Have your say: Think tank supports tuition fee cuts for creative university courses Watch

Poll: Should access be restricted and fees be lowered for creative courses at uni?
Yes - both (75)
14.71%
Access should be restricted but fees should not be lowered (77)
15.1%
Fees should be lowered but access should not be restricted (179)
35.1%
No - neither (179)
35.1%
candokoala
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Here's where you can post a comment about our Think tank supports cutting tuition fees for creative courses article.

Read the full Think tank supports cutting tuition fees for creative courses article and join in the discussion by posting a message below.
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PQ
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A right wing thinktank - UKOnward - who are so trustworthy that their company is about to be struck off the register at Companies house just prior to when they'd have to submit their first accounts https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11018781 and that in just over a year of existence have had 1/3 of their people resign https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...18781/officers (the MP who wrote this report)

Seems legit

To quote WonkHE
"It's an analysis riven with misunderstanding and institutional prejudice, and a proposal full of questions and problems. Is the available graduate earnings data reliable? What would be the impact on access? What about vocational degrees? Do you cut places by entry requirement, or a outcomes/value for money rating, or both? What about public services careers? What about the arts? And will male arts undergraduates really be happy with a degree apprenticeship?"
Last edited by PQ; 5 months ago
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She-Ra
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(Original post by PQ)
A right wing thinktank - UKOnward - who are so trustworthy that their company is about to be struck off the register at Companies house for non submission of documents https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11018781 and that in just over a year of existence have had 1/3 of their people resign https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...18781/officers (the MP who wrote this report)

Seems legit

To quote WonkHE
"It's an analysis riven with misunderstanding and institutional prejudice, and a proposal full of questions and problems. Is the available graduate earnings data reliable? What would be the impact on access? What about vocational degrees? Do you cut places by entry requirement, or a outcomes/value for money rating, or both? What about public services careers? What about the arts? And will male arts undergraduates really be happy with a degree apprenticeship?"
I don't see how one faculty can be affected. Everything would need to be reviewed - the entire system. That WonkHE article is great.
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nulli tertius
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I'm sorry but what is below is a classic hatchet job by someone with different political beliefs. See the comments in red

(Original post by PQ)

To quote WonkHE
"It's an analysis riven with misunderstanding and institutional prejudice, and a proposal full of questions and problems. Is the available graduate earnings data reliable? That is the published data that every other educational policy proposal uses. Why should it be questioned only when the propposal is one the commentator doesn't like? What would be the impact on access? Fewer poorer students would waste their money.What about vocational degrees? What do we mean by vocational degrees- nursing or juggling? Do you cut places by entry requirement, or a outcomes/value for money rating, or both? The authors haven't reached a conclusion. Their view is simply that places should not be demand led. What about public services careers? What about them. Why are they different to private sector careers? What about the arts? A reduction in numbers will be from the bottom up and so is unlikely to trouble the leading students who are the ones most likely to end up with professional careers in the arts.And will male arts undergraduates really be happy with a degree apprenticeship? And if they aren't happy, so what?"
I may not agree with this report, but I can spot a politically motivated attack on reasonably thought out ideas.
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PQ
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
I'm sorry but what is below is a classic hatchet job by someone with different political beliefs. See the comments in red

I may not agree with this report, but I can spot a politically motivated attack on reasonably thought out ideas.
Take it up with WonkHE. I didn't write the quote.

The use of Experimental data from LEO is far from standard for producing educational policy. That's why the data is still flagged as experimental.
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anon519284
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I really don't understand why it's not the other way round. We are clearly in need of professionals in medicine, technology etc. so why are we investing in and encouraging people to complete a degree in something like art which does not benefit society or the world in any way? Surely lowering the fees for medicine and other STEM courses would increase the interest for taking up such courses and would, therefore, benefit society and help develop the future? The UK needs more doctors; not sketches of the Lake District.
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ajj2000
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(Original post by anon519284)
I really don't understand why it's not the other way round. We are clearly in need of professionals in medicine, technology etc. so why are we investing in and encouraging people to complete a degree in something like art which does not benefit society or the world in any way? Surely lowering the fees for medicine and other STEM courses would increase the interest for taking up such courses and would, therefore, benefit society and help develop the future? The UK needs more doctors; not sketches of the Lake District.
Do you think there is a shortage of applicants for medicine?
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anon519284
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(Original post by ajj2000)
Do you think there is a shortage of applicants for medicine?
From what I understand, there is a shortage of people going into STEM related careers. In terms of medicine applicants, I have seen that people have been discouraged by the lack of support that is given to people (thus turning them away from these degrees), especially with medical degrees having such a large time frame (obviously leading to greater debt). I think that if people see that someone taking an English Literature degree gets a far lesser financial strain than someone hoping to become a neurologist, then surely this will lead to people questioning the worth of their medical studies?
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ajj2000
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(Original post by anon519284)
From what I understand, there is a shortage of people going into STEM related careers. In terms of medicine applicants, I have seen that people have been discouraged by the lack of support that is given to people (thus turning them away from these degrees), especially with medical degrees having such a large time frame (obviously leading to greater debt). I think that if people see that someone taking an English Literature degree gets a far lesser financial strain than someone hoping to become a neurologist, then surely this will lead to people questioning the worth of their medical studies?
Well, read the medical board on here and see how many amazing people go to huge effort to become doctors. You wont see the same for many other courses. In terms of STEM I've been hearing horror stories about low student numbers for years but the pay doesnt seem to reflect any massive shortfall, especially outside of the more numerate disciplines like maths, physics, engineering. Computer Science has plenty of jobs and good pay rates - no one complains about a shortage of students there.

