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The 'Brexit Meaningful Vote' Thread - May loses 432-202

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So you actually think the referendum carried no weight, In which case why have it?

Nope, I believe it displayed public opinion at the time. It does carry, however, no legal weight beyond advising Government policy.

As to why have it? Well, Cameron trying to unite his party by eliminating the European divide makes most sense. After all, barely anyone cared about the EU as a political issue prior, it was only when Cameron insisted on this process occurring that the nation divided itself.

Reply 101

Burton Bridge

Original post by MrDystopia

You can lie to yourself all you want but you won't make it anymore of a truth.

The tories have been bitterly divided regarding Europe for years, it's partly what brought down majors government. UKIP and other anti European parties were gaining huge support and stealing votes from both the major parties, the bomb was cooking for a long time. If any of you spend the time to actually talk to the older generations they will all echo of the problems that have come with EU membership and surprising to me was immigration was rarely mentioned. That's fact based on history and my reserch from talking to people.

Now my opinion (which is not fact but I believe it to be correct) Cameron offered a referendum as a vote winner because he did not think he would get a majority government to actually carry it though and it backfired on him, that's why I think we had it offered. Referendums are expensive and are there to give political figures the will of the people, this I agree with you. That's it apart from that I disagree completely, you simply cannot asked the opinions of your bosses (us) and ignore it because the establishment knows best.

Reply 102

Burton Bridge

At the end of the day, I always find agree to differ works well these type of threads.

Reply 103

fallen_acorns

if we stay in.. its better for me and my family personally, both financially and in terms of my wife's families future migration plans.. it also provides stability, and keeps us in a situation where at worst things are alright..

if we follow the hard brexit line we could truly forge a path into a potentially brilliant position.. but we massive risks associated with such an upresidented upheval, and whilst I do agree with the brexiteers that in the long-long-run there are definetly bennifits to leaving both practically and ideologically, no one can deny that it would cause half a century of hurt/struggle before then.

I genuinly wouldn't mind either. both are fine ideological possitions - both have merits, both have people passionate for them. But it is a one way or the other.. if there is one thing this negotiation has shown above all else (except maybe the incompetance and lack of quality in our leadership and opposition) its that no middle option exists.

May's option does mitigate against some of the worst short-term damage we would take from leaving the EU, but that's all it does.. avoid risk. It doesn't actually achieve the significant bennifits of either being in or out of the EU... it just leaves us stuck.

Reply 104

MrSuavetopia

Original post by Burton Bridge

You can lie to yourself all you want but you won't make it anymore of a truth.

Aside from my assertion as to why Cameron called the referendum, nothing in there is a lie. Europe was not an issue prior to many people, and the referendum is entirely advisory. As mandated by the legislation.

Original post by Burton Bridge

The tories have been bitterly divided regarding Europe for years, it's partly what brought down majors government. UKIP and other anti European parties were gaining huge support and stealing votes from both the major parties, the bomb was cooking for a long time. If any of you spend the time to actually talk to the older generations they will all echo of the problems that have come with EU membership and surprising to me was immigration was rarely mentioned. That's fact based on history and my reserch from talking to people.

Yes the Tories have been bitterly divided. Anecdotal evidence isn't great to bring to an argument as one could claim anything. However since you've decided to bring in immigration to the topic, I don't think we need reminding as to how heavily it featured in the referendum campaigning (often times, rather underhandedly).

Original post by Burton Bridge

Now my opinion (which is not fact but I believe it to be correct) Cameron offered a referendum as a vote winner because he did not think he would get a majority government to actually carry it though and it backfired on him, that's why I think we had it offered. Referendums are expensive and are there to give political figures the will of the people, this I agree with you. That's it apart from that I disagree completely, you simply cannot asked the opinions of your bosses (us) and ignore it because the establishment knows best.

Indeed, the Electoral Commission recently put out that the referendum cost us £129 million. And again, you may disagree all you want, but by the letter of the law, that's what it is. Would it be quite unpopular to do so and cause even more chaos? Sure. But turning a blind eye to the fact the referendum is legally advisory, and thereby accusing others of living in an alternate reality, is warping it yourself.

Reply 105

SHallowvale

Original post by Burton Bridge

The remain camp and the leave camp spent months explaining these issues to the British people.

It doesn't change the fact that we didn't vote on what the aftermath would be in the event of a leave victory.

