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the bear
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#21
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#21
i believe that it sets you up for the day & is a vital part of maintaining a healthy weight....

oh sorry !!

:emo:
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TommyDH
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#22
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(Original post by DJKL)
Can you name a particular EU piece of legislation that currently impacts upon our freedom of speech or is your statement merely gleaned from the tabloids?
70% of our laws are dictated by despots in Brussels. And yes, the EU has increasingly been encroaching on rights and freedoms such as freedom of speech. Take the EU's draconian NetzDG law for example, that states companies must stop people from expressing "wrongthink" opinions online or they'll be fined. How is that not impacting freedom of speech?

We now have a dystopian law that states you can to to prison for having an [wrongthink] opinion that somebody perceives to be hateful, even if it isn't. So if you post a fact... and that fact hurts somebody's feelings.. you can now go to prison for it.

On top of that, the EU now has blasphemy laws. You can go to jail.. for committing blasphemy. A backwards barbaric law we haven't seen since medieval times.

I want to see the EU burn and suffer, I can't wait until it collapses and its autocrats dragged out in the streets and hung upside down then flayed alive just like their role model Mussolini.
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DJKL
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#23
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(Original post by TommyDH)
70% of our laws are dictated by despots in Brussels. And yes, the EU has increasingly been encroaching on rights and freedoms such as freedom of speech. Take the EU's draconian NetzDG law for example, that states companies must stop people from expressing "wrongthink" opinions online or they'll be fined. How is that not impacting freedom of speech?

We now have a dystopian law that states you can to to prison for having an [wrongthink] opinion that somebody perceives to be hateful, even if it isn't. So if you post a fact... and that fact hurts somebody's feelings.. you can now go to prison for it.

On top of that, the EU now has blasphemy laws. You can go to jail.. for committing blasphemy. A backwards barbaric law we haven't seen since medieval times.

I want to see the EU burn and suffer, I can't wait until it collapses and its autocrats dragged out in the streets and hung upside down then flayed alive just like their role model Mussolini.
What,pray, has the ECHR got to do with the EU or EU membership?

How precisely is NetzDG an EU law?
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VMD100
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#24
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(Original post by DJKL)
What trade deals do you think we might strike either with the EU or anyone else if we do not pay our existing commitments under our existing , in effect, trade deal with the EU. Non payment (Albeit the figure will possibly be less as I think it is currently calculated based through to the end of 2020) would imho be extremely penny wise pound foolish in the longer term.
In your opinion yes, and as to what trade deals:
Well half of Southern Irelands farming produce comes to us, leaving that agreement means we could always source this from lower cost areas such as Brazil if they refused to trade (which they obviously wouldn't it would screw their agricultural sector through the roof), We import a ridiculous amount of German cars and help prop up their motor industry, at a time when this industry is already under threat I suspect they won't want to stop trade.

Frankly there are many current trade deals that are just bad for the country. A lot of our farming produce we have EU trade deals with individual countries guaranteeing they will buy X of our produce and we will buy Y of theirs. This sometimes leads to for example us selling them milk, just to buy their milk back so we do not have a shortfall. Less of this is good as far as I am concerned.
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DJKL
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#25
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#25
(Original post by VMD100)
In your opinion yes, and as to what trade deals:
Well half of Southern Irelands farming produce comes to us, leaving that agreement means we could always source this from lower cost areas such as Brazil if they refused to trade (which they obviously wouldn't it would screw their agricultural sector through the roof), We import a ridiculous amount of German cars and help prop up their motor industry, at a time when this industry is already under threat I suspect they won't want to stop trade.

Frankly there are many current trade deals that are just bad for the country. A lot of our farming produce we have EU trade deals with individual countries guaranteeing they will buy X of our produce and we will buy Y of theirs. This sometimes leads to for example us selling them milk, just to buy their milk back so we do not have a shortfall. Less of this is good as far as I am concerned.
Well if the farming industry actually survives the disruption to get to this utopia, however is it not Minford, one of the Economists for Brexit, who expects a no deal Brexit to destroy British agriculture and manufacturing?

The fact that most people appear to forget is transitions have costs, smaller farmers tend to be asset rich cash poor from my experience (over the years I have prepared accounts for a few farming clients), do they have deep enough pockets to still be in business post the disruption that No Deal will bring both to their exports and to their imports?

Smaller business entities tend not to carry large liquid reserves so are particularly vulnerable, in my own main role ( Part time FD for a Property Group) we have been accumulating cash in anticipation of tenant issues (commercial property leased to about 120 smaller business tenants) and will have circa £500k cash reserves come March rather than our more normal £200k level, but this is rare and is likely because I am an old accountant who is risk averse having experienced a few economic downturns throughout my career.