Fine - some people are discouraged from medicine. Terrible if they cant afford to take a course they could excel at, great if they didnt have the determination to go into a very tough career which costs a fortune (mostly paid by the taxpayer) to train for. I don't think of student loans as being a debt for most people - although doctors may be one of the exceptions as they might earn enough to pay off the capital. I'll bet the average medical student earns far more than the average Eng Lit student over the course of their lives.
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04MR17
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"Not economically worthwhile"

Right, so big problem. Is the point of someone going through university education to make yourself economically worthwhile to society? No.

You can be of cultural value, engagement in culture (be it listening to music, going to the theatre, watching a busker on the street) makes people happier. Happy people are more productive and are more "economically worthwhile". So you need a degree to do these things? No. Does training and getting a qualification make you better at doing what you do? Definitely.

Does engagement in the arts develop your social skills in a society with a growing number of introverted and mentally complex individuals who struggle to fit in socially? In most cases yes.

Creative degrees can have value without having direct economic value.
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username3081694
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If the skills they gain from the degree are in demand, then fees should be lowered (whether the degree is creative or not). And access should only be restricted if there are other good opportunities for people with that skillset. There need to be plenty of entry level jobs that don't require a £30k degree.

just my take on it.
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Notoriety
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Don't work in the HE sector, so have no opinion. Do you just want me to be outraged -- without understanding the financial implications of running/funding creative courses? Nah, ya alreet.
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Moments
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What constitutes "creative"? I'd argue tech and engineering students actually end up creating far more of the world around us (pretty much everything you touch and use) than your traditional art student.
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username4316350
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(Original post by 04MR17)
"Not economically worthwhile"

Right, so big problem. Is the point of someone going through university education to make yourself economically worthwhile to society? No.

You can be of cultural value, engagement in culture (be it listening to music, going to the theatre, watching a busker on the street) makes people happier. Happy people are more productive and are more "economically worthwhile". So you need a degree to do these things? No. Does training and getting a qualification make you better at doing what you do? Definitely.

Does engagement in the arts develop your social skills in a society with a growing number of introverted and mentally complex individuals who struggle to fit in socially? In most cases yes.

Creative degrees can have value without having direct economic value.
what is more important today more creative art students the uk market doesnt want or need at 50k a pop or 50k a pop towards the nhs, policing and social care. imo number of creative students be cut and students be told to pay 50% up front. meanwhile more funding towards medicine and denistry and vets and stem and apprenticeships. app are win win take a unemployed person train them up into a skilled worker that benefits society and gov may not even have to pay for training. one questions if other departments should be cut like a+f courses increase accounting apprenticeships etc
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04MR17
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(Original post by SJW-)
what is more important today more creative art students the uk market doesnt want or need at 50k a pop or 50k a pop towards the nhs, policing and social care. imo number of creative students be cut and students be told to pay 50% up front. meanwhile more funding towards medicine and denistry and vets and stem and apprenticeships.
And students paying 50% upfront would mean that only the socio-economic elite would be accessing these courses, which is the opposite of what many of these industries need right now with their lack of social diversity.
(Original post by SJW-)
app are win win take a unemployed person train them up into a skilled worker that benefits society and gov may not even have to pay for training.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this is meant to mean?
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username4316350
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(Original post by 04MR17)
And students paying 50% upfront would mean that only the socio-economic elite would be accessing these courses, which is the opposite of what many of these industries need right now with their lack of social diversity.
Would you mind explaining exactly what this is meant to mean?
if they really wanted the degree theyd do what it takes to have the money to study it. it doing so it would cut out the time wasters the ones there 'to study'but are really there to procrastinate getting a job and to **** about for 3/4 years

apprenticeships are the way forward not only do u get more people in employment u get them trained up as well. and gov may not even have to fund studies if employers cover degree and training
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04MR17
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(Original post by SJW-)
if they really wanted the degree theyd do what it takes to have the money to study it. it doing so it would cut out the time wasters the ones there 'to study'but are really there to procrastinate getting a job and to **** about for 3/4 years
Then why not apply that to all courses? Every subject has its "time wasters".
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username4316350
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Then why not apply that to all courses? Every subject has its "time wasters".
ppl **** around on all courses but many of them are studying proper degrees

at the end of the day i would prefer 50k to go towards the nhs than to some student to go get a 2:2 in creative writing from a third rate uni. at times of cost cutting and uncertainty money should be going where its needed most. we shouldnt be giving out 50k willy nilly when nhs got hospitals to build
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swelshie
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It would be nice to be able to study what you want regardless of the cost or prospects. But people seem to be forgetting that someone has to pay for it in the end! If the student loan system allows a large proportion to benefit from the economy yet never contribute themselves then it will be unsustainable.
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04MR17
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(Original post by SJW-)
ppl **** around on all courses but many of them are studying proper degrees

at the end of the day i would prefer 50k to go towards the nhs than to some student to go get a 2:2 in creative writing from a third rate uni. at times of cost cutting and uncertainty money should be going where its needed most. we shouldnt be giving out 50k willy nilly when nhs got hospitals to build
Define "proper degree". All courses being discussed here are honours degrees to my knowledge.

What does funding a student to do a medicine degree have to do with building hospitals? Doctors don't build things.

At the end of the day 50k is not the cost of a 3 year arts degree course. 28k is. And isn't it the case that students will face the same basic living costs, regardless of their course?
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