Probably expelled from Oxford, what can I do now? Watch

seren-q
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tesconyc
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I'm sorry to hear that. it's survival of the fittest in the real world. wish you the very best
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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I have no advice but I just want to say how sad and sorry I am that this has happened to you. There was me thinking how Oxford treated me was bad! This is on a completely different level and I'm appalled but sadly not surprised.

If it would help to PM someone who knows how **** Oxford can be about mental health, do feel free to PM me. I would advise against trying other unis until your dissociation is less severe, as this situation could well replicate at other unis

:jumphug:
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Claire461
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(Original post by quinq)
So, this is a v long story, but here's the tl;dr first:
I had a very serious mental health crisis in the autumn term, made some awful decisions, and plagiarised some work. I had a meeting, admitted it fully and suspended myself for a year to work on my mental health. They're now expelling me.

So the long version:

I have C-PTSD. Last term, **** happened, and I spent the whole 8 weeks in a dissociative state with no idea what I was doing, completely incapable of proper work, etc. This lead to some atrocious decision making, including getting some Greek from the internet rather than doing it myself. I had a disciplinary hearing for this and admitted it fully, even though I didn't remember it at all. During that hearing, I agreed to have all my work thenceforth checked for plagiarism, and all my work from that term. They asked me if there were any other instances of plagiarism that term and I tried to explain that I wasn't aware of any, but I had huge gaps in my memory and awareness. They took this as me saying, unequivocally "this didn't happen in any other case" which I can't possibly assert.

Then, after that meeting, I met with my doctor and agreed I would suspend for health reasons. I couldn't have done that before the meeting as if I had, I wouldn't have been allowed to attend the meeting as suspended students aren't allowed on college grounds at Oxford. It also meant I wasn't allowed to make a defence explicitly on the grounds of my mental health during the meeting - I had to leave it in vague terms like "I don't recall that day" or "I was experiencing high stress and upsetting memories" rather than "I was completely dissociated" and "I was in a hyperrealistic flashback"

After the meeting, they gave me their decision, and the tutor for undergrads said some horrid things, including "I don't care for student welfare" and said he wanted to expel me, and was barely outvoted. He said I wasn't the kind of student they accept at the college and not the kind of student they keep. They also sent round a document detailing the meeting that I had to either sign or be expelled. This was explicit. I was not allowed to make any edits or disagree with anything they said happened in the meeting.

So, I got an email from the ******* tutor for undergrads today saying they found more evidence of plagiarism and will be meeting in 2 weeks to discuss it. He also said "we stressed the importance of honesty to Quin. He stated unequivocally that there were no other instances of plagiarism, and agreed that he would be expelled from the College if any were discovered." This isn't true. But sadly, you're not allowed a witness in these meetings so it's his word against mine.

So, I have a report from my psychiatrist saying I can't be held accountable for my actions last term because I was in such mental distress that my actions were not conscious or my own. I sent this to the aforementioned tutor, and he said he would read it at the meeting, but "wanted to stress that post hoc arguments are not admissible." I'm not allowed to attend the meeting, nor to send anyone on my behalf.

So, I'm gonna be expelled. Once they decide this, I can appeal to the governing body of the university but there has never been a successful appeal.

What are my options now? If I apply to another university, will they know I was expelled from Oxford? Will they care?
Whatever the outcome, I wouldn’t even be thinking of applying anywhere else based on your current mental health state. You need time to recover from what has gone wrong and get yourself well.
Sorry you are having such a bad time.
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BonsaiColony
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If you managed to get into oxford it shows that you are capable academically. I suggest you rest, get support etc
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user73867
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Everyone makes bad decisions from time to time.

Going forward, you don't have to tell universities or employers you got expelled from Oxford unless they explicitly ask. You can you left due to mental health reasons.

The ride is going to be pretty bad but you're obviously clever and hardworking enough to get into Oxford, so the world is still your oyster.
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katf
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Frankly this looks to be in breach of the equality act. Your mental illness is counted as a disability and they must make reasonable adjustments. Expelling you for something you did as a result of your disability is absolutely not on. It'd be like my college expelling me for not turning up when the lift wasn't working so I couldn't get to the classroom.

They sound like utter b*stards. In your shoes, I'd say F*ck you and drop out before they expell you.

Other universities won't care. You might not get into Oxbridge again, but you'll still have a chance to go to uni. I'd also consider going to the press. Some very bad headlines could come out of their treatment of you. That might make them pay attention.
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999tigger
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(Original post by quinq)
So, this is a v long story, but here's the tl;dr first:
I had a very serious mental health crisis in the autumn term, made some awful decisions, and plagiarised some work. I had a meeting, admitted it fully and suspended myself for a year to work on my mental health. They're now expelling me.

So the long version:

I have C-PTSD. Last term, **** happened, and I spent the whole 8 weeks in a dissociative state with no idea what I was doing, completely incapable of proper work, etc. This lead to some atrocious decision making, including getting some Greek from the internet rather than doing it myself. I had a disciplinary hearing for this and admitted it fully, even though I didn't remember it at all. During that hearing, I agreed to have all my work thenceforth checked for plagiarism, and all my work from that term. They asked me if there were any other instances of plagiarism that term and I tried to explain that I wasn't aware of any, but I had huge gaps in my memory and awareness. They took this as me saying, unequivocally "this didn't happen in any other case" which I can't possibly assert.

