The 'Brexit Meaningful Vote' Thread - May loses 432-202 Watch

Fullofsurprises
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Dez)
Would you prefer your ration book printed in Brexit blue or head-stuck-in-the-sand yellow?
The motivation for many Brexiteers is that they will accept the crushing of Britain as we know it in exchange for a reactionary wet dream of zero immigration and the flag of St George fluttering from every window.
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NickAlex12
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#62
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I think you will find you care when there are huge shortages. And even if you don't care, millions will.

It won't be a few pennies, we are talking about tariffs of 30 and 40% on large numbers of items.
If the tariffs are that high, people will stop buying and the EU will lower them, or British produce will become more competitive. We’re a big market for the EU, they need to trade with us.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by NickAlex12)
1)Don’t care.
2)Don’t care. We should support our farmers and buy British. And it’s not like we’ll stop trading with EU just because we have a no-deal. We trade with plenty of countries.
3)Yep because saving a few pennies on your weekly shopping is totally worth sacrificing our independence and sovereignty for
2. British farmers do not produce nearly enough food to support the population. That's why we have to import food from elsewhere.

Border disruption will cause major trade delays which will lead to shortages. I don't suppose you remember what happened last year when the beast from the east left many supermarket shelves wiped clean? Imagine that but a lot worse and for a lot longer.

Not to mention food which does end up in the UK will now be a lot more expensive due to the tariffs on imported goods, the added legal costs of importing goods from the EU, etc.

That's just one of the consequences of a no-deal Brexit.
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MrDystopia
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#64
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Ahead of the debate, 4 amendments were selected by the Speaker for consideration:


Amendment A (Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's amendment) which rejects the deal because it fails to provide a permanent customs union and "strong single market deal", as set out in Labour's "six tests", rejects leaving with no deal and resolves to "pursue every option" that prevents either no deal or leaving on the basis of the current deal.

Amendment K (SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford's amendment) which declines to approve Theresa May's Brexit deal "in line with the views of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly that they would be damaging for Scotland, Wales and the nations and regions of the UK as a whole", and calls for the UK's departure from the EU to be delayed until another withdrawal deal is agreed.

Amendment B (Tory MP Sir Edward Leigh) which makes clear the Northern Ireland backstop is temporary and should remain temporary and calls for assurance that, if the backstop doesn't end by the close of 2021, this will be treated as a fundamental change of circumstances and would terminate the Withdrawal Treaty on 1 January 2022.

Amendment F (Tory MP John Baron's amendment) gives the UK the right to terminate the Northern Ireland backstop without the agreement of the EU.



The Speaker says if the Corbyn amendment is agreed he will then move to the original question; but if it is not he will then move onto the Blackford amendment.
If the Blackford amendment isn’t approved he will then move on to the Leigh amendment and if that is not approved he will then move on to the Baron amendment.
If any of the four amendments are approved by the Commons the Speaker will then immediately move to a vote on the original motion.
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Dez
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#65
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Dez you said 'The majority of the public do not back no deal, and this is also reflected in Westminster. There is no mandate for it.'

Incorrect, the majority of people voted leave there was no leave with a deal, hard or soft Brexit on the paper. It was remain under the renegotiation of terms Cameron tried to get or leave the club. We voted to leave the club that's a strong mandate.
The 2016 referendum cannot be taken as a mandate for a no-deal Brexit. That's twisting the facts to an absurd level.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The rest of you post on this is your opinions alone not fact, speak to anyone whom was an adult alive before 1973 and they will tell you your talking rubbish because they have lived though a non EU Britain
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
@dez you said 'If the referendum clarifies the available options a bit better, it may give a stronger mandate.'

I don't believe it will, in fact I think your are wrong by quite a large margin. Should we do that we are likely to do it split the leave vote so remain win and in doing so totally destroy the majority of the publics faith in voting, which was already at an all time low pre Brexit.
If more than 2 options are on the ballot paper it would need to be held as a STV referendum to avoid this issue.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
@dez you said 'Any deal with the US would take years to resolve, and we have about 8 weeks left. It's not gonna happen.'

Not now your correct but that's what we should of done from day one, instead of trying to reverse the decision or undermine it by petty name calling
Perhaps, but it's a bit late for should-haves, unless we take the decision to rescind Article 50 and attempt to re-implement it a few years down the line.
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NickAlex12
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#66
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Friendly reminder that the British people have a already voted to leave the EU. That is no longer up for serious debate. The debate is between May’s deal and no deal.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by NickAlex12)
If the tariffs are that high, people will stop buying and the EU will lower them, or British produce will become more competitive. We’re a big market for the EU, they need to trade with us.
Which would mean UK exporters having to sharply cut their prices for the EU markets, which would mean declining profits and layoffs in UK exporting companies.

The problem gets much worse when you apply it to complicated chains, like the ones used in many industries, where parts are going backwards and forwards between the UK and the EU in numerous steps, each of which would push costs up. Here the most likely outcome is that the UK manufacturer would seek to relocate into the EU, which many are already either doing or exploring doing.

