Manufacturers jobs are leaving the Uk Watch

DJKL
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Dannyboy2015)
This.

Thatcher had the right idea closing down mines. She also said we shouldn't join the euro... then we crashed out after the next pm had us join the euro.

Oh well.

Did you know that both Thatcher & Merkel were chemists before their moves into politics.

I'm hoping biochemistry will get me at least like a cabinet position. Although I'm assuming after this post the left will not vote me into Gov. : (
We never joined the Euro, what you appear to be describing is the ERM issues which happened before the Euro even existed, we were shadowing the Deutsche Mark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_euro

And of course, the Prime Minister who entered the UK into the ERM mechanism was of course, wait for it,

"On 8 October 1990, Thatcher entered the pound into the ERM mechanism at DM 2.95 to the pound."

The debacle may have happened after Major became PM but the wonderful Margaret does not have clean hands on the issue.

Your appreciation of what actually happened needs a little more reading.
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ColinDent
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#22
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#22
(Original post by DJKL)
We never joined the Euro, what you appear to be describing is the ERM issues which happened before the Euro even existed, we were shadowing the Deutsche Mark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_euro

And of course, the Prime Minister who entered the UK into the ERM mechanism was of course, wait for it,

"On 8 October 1990, Thatcher entered the pound into the ERM mechanism at DM 2.95 to the pound."

The debacle may have happened after Major became PM but the wonderful Margaret does not have clean hands on the issue.

Your appreciation of what actually happened needs a little more reading.
Thankfully, and you are quite correct the Euro didn't come into existence until 1999.
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DJKL
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#23
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#23
(Original post by TommyDH)

Where we are making the majority of our money now is the financial sector and services.

I
That is why WTO will be so wonderful for us all, it says nothing re services worth talking about, concerning itself re goods, so we will have no access in certain financial sectors into the EU unless we move part of these operations, and parts of the balance sheets, into the EU, a step appreciated by the likes of Somerset Capital (JRM having some interests in same)

May's deal is no more helpful re services.

Still- our losses are the EU's gains, Frankfurt and Paris are very grateful for the sacrifices we are making re financial services.
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ColinDent
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#24
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#24
(Original post by DJKL)
That is why WTO will be so wonderful for us all, it says nothing re services worth talking about, concerning itself re goods, so we will have no access in certain financial sectors into the EU unless we move part of these operations, and parts of the balance sheets, into the EU, a step appreciated by the likes of Somerset Capital (JRM having some interests in same)

May's deal is no more helpful re services.

Still- our losses are the EU's gains, Frankfurt and Paris are very grateful for the sacrifices we are making re financial services.
The EU do not include financial services in any trade deals, we can do better.
Also these other financial hubs that you mention are not viable as they are in the wrong timezone and the main language is not English, and they lack the expertise that the City offers.
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TommyDH
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#25
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#25
(Original post by DJKL)
That is why WTO will be so wonderful for us all, it says nothing re services worth talking about, concerning itself re goods, so we will have no access in certain financial sectors into the EU unless we move part of these operations, and parts of the balance sheets, into the EU, a step appreciated by the likes of Somerset Capital (JRM having some interests in same)

May's deal is no more helpful re services.

Still- our losses are the EU's gains, Frankfurt and Paris are very grateful for the sacrifices we are making re financial services.
Scaremongering rubbish. London is still the financial capital of the world, moving is quite literally 'more trouble than its worth' for 99.9% of all companies.

Even if it was true I wouldn't care, as liberty comes before all else. Sovereignty is not for sale. Our ancestors didn't fight wars and suffer bloodshed just so we can become a colony of some anti-anglo jumped up tinpot dictatorship in Brussels.
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Dannyboy2015
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#26
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#26
(Original post by DJKL)
We never joined the Euro, what you appear to be describing is the ERM issues which happened before the Euro even existed, we were shadowing the Deutsche Mark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_euro

And of course, the Prime Minister who entered the UK into the ERM mechanism was of course, wait for it,

"On 8 October 1990, Thatcher entered the pound into the ERM mechanism at DM 2.95 to the pound."

The debacle may have happened after Major became PM but the wonderful Margaret does not have clean hands on the issue.

Your appreciation of what actually happened needs a little more reading.
Urgh, semantics of old politics. yes - ERM, yes thatcher was in Gov. No not her idea. It was Major that wanted it. She warned against it.
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DJKL
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#27
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#27
(Original post by TommyDH)
Scaremongering rubbish. London is still the financial capital of the world, moving is quite literally 'more trouble than its worth' for 99.9% of all companies.

Even if it was true I wouldn't care, as liberty comes before all else. Sovereignty is not for sale. Our ancestors didn't fight wars and suffer bloodshed just so we can become a colony of some anti-anglo jumped up tinpot dictatorship in Brussels.
How do you know re my ancestors what they thought desirable, maybe some of them have different views. Pretty weak argument if you believe you speak for all of those who have served in the past.

