Why will no one hire me? 2+ years out of uni with a good math degree.

Hello,

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EDIT: Some new information that I want to share.

So far this thread has received some super valuable information that I hope will also be useful to other people now and in the future. Even information from actual interviewers. I am glad I made this thread despite some of the negative comments. I am not trying to be negative or arrogant and don't want this on my thread. Feel free to tell me how arrogant I am but at least leave some constructive feedback that people can learn from, and do so with good intentions, not just to have a dig at someone.

I have volunteered for 3 months (this was over a year ago now) and I have also done a 3 month placement paying minimum wage that was just admin. I don't consider this to have been useful, or that it is what I need in the next stage of my development, which is why I had originally not mentioned it.

I know that my degree is not the be all and end all, but it's the best thing I have. I'm looking for entry level employment that can develop me, not a senior role. I also don't care about money (yet), it is the experience that is important to me.

When I originally wrote this message, I was feeling extremely down. I still do, but not in the way I was in that moment. I might consider changing my original post to reflect more of who I am as a person rather than coming across as a negative or arrogant person, but for now I want to leave it how it is as it's an expression of how I was feeling at the time. There is also other information in my other posts on this thread if you care to read it.
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This is literally my last resort. I am writing this as a last hope that maybe someone intelligent will see it and it might lead to me gaining a job. I am writing it to vent my frustrations because people say you should talk about your problems before doing anything stupid - but no one seems to care or actually do anything about it. I am writing it to open the eyes of even just one person to maybe better this disgusting society and world in which we live. Hear me out.

I graduated from a top 10 UK uni in July 2016 with a 2:1 in math (missed the first by 0.5% because a couple of teachers didn't like me). I am currently studying for CFA and find the content easy to understand but find studying incredibly difficult because I am so alone and have a lot of things troubling me. I am going to the gym, which is my top priority at the moment because there are little restrictions and it gives me something to work towards.

Since then I have been unable to get a job. I have applied to hundreds, maybe even thousands at this point, and had a few interviews. I have applied to jobs ranging from 18k - 30k, and the average starting salary of my degree is 28k. I am not applying to be CEO of Amazon, I am applying for graduate roles that are usually asking for Bs at A-level (I got A in economics, A in math and B in further-maths) or a minimum 2:1 in any degree from any university (my degree, while not being from oxford, is clearly better than average). I am most interested in analytical or mathematical roles.

My experience has been nothing but hell. Only yesterday a recruiter that I rang told me that expecting 23k (when he asked me my salary expectations) was too high and that is the reason I have been unemployed for so long, while trying to get me to go for a job paying 18k in the north. Then when he tried to push me into arranging a whatsapp call the next day to go over questions such as (then named questions I literally just answered) I asked him why we needed to do a whatsapp call and couldn't just do it on the phone. He then went on a massive rage and told me that I was extremely rude and that the conversation wasn't going well. I politely said that I am trying to be honest to get the right role, and told him to take care (I know, I should have had a right go at him, but I am not naturally like that). I just don't get why everyone seems to be an ******* to me or what I have done to deserve this.

My last interview was the second of that particular job. I had passed their stage 1 ability testing questions with flying colours being told by my recruiter for this role that I had scored in the top 1% of any applicants ever. My first interview went well and they told me I asked excellent questions and gave great answers. I got a call the same day asking to go to a second interview in a couple of weeks. The second interview was with a couple of slightly more senior people. The first thing they told me was a lie when I asked them why an interviewer wasn't there who should have been (they said they thought 3 would be too intimidating but in fact the guy had gone for lunch and forgot about my interview so they got a different person in to replace him at the last moment - I knew this because I had coffee with my recruiter afterwards and found some things out). I answered questions and asked questions just as actively as I had done in the first interview, but then a couple of days later I got told they didn't want to offer me a job because "the opportunity has passed and I am 2 years out of uni". Clearly rubbish. They had all month to figure this out and tell me this, and I even raised it as a potential concern during interview and was told that it didn't matter. By the way, my qualifications and background far exceeded any other applicants because I got to see the names of people applying and also found out who had got the job.