Then, after that meeting, I met with my doctor and agreed I would suspend for health reasons. I couldn't have done that before the meeting as if I had, I wouldn't have been allowed to attend the meeting as suspended students aren't allowed on college grounds at Oxford. It also meant I wasn't allowed to make a defence explicitly on the grounds of my mental health during the meeting - I had to leave it in vague terms like "I don't recall that day" or "I was experiencing high stress and upsetting memories" rather than "I was completely dissociated" and "I was in a hyperrealistic flashback"

After the meeting, they gave me their decision, and the tutor for undergrads said some horrid things, including "I don't care for student welfare" and said he wanted to expel me, and was barely outvoted. He said I wasn't the kind of student they accept at the college and not the kind of student they keep. They also sent round a document detailing the meeting that I had to either sign or be expelled. This was explicit. I was not allowed to make any edits or disagree with anything they said happened in the meeting.

So, I got an email from the ******* tutor for undergrads today saying they found more evidence of plagiarism and will be meeting in 2 weeks to discuss it. He also said "we stressed the importance of honesty to Quin. He stated unequivocally that there were no other instances of plagiarism, and agreed that he would be expelled from the College if any were discovered." This isn't true. But sadly, you're not allowed a witness in these meetings so it's his word against mine.

So, I have a report from my psychiatrist saying I can't be held accountable for my actions last term because I was in such mental distress that my actions were not conscious or my own. I sent this to the aforementioned tutor, and he said he would read it at the meeting, but "wanted to stress that post hoc arguments are not admissible." I'm not allowed to attend the meeting, nor to send anyone on my behalf.

So, I'm gonna be expelled. Once they decide this, I can appeal to the governing body of the university but there has never been a successful appeal.

What are my options now? If I apply to another university, will they know I was expelled from Oxford? Will they care?

You really need some legal advice so they dont discriminate against you .

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/h...dents-helpline

Maybe they can refer you to an education specialist or someone with MH expertise.

As for the other, then if you havent sat exams they wont know.
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BonsaiColony
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(Original post by quinq)
thanks!

i can't really afford legal advice (just my psych bills are cleaning me out) but i'll see if there's anything i can find pro bono

honestly i'm resigned to the idea of being kicked out, i just hope it wont stop me getting something else elsewhere
Because I have mental health issues, just out of curiosity has the NHS helped with anything ?
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threeportdrift
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(Original post by quinq)
If I apply to another university, will they know I was expelled from Oxford? Will they care?
It's a salutary lesson for others in the importance of telling someone and getting a formal diagnosis asap - though I accept this can be extremely difficult to do. But this 'no post-hoc excuses' is likely to become more common. However, it's no a post-hoc excuse if you appeal, so it's worth doing.

It's very unlikely to make a difference to applications you make elsewhere. You got into Oxford so presumably your grades are good enough for anywhere. I'd say something like I was sent down for issues that occurred as a result of a significant mental health crisis. Fortunately my mental health is much better now.
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uponthyhorse
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(Original post by quinq)
guess the thing is, if they don't expel me, i only have to tolerate them for another 2 years and then i'll be out with an oxford degree to shove in their faces.
I feel like the perceived value of an "Oxford degree" in most workplaces is not enough (compared to any other top uni) to warrant 2 more years.
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username2337287
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Pitty, how Oxford has no consideration towards mental health, their traditional ethos has decelerated their progressional development and hence, have plummeted their moral values. Problematically, these institutions boast about "equality, and social mobility", although contrastingly still express significant divisions in both attitudes towards the welfare of their students, and fairness. Their tradition will contribute to their downfall, and more liberally minded and modern universities have managed to undermine Oxbridge influence. This year Bristol was ranked first for engineering, a sore loss for Cambridge- Considering that Oxbridge pay league tables...... Bristol does not. Imperial, UCL, and LSE are also fierce competitors, their modern curricula as well as a progressive attitude have enabled them to become arguably more attractive to companies looking for well-rounded individuals. LSE ranked first for economics, again another loss for E&M for Oxford, and Cambridge.

It is very unfortunate, that your mental health was neglected by Oxford, an institution that proudly boasts about being the hub of the "most academically gifted, and brightest students" (Although this is arrogantly debatable, considering that other universities are just as good, and not all students with exceptional caliber apply), surely such academic prowess would recognize the importance of mental health, in addition, to understand how to adequately deal with situations like these. Such neglect, clearly demonstrates that Oxford has no regard for mental health issues, but also are more focussed on attainment.

Morality is more important than prestige. You need rest and more importantly, you are BETTER than Oxford. It is their loss, and frankly, if an institution cannot appreciate their students, then they don't deserve to admit or have said status.
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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(Original post by quinq)
when you join my college you sign an agreement saying you wont go to the press about them, cos that's legal right.......
:lolwut: Jesus Christ...

