"Western Democracy" is stupid Watch

qwertyK
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#21
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#21
(Original post by ByEeek)
Um - no. If you want to live somewhere where people get shot by the government because it is believed they did wrong, go and live in Saudi Arabia. In the UK, thankfully we have the rule of law and we are very lucky that being shot on a whim without trial is outlawed. And it wasn't the foreign court that stopped him being deported - it was our own courts that stopped it because the way in which May tried to deport him was unlawful. All she should have done in the first instant, was follow the law. Do you not think it wonderful that our own government can be held to account by the law courts? I do. Even the PM is not above the law unlike in places like Russia and even to a point - the US.

And as for Brexit - well what exactly did we vote for? I heard we voted to leave. May's deal does just that. The people have spoken. She is following their wishes without shafting the country at the same time. Fingers crossed she gets it through.
Ha! You want her deal? You probably voted remain. Literally, her deal will make the UK a colony/puppet state of the EU. We may have just remained but without the few benefits the EU offered.

She will NEVER get it through unless a miracle happens. Nobody wants it. To some extent, I believe a second referendum is more likely than her deal getting passed!

Accountability is key, but if the person in charge is making the right decisions, I would rather they are not investigated. The courts are known to be in favour of many politicians anyway
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Davij038
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#22
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#22
(Original post by ByEeek)
Um - no. If you want to live somewhere where people get shot by the government because it is believed they did wrong, go and live in Saudi Arabia. In the UK, thankfully we have the rule of law and we are very lucky that being shot on a whim without trial is outlawed. And it wasn't the foreign court that stopped him being deported - it was our own courts that stopped it because the way in which May tried to deport him was unlawful. All she should have done in the first instant, was follow the law. Do you not think it wonderful that our own government can be held to account by the law courts? I do. Even the PM is not above the law unlike in places like Russia and even to a point - the US.

And as for Brexit - well what exactly did we vote for? I heard we voted to leave. May's deal does just that. The people have spoken. She is following their wishes without shafting the country at the same time. Fingers crossed she gets it through.
Where did I say without a trial? Qatada was found guilty.

No I want to stay in my own country thanks.

The law is simply the mouthpiece of the liberal establishment m. If I had faith in the law courts who routinely make decisions I find deplorable I would agree with you.

I highly doubt you believe the rubbish in the last paragraph. The country doesn’t support her deal, her party doesn’t support her deal and it is obviously not going to survive parliament because her MPs are full of cowards and cronies and labour is lead by an opportunist.
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ByEeek
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#23
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#23
(Original post by qwertyK)
She will NEVER get it through unless a miracle happens. Nobody wants it.
Agreed. But no one wants a hard Brexit more. Eith you live with your parents or you are rich. I can't afford for fuel and food to go up 10+% in the no deal scenario. Couldn't care less who is pulling the strings. My survival is in the balance.
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ByEeek
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Davij038)
Where did I say without a trial? Qatada was found guilty.

No I want to stay in my own country thanks.

The law is simply the mouthpiece of the liberal establishment m. If I had faith in the law courts who routinely make decisions I find deplorable I would agree with you.

I highly doubt you believe the rubbish in the last paragraph. The country doesn’t support her deal, her party doesn’t support her deal and it is obviously not going to survive parliament because her MPs are full of cowards and cronies and labour is lead by an opportunist.
But we are a liberal country. If you want to live in a society where people are punished without the rule of law feel free to go elsewhere.

As for Brexit. You must be rich. I can't afford a hard Brexit. I have my fingers crossed for the deal. I'm sunk if we get no deal.
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Cast Iron
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#25
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#25
(Original post by ByEeek)
How do you know they are legitimately high approval ratings? Were they conducted by an independent polling organisation not accountable to the government? Or are they a poll of signed up Putin supporters? How do you even know?

One hallmark of dictators is they always have very high approval ratings. If Trump had dictatorial control over the US (he is giving it a shot), he would have approval ratings of near 100%. As the US is not in a dictatorship, his approval ratings (as done independently) are only on around 41%.

Can you remember Mugabee? He had 100% approval ratings despite presiding over 1 million % inflation. Amazing!
He's not wrong you know. Even if some of the polls were altered, Putin definitely has a lot of genuine support. He's been very clever to present himself in a specific way, the defender of Russia from, in his narrative, increasingly hostile and meddling Western governments. Basically he's managing to push all the right buttons and say the right things to make those Russians who are fearful of Western intentions into supporting him.
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Davij038
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#26
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#26
(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. But no one wants a hard Brexit more. Eith you live with your parents or you are rich. I can't afford for fuel and food to go up 10+% in the no deal scenario. Couldn't care less who is pulling the strings. My survival is in the balance.
This will only be from food imported from the EU (40%) and that’s if they decide to punish us by cutting their nose to spite their face and refuse some sort of arrangement.