I am tired of people telling people to talk about mental health, when the real problem is that people are being unfairly excluded from society. I have more than enough to get a graduate role, a start in life. I invested 4 years, over £30k and countless exams into a degree, while certain people who did nothing in life and have barely any GCSEs can just walk into a job and somehow get everything they need. I feel incredibly isolated, ostracized, frustrated and angry. I am not a greedy person that requires a fancy car or 3 holidays a year. I just want basic human needs. I feel that I will never get a girlfriend because I have no job and girls like guys with money (I am probably extremely ugly so I need to have other things going for me). People say "just be positive", but I am finding it extremely difficult at this point. The constant rejection and 0% success rate makes it almost impossible to believe anyone telling me this.

When push comes to shove, people don't really want to help, they just want to further themselves or satisfy their own interests. The world would be a much better place if people were judged fairly and there wasn't so much corruption in the world.

I am writing this as a last resort for help, because I have run out of ideas. I don't know what I am doing wrong to be excluded so much from society, but I know that I cannot, and will not, live like this for much longer. I am lonely. I am staring at the same 4 walls in my room all day and crying. I am literally suffocating in deep sadness. I am asking for the 0.1% chance that someone out there sees this and can help me. I literally cannot take this anymore as I am in complete pain and torture. Can anyone help me?

Download the app Debut

Do you mind telling me what uni you graduated from exactly

p.s life gets better

If you aren't getting interviews from 20% of your applications, then your applications aren;t being as effective as they could be. if you open a thread of the private CV Help forum and upload your CV as a Word doc, and an example of a job you'd like to apply for, someone can take a look. You can also get help on strategies to overcome gaps in work experience, improve job prospects etc.

Hey, it sounds like you need some advice. First of all which part of the country are you in and how close to major cities/ areas of employment? There is no point writing about what one might do in greater London if you are restricted to the north east.

Also, what work experience do you have if any?

Have you done anything else in those two years? Volunteering? Learning new skills? Part-time jobs?

It's very much true that companies see inaction as a weakness which could be holding you back at the interview stage while your obvious talents shine in practical tests. I know from my own experience that interviewees tend to look favourably on answers to questions that revolve around professional experience, seeing university life as somewhat inapplicable to the rigours of daily work life. It's always struck me that the sheer ordinariness of doing a degree these days means that non-exceptional experiences are seen as worthless, which I think is unfair as university is hardly a walk in the park.

Beyond that, it simply doesn't sound like your approach is working. You're clearly sick of things as they are so my advice would be to change tact. Is there another type of position that you could see yourself doing that isn't 'mathematical or analytical'?

The situation you describe seems quite normal - putting yourself under pressure to get a job like the degree you did at university - but you probably have other skills that would benefit other roles.

I can feel the anger travelling over the internet.

That was pretty much me some time ago, yes, I also had a maths degree, yes I also went to a sutton trust uni.. yes I found a job after 4-5 months, then six months later unemployed for a good old stint. Some comments:-

The LEO data, avoid it, it's depressing, yes the average for your degree that's reported may be £28k, but there'll be an interquartile range listed. I'm below the lower quartile for my degree, in fact for all graduates.

I had this with blitzing tests and latter stages of selection processes, it's frustrating.

A large part depends on where you live. If you live somewhere like the Welsh Valleys or Cumbria, county Durham, Margate or Barnsley then your maths degree is pretty much useless. In places like those degree holders are likely to have the same/lower average earnings than someone with A-levels in a jobs hub like London, Manchester, Oxford, Cambridge. Mobility to a thick jobs market (economic term) is key for any graduate. Not just for the ones that want to earn megabucks, just decent ordinary opportunities that everyone should get.