Reply 106

MrSuavetopia

Chamber is rapidly filling up now as we approach a closing speech by May, and of course the big vote on her deal.

Reply 107

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Official House of Commons

Hi all, great to see everyone discussing the 'meaningful vote' on this thread. For anyone unsure of exactly what it's about, here's Liam Laurence Smyth - the Clerk of Legislation in the House of Commons with an explanation (1min video).

You can keep up with all today's latest developments on the House of Commons Twitter.

What time will the vote take place tonight please and when will we get the result?

Reply 108

MrSuavetopia

Original post by Fullofsurprises

What time will the vote take place tonight please and when will we get the result?

Given how these things don't tend to remain on schedule, this is what is currently up on BBC:

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46868194

Reply 109

MrSuavetopia

Corbyn is speaking now.

Reply 110

Burton Bridge

Original post by SHallowvale

It doesn't change the fact that we didn't vote on what the aftermath would be in the event of a leave victory.

Seriously? We did not vote on our politicians not wishing to make a sucess of what the people wanted, that's not a valid point.

Reply 111

MrSuavetopia

Theresa May is now speaking.

Reply 112

Burton Bridge

Original post by MrDystopia

Well based on that your correct, but it's still not an issue to many people. But I can assure you it was a issue that was growing in popularity, UKIP popularity proves this.

Reply 113

Cubcub99

The EU is not going to give us a good deal.

Leave No deal. At least then we can make free trade deals with any country (America, Australia, Canada).

A *****y deal is worst than remaining

Reply 114

hello_shawn

Thought we'd get the voting results now, but it turns out voting only just begun. If Theresa May is Arsenal, Parliament is Manchester City :wink:

Reply 115

MrSuavetopia

Labour and SNP amendments are not moved.

Reply 116

chieula2301

Original post by hello_shawn

Thought we'd get the voting results now, but it turns out voting only just begun. If Theresa May is Arsenal, Parliament is Manchester City :wink:

I would think May is Liverpool 😂

Reply 117

Fullofsurprises

Original post by MrDystopia

Ahead of the debate, 4 amendments were selected by the Speaker for consideration:

Amendment A (Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's amendment) which rejects the deal because it fails to provide a permanent customs union and "strong single market deal", as set out in Labour's "six tests", rejects leaving with no deal and resolves to "pursue every option" that prevents either no deal or leaving on the basis of the current deal.

Amendment K (SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford's amendment) which declines to approve Theresa May's Brexit deal "in line with the views of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly that they would be damaging for Scotland, Wales and the nations and regions of the UK as a whole", and calls for the UK's departure from the EU to be delayed until another withdrawal deal is agreed.

Amendment B (Tory MP Sir Edward Leigh) which makes clear the Northern Ireland backstop is temporary and should remain temporary and calls for assurance that, if the backstop doesn't end by the close of 2021, this will be treated as a fundamental change of circumstances and would terminate the Withdrawal Treaty on 1 January 2022.

Amendment F (Tory MP John Baron's amendment) gives the UK the right to terminate the Northern Ireland backstop without the agreement of the EU.

The Speaker says if the Corbyn amendment is agreed he will then move to the original question; but if it is not he will then move onto the Blackford amendment.
If the Blackford amendment isn’t approved he will then move on to the Leigh amendment and if that is not approved he will then move on to the Baron amendment.
If any of the four amendments are approved by the Commons the Speaker will then immediately move to a vote on the original motion.

Leigh obligingly drops Amendment B challenging the Backstop, claiming that the PM had satisfied his concerns - an obvious put-up job that caused MPs quite a bit of amusement.

Labour and the SNP both withdrawing theirs, leaving only the Right to Terminate the Backstop (amendment F) in the running, to no effect, as the House made it clear it overwhelmingly rejected it and their was some annoyance when the Speaker let it through anyway, although as he rightly pointed out, this was due to John Baron persisting with it.

So we have to wait another half an hour. :rolleyes:

Reply 118

MrSuavetopia

Voting taking place on Amendment F now.

Reply 119

Fullofsurprises

Tulip Siddiq MP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_Siddiq) is heavily pregnant, but is attending the vote - in a wheelchair. She has delayed a C-Section. Perhaps she will make history as the first MP to deliver in the Chamber during a vote. :teehee: