ban on kosher and halal slaughter has come into effect in the Flanders region of Belg Watch

TheNamesBond.
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(Original post by Ciel.)
All civilised people share my beliefs. Animal wellbeing > catering to delusional people's beliefs.
I’m curious as to why you hold this belief that halal slaughterhouses don’t treat animals right, they kill them in a much more humane manner than non halal slaughterhouses.

Claiming that everyone agrees with you is you attempting to gather strength to an already weak argument, if you know your argument is correct say so instead of telling me every civilised person on this earth agrees with you, because that claim is invalid, you forgetting about the Muslim and Jewish Community?
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Ciel.
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(Original post by TommyDH)
Explain why environmental pollutants are all estrogenic then. They could easily have been androgenic, but they're not. Give me a valid reasonable explanation that makes sense, if it isn't deliberate
They clearly work better. Now answer mine, instead of dodging it again - why aren't most people affected, if they are so bad?
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TommyDH
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
I’m curious as to why you hold this belief that halal slaughterhouses don’t treat animals right, they kill them in a much more humane manner than non halal slaughterhouses.
You lost me. Care to explain how slitting their throat, hanging them upside down, punching and kicking them, torturing them slowly over a period of days while shouting satanic verses at them is more humane than quickly stunning and bolting through the brain with a quick and painless death over in a matter of seconds?

Claiming that everyone agrees with you is you attempting to gather strength to an already weak argument, if you know your argument is correct say so instead of telling me every civilised person on this earth agrees with you, because that claim is invalid, you forgetting about the Muslim and Jewish Community?
Sorry but Ciel is right, any civilized person does agree that non-stun slaughter and torture is barbaric and has no place in the modern world. Being religious does not give you free reign to break any law you like. We have animal cruelty laws, it is wrong and backwards that you're allowed to break those laws if you pretend there's a magic man flying around in the sky.
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Ciel.
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
I’m curious as to why you hold this belief that halal slaughterhouses don’t treat animals right, they kill them in a much more humane manner than non halal slaughterhouses.

Claiming that everyone agrees with you is you attempting to gather strength to an already weak argument, if you know your argument is correct say so instead of telling me every civilised person on this earth agrees with you, because that claim is invalid, you forgetting about the Muslim and Jewish Community?
https://www.peta.org/blog/cruelty-be...ual-slaughter/

Says it all.
Why would I care about their community? Their beliefs have no place in the modern world.
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VMD100
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(Original post by TommyDH)
Uh yes, organic is grass fed AND open pastured, or it isn't organic as it doesn't meet the minimum requirements to be labeled so. What are you talking about?

Uh yes, estrogen is in the water. Why are you deliberately ignoring the links?
And uh yes EDC's do exist.
You clearly don't know the rules for organic farming, so allow someone that actually knows the industry to tell you.
Firstly to be organic only 95% of the overall product you sell needs be organic. So if you're buying any form of minced meat, burger, sausage etc you can guarantee 5% of what you're eating is cheap wholesale offal they bump in there to raise the profit margin.

Similarly to be classed organic you just have to feed animals a food source that has not been sprayed with fertiliser or pesticide that isn't approved for organic use (yes thats right some are, and all organic farms use them). Therefore I can assure you most organic farms are not just grass fed. while animals must have access to the outside pending weather conditions this is the same as a non-organic farm. Cows in for winter and out when there is grass. It doesn't mean they live outside 24/7 like you think. While routine hormone use by farmers is not allowed for their own attempts at herd reproductive synchronisation and manipulation of the oestrus cycle vets are still allowed to use this at their discretion.

Your link isn't exactly peer reviewed is it, the daily mail? Here is a more reasonable and credible source: https://www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-an...-in-the-water/
The take home message is we do not yet know if this is ultimately harmful to us.