Comments recruiter - try and ignore them. If you live somewhere like in the first list a £23k starting salary is going to look crackpot crazy to how half of society lives, you'll get comments like that not just off the recruiter, but the jobcentre, anybody in the street. When you've been knocked by so many times, you'll get these types of comments off people I had it that I was 'abrupt'. Sometimes there's a bit to what they say, often it's just stuff people say.

Comment interview - you did great getting to the second stage. I've had the interviews rearranged at the last minute grrrr, I've had people drop out (had it at an interview in september). I used to read deep meaning into these small things, but I've now learnt not to. I've had all sorts of these little things with interviews and spent weeks pondering over meaning that isn't there. It's very hard when you're unemployed as you will spend even more time doing so.

Applications - I've had many, many interviews flown through earlier stages and got panned at the last stage sometimes. I realise in hindsight sometimes these were totally hopeless interviewers, sometimes there was someone better, sometimes I had a bad day, sometimes it was risk averse behaviour by employers who basically liked me and other times I just didn't match what they were looking for and other times it's just picking people based on gut instinct. Now that I am involved myself in recruitment on a small scale I can clearly see that all of the naughty and inept things I thought interviewers/organisations did behind the scenes and I obsessed about for days/weeks/months, they happen on a regular basis. But they don't matter.

Image - I got told this that some of my views seeing things that weren't there into the continuous knockbacks made me seem a bit obsessed and less likely to be employed. The last two interviews I had I said virtually nothing about my previous job. You will also get the character assassination stuff and nasty comments about 'appearance'. I had this from one person off the workfare placement I did and they commented about my coat, shoes, and haircut being a 'young man' I needed to 'change my appearance' to get a job. The other guys on the workfare course were so angry they told the workfare person to STFU and told me to ignore his comments as I was already 'smart' enough looking to get a job and it was people like him who were stopping me.

Negativity - Ignore the relatives who go on about you being unemployed. Those that call whatever you do a saturday job or are you never going to study. I've had all that, it's just nonsense. Who the heck cares about these people.

As a bloke with a maths degree you're going to likely be viciously pigeonholed as a geek with no social skills. I realise in hindsight these comments said to me are just nasty or misinformed things other people said. If you want to break it you could try volunteering for something that'll combat this negative image.

Positivity - surround yourself with like minded people as much as possible. Completely cut out or be polite and minimise the time spent discussing jobs etc around the people that are contrary to what you want. Always be polite and listen to what others say as there may be opportunities in it, but you need to get away from the negativity.

Keep on with the CFA1.

If you've got time on your hands and very smart, why not take up coding? Build up your own portfolio in six months to a year and get an entry level programming or other job?

Perhaps it's because you can come across as arrogant and a whinger?

How often are you asking for feedback following the interviews you've been to? If so, what are the things your interviewers are saying? If not, you need to find out the reasons.

There will be times when an interviewer won't provide feedback or will provide a 'cop-out' answer such as "not a good fit", but the majority of interviewers tend to be constructive. If you'd applied through a recruitment agency, then the recruiter should be looking for feedback on your behalf, but you need to press them for it, and may occasionally need to bypass the recruiter if they're being unhelpful.

I would point out that while recruiters who work at agencies can be effective at getting you a job, they really aren't on 'your side' -- they are salespeople who earn large commission payments for filling their clients' roles, so they play whatever games they feel they need to in order to get someone into those jobs. Don't ever be fooled by the pretense of a recruiter trying to be overly-friendly toward you - that's a fairly common 'sales' tactic in order to get you to agree to things that you might not otherwise want to do.

Lastly, a couple of people have mentioned negativity already in this thread, but I thought I'd mention it again -- your attitude during the interview can make or break your chances if an employer thinks you have the skills for the job. Of course you can't always help it if you happen to have an interview on a 'bad day', sometimes things always don't go your way, but if you're regularly attending interviews showing the same kind of irritation and negativity that you're displaying in this thread that'd could turn you from being a "Let's hire this guy" into "No, we can't have someone like this working for us".