From those others in business I meet, most will be lucky if they have enough to cover 3-6 months of severe disruption, and of course in the JIT motor industry large quantities of smaller components are sourced from SME UK companies.

The UK motor industry if say gearboxes or other components are held up from the EU will not continue purchasing these UK sourced smaller components if they cannot readily finish the cars on the lines, JIT is what is says, JIT, and warehouse stockpiling will only help in a limited way, for one thing there is limited UK availability of warehousing. (I actually spent Monday looking at what was locally available to buy in Edinburgh/Central belt as buying would possibly be a decent thing to do at present, there is certainly virtually no spare supply up here)

A no deal will have some pretty nasty disruptions in the immediate aftermath and large numbers of thinly capitalised business entities will fold, the spin offs will be large down to that burger/sandwich van that sits in the corner of an industrial estate which relies on the workers buying from it at lunchtime, if the workers are not there the van has no customers, local newsagents get less trade, the impact to local communities, especially those heavily reliant on particular impacted industries/activities will not be pleasant.

Meanwhile at the macro level you can convince yourself that this is all for the good, the impacted smaller entities, employees and the households they support I expect will be somewhat less sanguine.

You must know the saying, you break it you buy it, well HMG looks like it is going to be doing a fair bit of breaking and have a pretty big bill re the buying.
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ByEeek
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#26
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#26
(Original post by TommyDH)
70% of our laws are dictated by despots in Brussels. And yes, the EU has increasingly been encroaching on rights and freedoms such as freedom of speech. Take the EU's draconian NetzDG law for example, that states companies must stop people from expressing "wrongthink" opinions online or they'll be fined. How is that not impacting freedom of speech?



We now have a dystopian law that states you can to to prison for having an [wrongthink] opinion that somebody perceives to be hateful, even if it isn't. So if you post a fact... and that fact hurts somebody's feelings.. you can now go to prison for it.



On top of that, the EU now has blasphemy laws. You can go to jail.. for committing blasphemy. A backwards barbaric law we haven't seen since medieval times.



I want to see the EU burn and suffer, I can't wait until it collapses and its autocrats dragged out in the streets and hung upside down then flayed alive just like their role model Mussolini.

There is nothing like some facts to spoil a good conspiracy.

Firstly, we do not take 70% of our laws from the EU.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36473105


Secondly, we have had our human rights vastly improved by the EU. The human rights act gives everyone equal basic rights under the law. The UK government would have never granted them by itself. GPDR also gives us rights to our own data which in the US in unheard of. In the US it is perfectly acceptable for tech companies to spy on you and then sell that data to whoever they like without your knowledge.

Thirdly, NetzDG law is a German law, not an EU law or for that matter a UK law.

Forthly, the EU does not have blasphemy laws. It is down to each sovereign state to implement their own laws (or not) on blasphemy.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/...000485_EN.html

Fifthly, police were asked by the UK government to record a variety of new offences for the purposes of data collection and analysis, not for the purposes of prosecution. Nothing to do with the EU.

Sixthly - the EU does not have blasphemy laws. Could you please tell me which directive you are talking about?

Seventhly - the EU did burn and collapse about 75 years ago. It was called the second world war. Millions of people were killed. It was horrendous. In fact, it was so horrendous that in the aftermath, the countries of Europe came together in an alliance with the hope that such atrocities could never happen again.

Now we have ignorant fools like you who seem to want to repeat the mistakes of history all over again. You Sir, are an idiot and a fool.
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#27
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#27
brace for impact...
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ColinDent
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#28
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(Original post by zainabxxo)
I don't wanna leave, Teresa may does my headinnnnnnnn, I want Corbynn
Who also wishes to leave.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#29
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#29
lol this thread is asking for Civil War 2.0
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ByEeek
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#30
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#30
(Original post by ColinDent)
Who also wishes to leave.
Who wants to force a general election over the issue. I genuinely have no idea whether he wants to leave or not. Has he actually stated his preference in black and white?
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paul514
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#31
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#31
(Original post by ByEeek)
Who wants to force a general election over the issue. I genuinely have no idea whether he wants to leave or not. Has he actually stated his preference in black and white?
He’s been Euro skeptic all his life so yes he does want to leave.