I’m utterly ambivalent about brexit (and rather keen on rejoining a future Nationalist EU*) and though I think the economic case for brexit is stupid, I doubt it’s going to have much if any impact on normal people. I suspect much like Trumps economic policies the liberal prophets of doom will try and find some way to take credit or paint it as a tragedy.



*whoch should that happen I expect the Soubrys , the Ununnas et al to become ardent brexiteers and not be so fussed on the obvious economic benefits.
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Davij038
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#27
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#27
(Original post by ByEeek)
But we are a liberal country. If you want to live in a society where people are punished without the rule of law feel free to go elsewhere.

As for Brexit. You must be rich. I can't afford a hard Brexit. I have my fingers crossed for the deal. I'm sunk if we get no deal.
There’s no such thing as a liberal country, only liberal people and politicians. Opinion polls suggest a majority of people are not as liberal as you think. Werec illiberal parties electorally viable in the U.K. they would be growing as they are in Europe. I want to change the law as the liberal reformers in the 70s did.

I am not rich, I just have little reason to believe the sky is falling. See my previous post
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The Champion.m4a
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#28
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#28
Your understanding of the world is...interesting.

Did you just suggest that Saudi Arabia is a US puppet democracy?

Did you just say literally that Russia and China have less poverty than the UK does?

Democracy doesn't guarantee prosperity - India is a democracy but very poor and chaotic. But if this is your argument, de democracy certainly wins hands down. As a whole, democracies are richer and with fewer poor people compared to non-dictatorship. You have rich countries that are not liberal democracies - Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Hong Kong, UAE, Qatar, the Vatican. But most of the most prosperous states - Sweden, Norway, USA, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Finland, Denmark, Canada, Switzerland, Israel - are. Whether that is a cause or an effect is worth a discussion, but to suggest democracies are economically doing worse than non-democracies is just complete ignorance.

China has a big economy because it has more than 1.3 billion people. What's their GDP per capita? Very low.
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ByEeek
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#29
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(Original post by Cast Iron)
He's not wrong you know. Even if some of the polls were altered, Putin definitely has a lot of genuine support. He's been very clever to present himself in a specific way, the defender of Russia from, in his narrative, increasingly hostile and meddling Western governments. Basically he's managing to push all the right buttons and say the right things to make those Russians who are fearful of Western intentions into supporting him.
I don't disagree. But if the public are only seeing what he wants them to see (he controls the media) is it any surprise that he paints a portrayal of the perfect leader?
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qwertyK
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#30
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#30
(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
Your understanding of the world is...interesting.

Did you just suggest that Saudi Arabia is a US puppet democracy?

Did you just say literally that Russia and China have less poverty than the UK does?

Democracy doesn't guarantee prosperity - India is a democracy but very poor and chaotic. But if this is your argument, de democracy certainly wins hands down. As a whole, democracies are richer and with fewer poor people compared to non-dictatorship. You have rich countries that are not liberal democracies - Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Hong Kong, UAE, Qatar, the Vatican. But most of the most prosperous states - Sweden, Norway, USA, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Finland, Denmark, Canada, Switzerland, Israel - are. Whether that is a cause or an effect is worth a discussion, but to suggest democracies are economically doing worse than non-democracies is just complete ignorance.

China has a big economy because it has more than 1.3 billion people. What's their GDP per capita? Very low.
No, Russia has massive levels of poverty, but that was due to the obligarchs taking over and privatising everything.

Saudi Arabia stands for everything the US is against but because they sell weapons to them and have oil they have US interests.
Trump didn't bat an eyelid about the Khasoggi killing, even though it was blatantly obvious the Saudis did it
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hiroktherock
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#31
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real democracy represent people voices , king or quine of England never got people voices in 1800s , they called national election for new leaders for people voices and ideas. lots of voices and ideas comes from national election, but this democracy represent some stupid and rubbish leadership which is not good for there own country and people, Hitler one the popular leader in Germany , he moved Germany in 2nd world war. we never find our real solution for good goververnes.
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The Champion.m4a
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#32
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#32
(Original post by qwertyK)
No, Russia has massive levels of poverty, but that was due to the obligarchs taking over and privatising everything.

Saudi Arabia stands for everything the US is against but because they sell weapons to them and have oil they have US interests.
Trump didn't bat an eyelid about the Khasoggi killing, even though it was blatantly obvious the Saudis did it
What was your point? I literally said democracy might not make a country prosperous, only that Russia clearly isn't doing better economically. So what was your "no" for? No to what?