Interviewers always use a sense of "gut feeling" when deciding whether to hire someone so maintaining an upbeat, calm, positive and friendly attitude during the interview is really important. If you end up giving off a lot of negative 'vibes' (for example, flying off on a critical rant about something in answer to a question, or behaving in a way which could be seen as agitated, aggressive, or unnecessarily combative in certain situations), then that sort of thing repels someone when they're trying to decide whether you would fit into the 'culture' of their team.

(For example, you mentioned in your post about missing out on a grade "because someone didn't like you"; in case you ever happen to say that or anything similar in an interview then don't do it because that's a form of interview self-harm)

can't sympathise with any British person who calls maths 'math'

Join the Armed Services. Something like the Royal Engineers where you can specialise in a technical role.

I'm from the south of England, about 35 minutes from London.

I have some experience as a math tutor but employers don't care about that.

The "professional" work experience I have in these last two years is a 3 month placement at a company that basically got me to do admin for less than minimum wage, working in an office and not even getting any exercise. When I say admin I mean literally the worst kind of admin. Not gaining any experience. Working in an environment where people were interested in themseleves and not the development of others. From this experience I learned to not settle for so much less than what I know I'm worth. As I said I'm not asking to be CEO of Amazon, I'm asking for a graduate role so that people can see what I have to offer. Graduate roles that graduates with 2:2s from metrepolotans are walking into. I have a good degree from a good university (top 10 in the UK as mentioned).

Yes I volunteered for 3 months at a place that helps people find jobs (ironic, but these are people with no qualifications), helps people learn basic skills (like how to create and access an email or how to type on a keyboard), and other basic things.

I have done math tutoring part time and surprise surprise did very well at it, but I haven't gone full out with it because I wanted a professional job.

Skills wise I am studying for the CFA and I was learning C++ coding but that has fallen down the priority list a bit recently. I'm going to the gym, getting braces and trying to push myself out of my comfort zone and be more social (I consider social skills to be the most improtant skill in modern society, so I am working on it).

I am very good at spotting talent in other people. I encourage people to reach their potential because not reaching potential bugs the hell out of me, whether that's my own potential or others. I am good at leading people and organising people. I have lots of examples to back this up but I won't list them here. I don't particularly want coding to be my job. I want to use my mathematical, analytical, and people/project managing/decision making skills. So I am open to other types of roles, not just mathematical or analytical, however this is where my true passion lies. I love math and I want it to be involved with my job. I'm not going to settle for an 18k/year job up north doing people's dirty work and gaining no skills or progression. I'd genuinely rather die on the streets (I learned this from my experience in the placement).

m8 sometimes you need the crap jobs to grow as a person. in every role there will be pressure, including having to do what you've never done before and having little time to learn.

I mean, I went to a top universitry and got a very good score in a respectable degree, I'm not going to settle for an 18k/year job in the north doing people's dirty work while gaining no skills or progression. As mentioned in my reply to someone else, I learned this after doing my 3 month placement for a company.

You are absolutely correct with image. It's so important. It's the type of thing people like to brush under the carpet and pretend it doesn't matter but it absolutely does. I'm going to the gym (been going consistently for 6 weeks now) and getting braces to try and remedy this. Pretty much all of the males that I knew from school who were considered "ugly" are unemployed or struggling despite having just as much or better qualifications/experience as their better looking peers.

Your paragraph on applications is so true. Being quite good at spotting things, I worked this out pretty quickly, and it's something that sickens me and makes it harder for me to do the whole process. I really hate having to engage with 90% of people (who are unintelligent, corrupt, nasty and unfair). However I disagree with you that they don't matter. They have stopped me from being employed for over 30 months now which has ruined my life.

The salaries for London are usually 25k-30k starting salary for any graduates. Although my degree is above average I'd still accept this amount for London. I'd accept a little less for places like Reading or my home town such as 22-25k. I'm not going below 20k though, as that is utterly ridiculous. I also learned from my placement that these roles don't offer relevant experience - they are just admin type roles, which is not developing me. I see completely incapable people on much higher salary and I invested a lot of resources into a good degree that has an avaerage starting salary of 28k, I suspect higher from the institution I went to.