However I believe he thinks gaining power over parliament to be more important
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ColinDent
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#32
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#32
(Original post by ByEeek)
Who wants to force a general election over the issue. I genuinely have no idea whether he wants to leave or not. Has he actually stated his preference in black and white?
Yes, he wants a general election and if labour win he wants to renegotiate the deal not remain as some of you poor, deluded students believe. For you guys he's a wolf in sheep's clothing, for those of us a bit longer in the tooth he's a danger to the defence and security of the country.
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ByEeek
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#33
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#33
(Original post by ColinDent)
Yes, he wants a general election and if labour win he wants to renegotiate the deal not remain as some of you poor, deluded students believe. For you guys he's a wolf in sheep's clothing, for those of us a bit longer in the tooth he's a danger to the defence and security of the country.
The delusion must therefore be with you and Corbyn. What is it about "You have your deal. We will not renegotiate." from the EU side that you don't understand?

Also, Corbyn wants into the Customs Union which is more on the remain side of Mays's deal.
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ColinDent
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#34
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#34
(Original post by ByEeek)
The delusion must therefore be with you and Corbyn. What is it about "You have your deal. We will not renegotiate." from the EU side that you don't understand?

Also, Corbyn wants into the Customs Union which is more on the remain side of Mays's deal.
You would have to ask Mr Corbyn on his views but personally at this very moment I would take the no deal option, leave, then see just how little the EU wish to renegotiate.
Mr Corbyn also wishes to stop free movement so I'm afraid he's away with the fairies.
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TommyDH
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#35
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#35
(Original post by ByEeek)
snip.
-wrong. majority of our laws are either made directly by, or are influenced by, the despots in the EU. so even if "our parliament" brings a law into being, it's influenced by the EU dictators. they're under orders.

-Wrong, we had human rights long before that disgusting evil EU existed. human rights that we no longer have.
where's our free speech gone?
where's freedom of expression gone?
freedom of association?
where's innocent until proven guilty gone?
What a coincidence all these have disappeared since the evil EUSSR took over

-Wrong, again, influenced/ordered by

-Wrong. Go to the EU mainland and criticize Mohammed, hell, go to London and criticize Mohammed. See you in jail, blasphemer!

-Wrong. They're doing it because they're authoritarian scum that want to lock people up for wrongthink thought crimes

-Journalists got deported for blasphemy. All they said was "God is gay".. and got arrested and deported for it. FOr blasphemy! So yes, blasphemy is illegal in the EU now. TYRANNY

-The EU didn't even exist 75 years ago what are you talking about you complete lunatic? Are you talking about the League of nations? That was the precursor to the UN, not the EU. The precursor to the EU would be the Bilderberg Group, which, ironically, was created by the Nazis! Explains why the EU is so totalitarian I guess!

Screw the EU. Authoritarianism is a bane on civilization. Centuries of living in a liberal Democracy destroyed in just a few decades by jumped up despots in Brussels. Those "people" you're defending are the same people who caused WWII in the first place, and they're doing it again! Tyranny ALWAYS ends in violence.

I want to see the EU suffer and burn harder than the USSR and third reich ever did. Maybe after the third time they'll learn their lesson!

Freedom will prevail. You and your beloved EU authoritarians will never destroy liberalism no matter how much you want to. Napoleon, the Kaiser, Hitler & Stalin all failed, and you'll fail again.
Last edited by TommyDH; 1 week ago
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DJKL
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#36
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#36
(Original post by TommyDH)
-wrong. majority of our laws are either made directly by, or are influenced by, the despots in the EU. so even if "our parliament" brings a law into being, it's influenced by the EU dictators. they're under orders.

-Wrong, we had human rights long before that disgusting evil EU existed. human rights that we no longer have.
where's our free speech gone?
where's freedom of expression gone?
freedom of association?
where's innocent until proven guilty gone?
What a coincidence all these have disappeared since the evil EUSSR took over

-Wrong, again, influenced/ordered by

-Wrong. Go to the EU mainland and criticize Mohammed, hell, go to London and criticize Mohammed. See you in jail, blasphemer!

-Wrong. They're doing it because they're authoritarian scum that want to lock people up for wrongthink thought crimes

-Journalists got deported for blasphemy. All they said was "God is gay".. and got arrested and deported for it. FOr blasphemy! So yes, blasphemy is illegal in the EU now. TYRANNY

-The EU didn't even exist 75 years ago what are you talking about you complete lunatic? Are you talking about the League of nations? That was the precursor to the UN, not the EU. The precursor to the EU would be the Bilderberg Group, which, ironically, was created by the Nazis! Explains why the EU is so totalitarian I guess!

Screw the EU. Authoritarianism is a bane on civilization. Centuries of living in a liberal Democracy destroyed in just a few decades by jumped up despots in Brussels. Those "people" you're defending are the same people who caused WWII in the first place, and they're doing it again! Tyranny ALWAYS ends in violence.

I want to see the EU suffer and burn harder than the USSR and third reich ever did. Maybe after the third time they'll learn their lesson!