The Saudis getting away with things the US disagrees with clearly meant they're not the puppet state. Puppet states don't disobey their master.
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anarchism101
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#33
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#33
(Original post by qwertyK)
I never said Russia was a democracy, I was criticisng democracy that we supposedly held so dear. Putin has legitimately incredibly high approval ratings. He has saved Russia from total economic crash and even civil war, although his approval rating has dipped lately over raising the retirement age.
It's not just dipped, it's nearing the lowest it's been since early in his reign. While last decade may have been economic good times for Russia (especially compared to the disasters of the 1990s), it's now in pretty heavy decline. The retirement age is where the anger is currently focused, but it's part of a broader irritation that the regime is happily frittering away money on overseas adventurism when nothing works at home. The population is in freefall.

As for civil war, the North Caucasus is a powder keg waiting to go off the moment Putin is out of the way.

This is not a country we want to emulate in any way.
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ByEeek
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#34
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#34
(Original post by hiroktherock)
real democracy represent people voices , king or quine of England never got people voices in 1800s , they called national election for new leaders for people voices and ideas. lots of voices and ideas comes from national election, but this democracy represent some stupid and rubbish leadership which is not good for there own country and people, Hitler one the popular leader in Germany , he moved Germany in 2nd world war. we never find our real solution for good goververnes.
What you don't seem to appreciate is that there are 66 million voices in this country all wanting slightly different things. No democracy is every going to satisfy everyone. Good democracy is therefore a compromise that appeals to most people. This is why "the will of the people" and other such dogmatic pieces of rhetoric are emotive and not representative of the actual will of the people, but more so used as justification to validate the views of the person stating "the people have spoken".
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PTMalewski
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#35
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#35
(Original post by qwertyK)
Just look at the UK. Supposedly democratic, but we have one of the highest poverty rates in Europe (in fact so bad the UN had to visit). In my county, people live in literal shacks (Jaywick, Essex). Our government is obsessed with spending millions on developing electric cars and banning diesels yet they spend millions on fracking. We have focused on becoming P.C, whilst we cut our police and our military can't even recruit people, and instead of something similar to Russia or China's army recruitment campaign, we have a video of a Muslim praying.

I'm a socialist economically but I am socially conservative. There is no evidence to show that Western democracy works. Half the so called democracies in the world are just puppet states for the US, Israel, or Saudi Arabia. Switzerland is probably the best example of a democracy.

But look at countries such as Russia. They are feared and are doing great. China, I don't agree with all their human rights records, but they have a massive economy.

As the UK leaves the EU, we should develop ties with not the crooked EU but countries such as Russia which aren't on the other side of the world such as Australia, but are on the same continent and where there would be massive benefits for both security and the economy to work together. We could become allies, meaning that we are guaranteed to survive most wars if the worst came to the worst.

Theresa May has been the worst prime minister I have known. And its not just brexit. It's the fact she hasn't actually done anything in power. It's brexit brexit brexit. Nothing about reversing cuts, nothing about getting rid of poverty or cutting taxes, nothing. How anyone can even support for a woman who'se only puprose is to be an extremely poor negotiator for Brexit and to create tensions with Russia.

I'm not suggesting full authoritarianism, we need our freedom, but at the same time is so called democracy really the best way to rule? A democracy is codeword for Capitalist/imperialist utopia. The only people who benefit from democracies are the mega rich.

Looking through this post, I can't see how any of this can be an argument against the Western democracy. A dictator or a king can also run wrong policies, many times it has already led to collapse of countries and kingdoms, or even kings were killed by their own people as a result.

I'm not exactly an uncritical fan of democracy, I think that more meritocratic solutions should be impremented, like politician's statements being reviewed by specialists on logic and theory of argumentation, and some being denounced as wrong, stupid or even deliberately manipulative when they are.
The main pro of democracy is that it protects you from extremes. A brilliant dictator will not make huge and brilliant reforms when it exists, but on the other hand you can't have sinister idiots like Mao Tse-Tung in charge.

Of course, there is the flaw of democracy that it can become a reign of schemers chosen by fools, which is exactly what you can observe eg. in Poland right now, but a good, complex, thought-through democratic system introduced by the old guard intellectuals chosen find a solution for the flaws of monarchy, is one of the best available political systems and probably the best that currently works.
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NatWallace
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#36
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What possible reason could there be for the UK to commit a false flag operation against Russia? To make them look worse? They already have had hundreds of sanctions many against them placed by the EU, UN (which Russia is a member of the secretary council permanently) and other NGOs. The idea that the US government committed 9/11 to invade Iraq is more feasible than your idea and that's still a crazy idea.
Russia clearly does not have a free press: In fact, Putin has been named as a "Predator of Free Press" since 2000.
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