The EU do not lower tariffs on external countries just because they need to trade with them - the US being the prime example.
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MrDystopia
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#68
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(Original post by NickAlex12)
The debate is between May’s deal and no deal.
Not even May herself believes that anymore.
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Fullofsurprises
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#69
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(Original post by NickAlex12)
Friendly reminder that the British people have a already voted to leave the EU. That is no longer up for serious debate. The debate is between May’s deal and no deal.
There's no parliamentary majority for either, so clearly some other alternative is required.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by NickAlex12)
Friendly reminder that the British people have a already voted to leave the EU. That is no longer up for serious debate. The debate is between May’s deal and no deal.
How do you suggest we resolve the issue that parliament doesn't seem to accept either?

If we had a second referendum on the possible deal options which was explicit in it's result then parliament would, politically, have no choice but to accept the result.
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Burton Bridge
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Dez

Your wrong im twisting nothing, the people voted to leave the EU and it benefits of membership. That's what was on the ballot paper. 1973 was the year we joined the EU but the British public was conned in the 1975 referendum. If we are talking about mandates and twisting of truths there is a whole can of worms we can dig up there!
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Dez

Your wrong im twisting nothing, the people voted to leave the EU and it benefits of membership. That's what was on the ballot paper. 1973 was the year we joined the EU but the British public was conned in the 1975 referendum. If we are talking about mandates and twisting of truths there is a whole can of worms we can dig up there!
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

That was the question. The referendum did not specify anything on the benefits of membership, membership of the customs union or single market, whether we should leave with a deal or no deal. Nothing.
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Official House of Commons
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#73
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Hi all, great to see everyone discussing the 'meaningful vote' on this thread. For anyone unsure of exactly what it's about, here's Liam Laurence Smyth - the Clerk of Legislation in the House of Commons with an explanation (1min video).

You can keep up with all today's latest developments on the House of Commons Twitter.
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MrDystopia
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#74
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(Original post by Official House of Commons)
Hi all, great to see everyone discussing the 'meaningful vote' on this thread. For anyone unsure of exactly what it's about, here's Liam Laurence Smyth - the Clerk of Legislation in the House of Commons with an explanation (1min video).

You can keep up with all today's latest developments on the House of Commons Twitter.
Thank you for stopping by! I can add that information into the first post
Last edited by MrDystopia; 1 month ago
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Official House of Commons)
Hi all, great to see everyone discussing the 'meaningful vote' on this thread. For anyone unsure of exactly what it's about, here's Liam Laurence Smyth - the Clerk of Legislation in the House of Commons with an explanation (1min video).

You can keep up with all today's latest developments on the House of Commons Twitter.
Really cool to have the House of Commons visiting the thread! :five:
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MrDystopia
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#76
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Father of the House Kenneth Clarke is the first of around 71 backbenchers who will now partake in the debate up until the vote.
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Dez
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#77
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Dez

Your wrong im twisting nothing, the people voted to leave the EU and it benefits of membership. That's what was on the ballot paper. 1973 was the year we joined the EU but the British public was conned in the 1975 referendum. If we are talking about mandates and twisting of truths there is a whole can of worms we can dig up there!
The people voted in an advisory referendum that they (well, 52% of them) believe the UK should not be a member of the European Union. That's all the ballot paper can tell you. You cannot infer from that whether the voters wished the UK to leave with a deal or without. Opinion polls conducted since then make it clear that neither a no-deal Brexit nor May's deal enjoy a majority of public support.
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MrDystopia
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#78
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(Original post by Dez)
The people voted in an advisory referendum that they (well, 52% of them) believe the UK should not be a member of the European Union. That's all the ballot paper can tell you. You cannot infer from that whether the voters wished the UK to leave with a deal or without. Opinion polls conducted since then make it clear that neither a no-deal Brexit nor May's deal enjoy a majority of public support.
I've said it before, it's only after this two year process that we've now seen just how divided people's views were. With each event that's happened, we've further fragmented as a nation from 'Remain or Leave' to all the various views now. 2nd referendum, stopping it all unilaterally, May's Deal, No Deal, General Election...

You simply cannot say that any of that was indicated at the 2016 referendum. To do so is stretching it beyond what the question asked.
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Fullofsurprises
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Interesting seeing how angry some leading Tory backbenchers are about the way they get treated by the No 10 spin machine and Theresa May's secretive and autocratic management style. Dominic Grieve in particular is obviously incensed about it and he's a very good man, one of the Tories who are genuinely principled. Much of the chaos that will shortly arrive is due to the Prime Minister's conduct.
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MrDystopia
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#80
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Interesting seeing how angry some leading Tory backbenchers are about the way they get treated by the No 10 spin machine and Theresa May's secretive and autocratic management style. Dominic Grieve in particular is obviously incensed about it and he's a very good man, one of the Tories who are genuinely principled. Much of the chaos that will shortly arrive is due to the Prime Minister's conduct.
This entire fiasco has symbolised 'by hook or by crook' to the extreme.
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