Freedom will prevail. You and your beloved EU authoritarians will never destroy liberalism no matter how much you want to. Napoleon, the Kaiser, Hitler & Stalin all failed, and you'll fail again.
Where's the beef?
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ByEeek
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#37
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#37
(Original post by TommyDH)
-wrong. majority of our laws are either made directly by, or are influenced by, the despots in the EU. so even if "our parliament" brings a law into being, it's influenced by the EU dictators. they're under orders.
No sh1t sherlock. Are you saying that if someone else has a good idea we should not do it ourselves because well, that would be them imposing their ways on us? You do realise that the UK's greatness comes from taking other people's ideas and capitalising on them? Scotland introduced a tax on plastic bags. Does that mean they imposed their will on us because we now do the same in England?

(Original post by TommyDH)
-Wrong, we had human rights long before that disgusting evil EU existed. human rights that we no longer have.
where's our free speech gone?
where's freedom of expression gone?
freedom of association?
where's innocent until proven guilty gone?
What a coincidence all these have disappeared since the evil EUSSR took over
Um - we didn't. You didn't have the right to a family life or privacy before the Human Rights Act. The government at the behest of the Home Secretary could effectively do whatever it liked to private citizens (and did) and there was little or no recourse through the courts. Why do you think it took 30 years to get an inquest for Bloody Sunday where the British army just decided to start firing on a protest march?

As for freedom of speech. That was an act of Parliament implemented by the UK government. Nothing to do with the EU. And no, you don't have the right to hang out with extreme right wing violent groups and no, you don't have the right to say that someone should leave the country because of the colour of their skin. Is that what you want in this country? People threatening others simply because they don't like they look of them? I don't. Go to the US if that is the society you want to live in.

(Original post by TommyDH)
-Wrong. Go to the EU mainland and criticize Mohammed, hell, go to London and criticize Mohammed. See you in jail, blasphemer!
You can criticise Mohammed in the UK. There is no law against that. And in France, there is no problem with criticising Mohammed either. Have you not herd of Charlie Hebdo? https://charliehebdo.fr/en/

All perfectly legal under French law. No doubt there are some sovereign countries in the EU that implement blasphemy laws - I don't know. But there is no EU directive that forbids it. So why are you saying that the EU has imposed blasphemy laws?

(Original post by TommyDH)
-Journalists got deported for blasphemy. All they said was "God is gay".. and got arrested and deported for it. FOr blasphemy! So yes, blasphemy is illegal in the EU now. TYRANNY
Where? I did a quick Google and could only find links to reports of Saudi Arabia deporting people for blasphemy. You do know Saudi Arabia isn't in the EU don't you? But regardless, it is down to individual states to implement their own laws on this issue. Nothing to do with the EU. You need to direct your criticism at those countries, not the EU. But I do ask the question, why do you feel the need to say that God is gay? I mean - what a pointless thing to say. All you are going to do is upset people. Why do you want to do that? Just be nice.

(Original post by TommyDH)
-The EU didn't even exist 75 years ago what are you talking about you complete lunatic? Are you talking about the League of nations? That was the precursor to the UN, not the EU. The precursor to the EU would be the Bilderberg Group, which, ironically, was created by the Nazis! Explains why the EU is so totalitarian I guess!
You completely missed my point. 75 years ago, the whole of Europe was at war. Google "Second World War" there is lots of info about it. One of the founding reasons for creating the EU was to prevent such a war happening again. If you are friends with your neighbours, you are unlikely to fight them. You seem to want to fight them. Why? What have they done to us?

(Original post by TommyDH)
Screw the EU. Authoritarianism is a bane on civilization.
So what is your solution? Despotism? Feel free to live in Afghanistan or Somalia if you want to live in a state that has no control over anyone.

(Original post by TommyDH)
I want to see the EU suffer and burn harder than the USSR and third reich ever did. Maybe after the third time they'll learn their lesson!
Ahh - the good old USSR. That last bastion and example of a glorious civilisation where everyone did and thought exactly as the government told them to. Every had enough which was mostly nothing. I am sorry but if you are holding up the USSR as an example of a non-authoritarian civilisation, you are living in cloud cukooland.

Are you even British? I am guessing not. You call the EU they. Well British people are part of the EU so you must be an outsider. Why not return back to the rock you crawled out from under?
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TommyDH
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#38
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#38
(Original post by ByEeek)
snip
-Wrong, we're literally forced to adopt draconian laws. Draconian laws aren't even a good idea so your analogy is retarded

-Wrong. Magna Carta, Bill of Rights 1689. WE had more rights before the EU than we do now, that's for sure.