Forgive me for not jumping for joy at being unemployed for 30 months after investing a lot of resources into a respetable degree, but I'm not on this thread to be positive. I'm here to be honest and ask for help because I need it. Obviously when I go into an interview I'm not going in there with this attitude, I am trying to go in with the belief that I will get the job, despite having a 0% success rate. You don't know how difficult that is. The only thing keeping me going is that I know that I have a lot to offer, I just need to find an intelligent employer on the same wavelength as me. They just don't seem to exist.

The feedback I have received has been 'nothing' feedback as far as I'm concerned. Things like "the opportunity has passed", "the candidates this year were really good" or "we wanted someone more experienced". Even in jobs where I have been told countless times DURING the interview that my lack of experience didn't matter AT ALL because I would be in a comprehensive training program, the employer has pulled that one on me when finally rejecting me. Essentially, I have had NO useful feedback and I probably won't get any - I suspect I know the reasons though, and they can't be honest with me because they know that their reasons are not moral or could be used against them legally.

Part of it might be your claim to have a "math" degree". What you have is Mathematics. Mathematics. There are more than one. If you have a degree in it, how do you not know that?

Cheers. Downloaded it. I don't suspect it will help but I will give it a go nonetheless.

People have been telling me life gets better for the past 10 years. In fact, it's only gotten worse and worse... I'm here for potentially another 50 years so it needs to start getting better quickly.

You've clearly been unemployed for a while, so you need to work on your CV. Take the lower paid jobs. Saying "that job is beneath me because I went to top ten uni blah blah".. it's that kind of attitude that's blocking you. (Which Uni btw?). Employers want to see experience, they want to see you can hold down a job and are reliable. They want to know you're a valuable asset. How do they know that if your CV isn't showing it?

I started going to church and helping out there and I'm not even religious! On Saturdays I also go to the RSPCA shelter to help out there. In my spare time I'm learning Mandarin. I already know French, German, Dutch (which was easy once you know German) some Italian. I'll be learning Hungarian or Polish next, maybe Russian. But Mandarin is pretty hard so taking me longer than I thought.

Anyway point is I volunteer anywhere and everywhere I can (especially anything to do with church or charity) just so when I finish my degree my CV will have a list of jobs I've volunteered for while doing a degree at the same time just so it'll look good. I also learn other practical skills in my spare time to put on my CV (I'm learning C# in Unity in my spare time for example). This is called raising your personal value.

I go to the gym every single night no excuses. I eat healthy 100% whole foods only, no sugar, no processed, no junk. I practice speaking in the mirror, I read books, I watch self-improvement videos.

Almost everything I do revolves around raising my personal value.

I invest 40% of all my income into a stocks & shares ISA and 20% into a 'IIYS' (Invest In Yourself) savings account. How do you invest in yourself? Well I have crooked teeth because I had my face stomped on in my teens (accidental, I played rugby) so I put 20% of my income into an IIYS account and then bought invisalign (clear aligners) to straighten them. Next year I'll be buying veneers to put the perfecting touch on. I also use IIYS money to buy books, tailored clothes, go to courses.. basically anything that improves my personal value.

You need to come down to Earth a bit and understand that, to these positions you're applying, right now you're not worth the salary you're expecting. Take the first job that comes along. Stick with it. Get it on your CV. Do voluntary charity work, get it on your CV. Learn other skills in your spare time, get it on your CV. Apply for better jobs, then get those on your CV. Work your way up.

Basically get some impressive stuff onto your CV and raise your personal value.

I studied the language of logic and quantity. Many places call it "math". Maybe you studied English? Regardless, I don't care about grammar so much in this forum. I'm here for help with my problem that is affecting my life in a drastic way, so if you have nothing relevant to add then piss off.