I also don't remember saying endocrine disrupting chemicals did not exist. There was a heavy link between hyperthyroidism and flame retardant materials in cats. Similarly many drugs used have the therapeutic effects of adjusting endocrine pathways, reproductive hormones amongst them.
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TommyDH
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(Original post by Ciel.)
They clearly work better. Now answer mine, instead of dodging it again - why aren't most people affected, if they are so bad?
We've been through this. They are. Also that wasn't a valid answer. "They work better".. at what? Testosterone is dropping, sperm counts are dropping. But..... only for western men. Almost as if it's a targeted campaign. I agree, it does "work better", for its intended purposes. Anyway this is pointless, you're never going to convince me to join your soyboy cult. I like working out, I like eating healthy, I like growing and getting bigger, I like being strong. Nothing you do or say will want me to surrender to girly arms and effeminate behaviour.
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TommyDH
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(Original post by VMD100)
You clearly don't know the rules for organic farming, so allow someone that actually knows the industry to tell you.
Firstly to be organic only 95% of the overall product you sell needs be organic. So if you're buying any form of minced meat, burger, sausage etc you can guarantee 5% of what you're eating is cheap wholesale offal they bump in there to raise the profit margin.
I don't eat processed food, and no 95% of the overall product doesn't need to be organic, 100% does or it isn't organic.

Similarly to be classed organic you just have to feed animals a food source that has not been sprayed with fertiliser or pesticide that isn't approved for organic use (yes thats right some are, and all organic farms use them). Therefore I can assure you most organic farms are not just grass fed
Wrong. They need to be out on pastures, with a natural diet. The only time they're allowed to supplement is for example in winter months where they're allowed to go in doors for their own good.

I've visited the farm where my meat comes from and I was very happy. Seeing them out grazing up on the Yorkshire moors. Delightful.

Your link isn't exactly peer reviewed is it, the daily mail? Here is a more reasonable and credible source: https://www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-an...-in-the-water/
The take home message is we do not yet know if this is ultimately harmful to us.
Wrong. We do know it's harmful to us. Also you admit it is in the water then? So we're agreed, there's estrogen poisoning men in the water supply. Great.

Again like above your attempts to convert me to your evil soyboy agenda won't work so your attempts are futile. I will never surrender eating a natural omnivorous diet and I won't stop going to the gym. Keep your estrogen to yourself.
Last edited by TommyDH; 2 weeks ago
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VMD100
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
I’m curious as to why you hold this belief that halal slaughterhouses don’t treat animals right, they kill them in a much more humane manner than non halal slaughterhouses.

Claiming that everyone agrees with you is you attempting to gather strength to an already weak argument, if you know your argument is correct say so instead of telling me every civilised person on this earth agrees with you, because that claim is invalid, you forgetting about the Muslim and Jewish Community?
I would ask you to find any scientific paper that supports your claim, Levels of cortisol are far higher in halal slaughtered animals than stunned.
Similarly I don't know what part of you believes that having your throat cut while fully conscious is more humane than being unconscious and rendered insensible to pain while that happens.

Not to mention cows actually have a large arterial blood supply on the back of their neck, not cut during halal slaughter - massively prolonging their conscious bleeding out time and pain.

The Islamic community does not have to eat non-stunned halal meat. Stunned halal is accepted by many, for those who do not accept this tough luck.
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TheNamesBond.
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TommyD

The animals are still alive when stunned, stunning means drilling a bolt into the animals head until unconscious, we don’t know if it feels pain or not, we like to assume it doesn’t, according to religious laws it is only allowed for an animal to be killed when it is not injured and is healthy, you cannot rule out halal or kosher meat because you think the animals don’t feel additional pain when stunned, what you and Ciel. are saying is that the religious beliefs of many across the globe is not as important as your hunch that animals don’t suffer pain when stunned, you’re willing to trade the equality and fairness of billions across the world for a hunch.
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VMD100
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(Original post by TommyDH)
I don't eat processed food, and no 95% of the overall product doesn't need to be organic, 100% does or it isn't organic.


Wrong. They need to be out on pastures, with a natural diet. The only time they're allowed to supplement is for example in winter months where they're allowed to go in doors for their own good


Wrong. We do know it's harmful to us.
Here goes... Why argue with people that know the legislation.

