1 in years 1, 2 and 3 - 2.2 in year 4'. (or whatever the case is).
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