-Wrong. "Be nice", ah, tyranny with a smile on its face. "Don't say anything except things I authorize you to say or you'll be put to death" ~ said with a smile. The truth is often offensive, without the right to offend you don't live in a free society, but a sick and dying one.

-Wrong

-Wrong. Also, you're suggesting saying "God is gay" isn't nice, well doesn't that make you homophobic? Aren't you the one committing a hate crime now by suggesting there's something wrong with being gay? See where your PC tyranny gets you?

-Strawman. Also ironically, it is the EU creating the same tensions that led to these wars in the first place.

-Strawman. Again ironically that's the kind of place you're turning the UK into; and you already know my solution. My solution is liberalism. You know, that antique relic, the polar opposite of totalitarianism.

-You misread.

I oppose tyranny and abhor authoritarianism. The EU is not a liberal order and so I will never accept it and I will always reject it, disrespect it and if/when the time comes, fight it.
Attachment 792598
Last edited by TommyDH; 1 week ago
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hello_shawn
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#39
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#39
(Original post by TommyDH)
-Wrong, we're literally forced to adopt draconian laws. Draconian laws aren't even a good idea so your analogy is retarded

-Wrong. Magna Carta, Bill of Rights 1689. WE had more rights before the EU than we do now, that's for sure.

-Wrong. "Be nice", ah, tyranny with a smile on its face. "Don't say anything except things I authorize you to say or you'll be put to death" ~ said with a smile. The truth is often offensive, without the right to offend you don't live in a free society, but a sick and dying one.

-Wrong

-Wrong. Also, you're suggesting saying "God is gay" isn't nice, well doesn't that make you homophobic? Aren't you the one committing a hate crime now by suggesting there's something wrong with being gay? See where your PC tyranny gets you?

-Strawman. Also ironically, it is the EU creating the same tensions that led to these wars in the first place.

-You misread.

I oppose tyranny and abhor authoritarianism. The EU is not a liberal order and so I will never accept it and I will always reject it, disrespect it and if/when the time comes, fight it.
Attachment 792598
Thanks for the snip m8, there are those who can't see where they're going and don't care, they're on my block list so I don't have to hear their crap
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ByEeek
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#40
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#40
(Original post by TommyDH)
-Wrong, we're literally forced to adopt draconian laws. Draconian laws aren't even a good idea so your analogy is retarded

-Wrong. Magna Carta, Bill of Rights 1689. WE had more rights before the EU than we do now, that's for sure.

-Wrong. "Be nice", ah, tyranny with a smile on its face. "Don't say anything except things I authorize you to say or you'll be put to death" ~ said with a smile. The truth is often offensive, without the right to offend you don't live in a free society, but a sick and dying one.

-Wrong

-Wrong. Also, you're suggesting saying "God is gay" isn't nice, well doesn't that make you homophobic? Aren't you the one committing a hate crime now by suggesting there's something wrong with being gay? See where your PC tyranny gets you?

-Strawman. Also ironically, it is the EU creating the same tensions that led to these wars in the first place.

-Strawman. Again ironically that's the kind of place you're turning the UK into; and you already know my solution. My solution is liberalism. You know, that antique relic, the polar opposite of totalitarianism.

-You misread.

I oppose tyranny and abhor authoritarianism. The EU is not a liberal order and so I will never accept it and I will always reject it, disrespect it and if/when the time comes, fight it.
Attachment 792598
You seem to be missing the idea of how these debate things work. Just calling me wrong or strawman isn't going to cut the mustard. At least back up your arguments with evidence.

You suggested we should adopt classic liberalism. Based on your link, that is civil liberties under the rule of law with economic liberalism. So So just exactly how are we not that now? In a liberal society you are free to be religious, gay, straight whatever you like and the law protects you from persecution of others. We have a rule of law which we do and we are economically liberal which is why our economy does so well. What are you suggesting?

The cut of your arguments seems to be that you want free speech which is fine, but under your idea are you happy for Muslim clerics to indoctrinate young impressionable boys and men to become suicide bombers? All in the name of free speech you understand?

You also seem to be mixing up authoritarianism with the rule of law. We have the rule of law. Laws are passed by our politicians and if we don't like those laws, we can elect different politicians to change or update them. Authoritarianism is what we have in Russia (and to an extent, the US) right now where the President decrees a rule and then everyone must follow it without question. In this country, you have the right to criticise the government (you get arrested in the Russia if you do that), you can write to your MP or lobby MPs and try to persuade them to pass different laws. Private citizens can't do that in an authoritarian state. Doing that in an authoritarian state gets you locked up or killed. We do not live in an authoritarian state. Get over it.
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