So sorry they've been **** about your physical disability as well So mad on your behalf! :mob:
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username2337287
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(Original post by BonsaiColony)
Because I have mental health issues, just out of curiosity has the NHS helped with anything ?
The NHS is poor in terms of mental health services, other than a promise of an additional £2 Billion to mental health services in A&E departments, as well as CAHMS Units (Being notoriously inadequate), it is very difficult to receive effective assistance. Furthermore, counseling services that cost are scams.
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999tigger
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(Original post by quinq)
thanks!

i can't really afford legal advice (just my psych bills are cleaning me out) but i'll see if there's anything i can find pro bono

honestly i'm resigned to the idea of being kicked out, i just hope it wont stop me getting something else elsewhere
I doubt they will be bothered.

If you feel Oxford have been unfair then you could contact the disability officer or MH team or EASS.

http://www.equalityadvisoryservice.com/app/ask


UCAS require you to put a complete record down of all exam attempted.
You dont refer to Oxford in your UCAS statement. If needed your referee could or you could make a mitigating circumstances claim with your application, but I assume your grades are good enough.

I doubt they will spot Oxford as many people take gaps.

You can always make an informal enquiry to admissions or be vague and say you dropped out due toe MH reasons, something diplomatic.
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username2337287
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(Original post by quinq)
i wanted to do a masters and dphil, for which an oxford undergrad is a bit of an opening ticket sadly, but other than that i have no real ties to oxford, aside from the fact i really love this city and my communities here (the jewish community is especially important to me, as well as the wheelchair basketball team lol). i guess i like the tutorial system as it works well with my brain (when my brain isn't effed up as bad), but that's not unique to oxford
Have you considered alternative top universities, including Imperial, UCL, Durham, Warwick, LSE, or Bristol? Depends, what course are you applying for? Maybe go for Cambridge, and slap Oxford's face.
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katf
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(Original post by quinq)
oh they're **** about my physical disability as well. i didn't get college contact hours cos they have no accessible teaching rooms and refused to make any, i couldnt use the college dining hall or kitchens and we weren't allowed to cook in our rooms so i couldn't eat except deliveroo/restaurants/etc, i couldnt use the college library without an assistant, i couldn't use the college laundry....and so on. just because i'm a wheelchair user. i was trying to move college anyway, but they wouldn't let me! also when you join my college you sign an agreement saying you wont go to the press about them, cos that's legal right.......

i guess the thing is, if they don't expel me, i only have to tolerate them for another 2 years and then i'll be out with an oxford degree to shove in their faces.
that's definitely in breach of the equality act. That isn't allowing you to access education on the same basis as everyone else. Get in touch with a lawyer and document everything. There are disability rights charities that may provide you with one for free. If it comes to it, you could start a gofundme.

I'd go to the press about your experiences anyway. This looks really bad for them. If they try to silence you it'll look even worse and it won't work. Write to your MP and get them to bring it up in Parliament, or write a letter on your behalf.
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uponthyhorse
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(Original post by quinq)
i wanted to do a masters and dphil, for which an oxford undergrad is a bit of an opening ticket sadly, but other than that i have no real ties to oxford, aside from the fact i really love this city and my communities here (the jewish community is especially important to me, as well as the wheelchair basketball team lol). i guess i like the tutorial system as it works well with my brain (when my brain isn't effed up as bad), but that's not unique to oxford
Is the structure of the DPhil particularly appealing compared to other university PhD programs? I know it's a trend for Oxbridge grads to do PhDs in other unis because the undergrad seems to be so stressful, and even more so for you. (I'm not well versed enough on the differences that come with a DPhil apart from "it's from Oxbridge")
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the bear
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(Original post by quinq)
also when you join my college you sign an agreement saying you wont go to the press about them, cos that's legal right.......
they are taking the piss. this chicanery needs to be exposed.... you can hang them out to dry for their behavior.

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999tigger
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(Original post by quinq)
well so i didn't take any exams thank god, one blessing of oxford! my course has exams in second year, mods (honour moderations yadda yadda) which i would've been sitting this term, but since i suspended, i wasn't entered for them. even so, i doubt they'd have counted as they're internal exams.

so, at least if oxford falls through i can go somewhere else. I know lots of people who're really happy at other universities, and people who've taken years out.

I'd be 22, cos i took a gap year originally, and then i'd be able to apply to start from sept 2020 but there are far older undergrads in the world.

thanks so much for the practical advice too!
In that case theres nothing to report about Oxford in terms of exams.

Your backup plan is your medical defence and backed up by psych and GP that you were having an episode.

You are going to need to make some progress to avoid a recurrence.

Dont worry about gap year, people go to uni at all ages.

Yes you can get a good degree and also be really happy at other unis as well. If you have given up or rather Ox has given up on you then learn from it and be ready to move in. Assuming you have the grades, then a decent PS and you cna more or less have your pick of other unis. Open days and see which ones suit you. As you know dont believe the hype and see for yourself whether it suits you including how they treat you and mh support.
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