'You can only label pre-packed foods ‘organic’ if at least 95% of the ingredients are organic.'
Lifted directly from the UK governments website:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/organic-...abelling-rules

Just so you know natural diet means any plant based product, including soya. And magically you have changed from they have to be raised outside to only raised outside sometimes.

Just as a Daily Mail article isn't scientific proof - neither is a huffington post article.
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TheNamesBond.
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(Original post by VMD100)
I would ask you to find any scientific paper that supports your claim, Levels of cortisol are far higher in halal slaughtered animals than stunned.
Similarly I don't know what part of you believes that having your throat cut while fully conscious is more humane than being unconscious and rendered insensible to pain while that happens.

Not to mention cows actually have a large arterial blood supply on the back of their neck, not cut during halal slaughter - massively prolonging their conscious bleeding out time and pain.

The Islamic community does not have to eat non-stunned halal meat. Stunned halal is accepted by many, for those who do not accept this tough luck.
Your claim that when an animal is stunned it does not feel pain is not fact, it’s your opinion, go ahead and say you feel comfortable exchanging the rights of billions across the world for animal rights which by the way is a hunch that they don’t feel pain when stunned.
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Abu the Baker
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Can anyone please define halal slaughter plz
Thanks
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VMD100
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
TommyD

The animals are still alive when stunned, stunning means drilling a bolt into the animals head until unconscious, we don’t know if it feels pain or not, we like to assume it doesn’t, according to religious laws it is only allowed for an animal to be killed when it is not injured and is healthy, you cannot rule out halal or kosher meat because you think the animals don’t feel additional pain when stunned, what you and Ciel. are saying is that the religious beliefs of many across the globe is not as important as your hunch that animals don’t suffer pain when stunned, you’re willing to trade the equality and fairness of billions across the world for a hunch.
Just to respond to this as a vet student that actually has education in this field

Stunning can be captive bolt (where a metal bolt shoots through the brain causing mass destruction and rendering an animal insensible to pain) or electrical - where large currents are applied that disrupt brain activity preventing any neurological transmission of feelings of pain.

Animals are scientifically proven to show additional pain when non-stunned.
The religious beliefs of many mean nothing to me, I believe in promoting good animal welfare through evidence based research.
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Ciel.
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
TommyD

The animals are still alive when stunned, stunning means drilling a bolt into the animals head until unconscious, we don’t know if it feels pain or not, we like to assume it doesn’t, according to religious laws it is only allowed for an animal to be killed when it is not injured and is healthy, you cannot rule out halal or kosher meat because you think the animals don’t feel additional pain when stunned, what you and Ciel. are saying is that the religious beliefs of many across the globe is not as important as your hunch that animals don’t suffer pain when stunned, you’re willing to trade the equality and fairness of billions across the world for a hunch.
"A gun fires a metal bolt into the brain of the animal causing the animal to lose consciousness immediately." You don't feel pain when you are unconcious.
It's not my opinion, that's what research shows, and that's what animal experts believe, surely they know better than a little insignificant boy like you.
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VMD100
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
Your claim that when an animal is stunned it does not feel pain is not fact, it’s your opinion, go ahead and say you feel comfortable exchanging the rights of billions across the world for animal rights which by the way is a hunch that they don’t feel pain when stunned.
Here is a list of studies scientifically proving my claim
But don't worry its just my opinion not fact:

Octavio Oliveira, S.E., Dalla Costa, F.A., Gibson, T.J., Dalla Costa, O.A., Coldebella, A., and Gregory, N.G. (2018). Evaluation of brain damage resulting from penetrating and non–penetrating stunning in Nelore Cattle using pneumatically powered captive bolt guns. Meat Science. 145, 347-351. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.meatsci.2018.07.016
Gibson, T.J., Rebelo, R.B., Gowers, T.A., and Chancellor, N. (2017) Electroencephalographic assessment of concussive non- penetrative captive-bolt stunning of turkeys. British Poultry Science. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00071668.2017.1401215
Octavio Oliveira, S.E., Gregory, N.G., Dalla Costa, F.A., Gibson, T.J., Paranhos da Costa, M. (2017) Efficiency of low versus high airline pressure in stunning cattle with a pneumatically powered penetrating captive bolt gun. Meat Science. 130, 64-68. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.meatsci.2017.04.007
Gibson, T.J., Taylor, A.H., and Gregory, N.G. (2016). Assessment of the effectiveness of head-only and back-of-the-head electrical stunning of chickens. British Poultry Science: 1-11. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...8.2016.1156648
Limon, G., Gozales-Gustavson, E.A., and Gibson, T.J. (2016). Investigation of the humaneness of slaughter methods for guinea pigs (Cavia porcelus) in the Andean region. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science. 1-14. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...5.2016.1138116
Gibson, T. J., et al. (2015). "Pathophysiology of penetrating captive bolt stunning in Alpacas (Vicugna pacos)." Meat Science 100: 227-231. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.meatsci.2014.10.022
Gibson, T. J., et al. (2015). "Pathophysiology of free-bullet slaughter of horses and ponies." Meat Science 108: 120-124. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.meatsci.2015.06.007
Gibson, T. J., et al. (2015). "Effect of neck cut position on time to collapse in halal slaughtered cattle without stunning." Meat Science 110: 310-314.http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.meatsci.2015.03.026
Sharp, T.M., McLeod, S.R., Leggett, K.E.A., and Gibson, T.J. (2015). Evaluation of spring-powered captive bolt guns for dispatch of kangaroo in-pouch young. Wildlife Research. 41 (7), 623-632. http://dx.doi.org/10.1071/WR14094
Gibson, T.J., Mason, C.W., Spence, J.Y., Barker, H., and Gregory, N.G. (2015). Factors affecting penetrating captive bolt gun performance. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science. 18 (3), 222-238. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...05.2014.980579
McKeegan, D. E. F., Reimert, H. G. M., Hindle, V. A., Boulcott, P., Sparrey, J. M., Wathes, C. M., ... & Gerritzen, M. A. (2013). Physiological and behavioral responses of poultry exposed to gas-filled high expansion foam. Poultry science, 92(5), 1145-1154.
Gibson, T.J., Ridler, A.L., Lamb, C.R., Williams, A., Giles, S., and Gregory, N.G. (2012). Preliminary evaluation of the effectiveness of captive bolt guns as a killing method without exsanguination for horned and un-horned sheep. Animal Welfare. 21, Supplement 2, 35-42.
Gregory, N.G., von Wenzlawowicz, M., von Holleben, K., Fielding, HR., Gibson, TJ., and Kolesar, R. (2012). Complications during Halal slaughter and Shechita in cattle. Animal Welfare. 21, Supplement 2, 81-86.
Johnson, C.B., Gibson, T.J., Stafford, K.J., and Mellor, D.J. (2012). Pain perception at slaughter. Animal Welfare. 21, Supplement 2, 113-122.
Limon, G., Guitian, J., & Gregory, N. G. (2012). A review of the humaneness of puntilla as a slaughter method. Animal Welfare, 21, 3-8. doioi 10.7120/096272812x13353700593248
McKeegan, D. E. F., Sparks, N. H. C., Sandilands, V., Demmers, T. G. M., Boulcott, P., & Wathes, C. M. (2011). Physiological responses of laying hens during whole-house killing with carbon dioxide. British poultry science, 52(6), 645-657.[s1]
Limon, G., Guitian, J., & Gregory, N. G. (2010). An evaluation of the humaneness of puntilla in cattle. Meat Science, 84, 352-355.
Limon, G., Guitian, J., & Gregory, N. G. (2009). A note on the slaughter of llamas in Bolivia by the puntilla method. Meat Science, 82(3), 405-406. doiOI 10.1016/j.meatsci.2009.01.022
MCKEEGAN, D. E., ABEYESINGHE, S. M., MCLEMAN, M. A., LOWE, J. C., DEMMERS, T. G., WHITE, R. P., KRANEN, R. W., VAN BEMMEL, H., LANKHAAR, J. A. & WATHES, C. M. (2007) Controlled atmosphere stunning of broiler chickens. II. Effects on behaviour, physiology and meat quality in a commercial processing plant. British Poultry Science 48: 430-442. PubMed ID 17701496 http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00071660701543097
ABEYESINGHE, S. M., MCKEEGAN, D. E., MCLEMAN, M. A., LOWE, J. C., DEMMERS, T. G., WHITE, R. P., KRANEN, R. W., VAN BEMMEL, H., LANKHAAR, J. A. & WATHES, C. M. (2007) Controlled atmosphere stunning of broiler chickens. I. Effects on behaviour, physiology and meat quality in a pilot scale system at a processing plant. British Poultry Science 48: 406-423. PubMed ID 17701494. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00071660701543089
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Ciel.
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(Original post by Abu the Baker)
Can anyone please define halal slaughter plz
Thanks
"Animals killed halal cannot be stunned before their throats are cut, which means that many animals fight and gasp for their last breath, struggling to stand while the blood drains from their necks." There you go!
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TheNamesBond.
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(Original post by Ciel.)
"A gun fires a metal bolt into the brain of the animal causing the animal to lose consciousness immediately." You don't feel pain when you are unconcious.
It's not my opinion, that's what research shows, and that's what animal experts believe, surely they know better than a little insignificant boy like you.
The unconscious brain still registers pain, they may feel it but obviously be unable to show it, your little wise crack is quite amusing considering you’re unable to put a point across without sounding like a 2 year old on a tantrum.
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TommyDH
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(Original post by VMD100)
Here goes... Why argue with people that know the legislation.

'You can only label pre-packed foods ‘organic’ if at least 95% of the ingredients are organic.'
Lifted directly from the UK governments website:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/organic-...abelling-rules

Just so you know natural diet means any plant based product, including soya. And magically you have changed from they have to be raised outside to only raised outside sometimes.

Just as a Daily Mail article isn't scientific proof - neither is a huffington post article.
How do you make a steak only 95% organic you buffoon? xD you're insane. Nobody is injecting my steaks with 5% of rubbish I assure you. I've been to the farm and they are fed 100% grass-fed (and clover) diet so I don't even know what you're arguing or what your point even is. I'm not going to just shrug my shoulders and adopt a girly diet just because you make up stories about 5% of my meat being injected with soy. Which it isn't you're being ridiculous.

And oh? SO you're claiming estrogen isn't having an impact? Oh wait let me guess, "University of Exeter studies aren't a valid source". It's a well known scientific fact that environmental estrogens are feminising men, and in particular is having catastrophic effects on ecology too. But let me guess, University of Florida studies and ChemGroup scientists aren't valid sources either.
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Ciel.
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
The unconscious brain still registers pain, they may feel it but obviously be unable to show it, your little wise crack is quite amusing considering you’re unable to put a point across without sounding like a 2 year old on a tantrum.
You don't feel pain when you are unconcious. 😆 Get over it, the dark ages of halal meat are coming to an end, thank god for that.
Last edited by Ciel.; 2 weeks ago
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VMD100
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(Original post by TommyDH)
How do you make a steak only 95% organic you buffoon? xD you're insane. Nobody is injecting my steaks with 5% of rubbish I assure you. I've been to the farm and they are fed 100% grass-fed (and clover) diet so I don't even know what you're arguing or what your point even is. I'm not going to just shrug my shoulders and adopt a girly diet just because you make up stories about 5% of my meat being injected with soy. Which it isn't you're being ridiculous.

And oh? SO you're claiming estrogen isn't having an impact? Oh wait let me guess, "University of Exeter studies aren't a valid source". It's a well known scientific fact that environmental estrogens are feminising men, and in particular is having catastrophic effects on ecology too. But let me guess, University of Florida studies and ChemGroup scientists aren't valid sources either.
The only meat you eat is steak? The 5% is a UK government rule, if you are buying direct from one farm no.But we are talking about organic food as a whole, not you as an individual. Nobody said meat is being injected with soy.

I'm claiming we don't know the effect estrogen from the water course is having on men. We can take educated guesses on its effect but there is not enough conclusive evidence.
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