My grandfather served from 1910-1946 in the army, moving up from a private to a Major (Temp Ltd Col), I talked at length to my grandfather re WW11, he went into Europe on D Day +3 ,as part of 21st Army Group.ending up after the war in the Control Commmisssion who managed parts of occupied Germany . Along the way he picked up an MBE for his efforts and his uniform and medals were subsequently put on display at Aldershot. My father served from 1944 (aged 17) to 1946 in the RN and continued to serve in the RNR until the 1970s. ending up as a Commander in same.

You do not speak for the services, there were and are myriad views held by those who served, the falsehood that somehow Brexit honours those who fought in both WW1 and WW2 is arrant nonsense, sure some may have felt as you do but some would have viewed any efforts to bring cohesion to Europe as a very good idea.
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TommyDH
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#28
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#28
(Original post by DJKL)
How do you know re my ancestors what they thought desirable, maybe some of them have different views. Pretty weak argument if you believe you speak for all of those who have served in the past.

My grandfather served from 1910-1946 in the army, moving up from a private to a Major (Temp Ltd Col), I talked at length to my grandfather re WW11, he went into Europe on D Day +3 ,as part of 21st Army Group.ending up after the war in the Control Commmisssion who managed parts of occupied Germany . Along the way he picked up an MBE for his efforts and his uniform and medals were subsequently put on display at Aldershot. My father served from 1944 (aged 17) to 1946 in the RN and continued to serve in the RNR until the 1970s. ending up as a Commander in same.

You do not speak for the services, there were and are myriad views held by those who served, the falsehood that somehow Brexit honours those who fought in both WW1 and WW2 is arrant nonsense, sure some may have felt as you do but some would have viewed any efforts to bring cohesion to Europe as a very good idea.
Uh I know because otherwise they'd have defected and been fighting for Napoleon, or the Kaiser or for Hitler instead of fighting for the ideals of freedom.

Liberty is priceless.
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DJKL
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Dannyboy2015)
Urgh, semantics of old politics. yes - ERM, yes thatcher was in Gov. No not her idea. It was Major that wanted it. She warned against it.
"Events, dear boy, events", that happened , just not as you described. Old politics maybe, but you raised the issue, not I, I merely corrected your errors. .
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DJKL
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#30
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(Original post by TommyDH)
Uh I know because otherwise they'd have defected and been fighting for Napoleon, or the Kaiser or for Hitler instead of fighting for the ideals of freedom.

Liberty is priceless.
Well glad you feel you can express the thoughts of people I knew better than I can, though I cannot readily conceive of my father believing such ill educated nonsense given his education, but of course you must know better.
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Dannyboy2015
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#31
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#31
(Original post by DJKL)
"Events, dear boy, events", that happened , just not as you described. Old politics maybe, but you raised the issue, not I, I merely corrected your errors. .
Eh the main point behind it was true. you are right though. That was shocking of me.

Still Thatcher is a hero and didn't want to join the ERM - an event that would cripple the economy. It was Major that wanted to and so we did.
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DJKL
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Dannyboy2015)
Eh the main point behind it was true. you are right though. That was shocking of me.

Still Thatcher is a hero and didn't want to join the ERM - an event that would cripple the economy. It was Major that wanted to and so we did.
Thatcher also believed the UK belonged in the EU, she may have bargained hard with them with regards to opt outs and rebates, but she recognised the benefits. I am not personally convinced she was a hero, how she dealt with industrial policy in the 1980s is open to discussion, whilst a lot of it was necessary how she went about things, and what she left in her wake re large parts of the UK, was not necessary- some of the disaffection in places like the NE directly flows from how she did what she did.
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999tigger
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#33
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#33
(Original post by ColinDent)
Quick question for you though, everyone goes on about how our car plants will be affected by trade barriers, what about all the things that European car manufacturers rely on that are made here?
https://youtu.be/NdbtmLxO9EU
It will hurt both sides, but we produce a lot less than they do so it will be easier for them to supply themselves from inside the single market. It will make more sense for them to put new investment in other EU countries than here unless we can make a compelling case.

Cant see your point. Multi nationals will invest where their markets are or where they have the best means of production. hence Landrover or Ford having no qualms about axing jobs in the UK and investing elsewhere.

Will have to see what happens.
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Dannyboy2015
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#34
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#34
(Original post by DJKL)
Thatcher also believed the UK belonged in the EU, she may have bargained hard with them with regards to opt outs and rebates, but she recognised the benefits. I am not personally convinced she was a hero, how she dealt with industrial policy in the 1980s is open to discussion, whilst a lot of it was necessary how she went about things, and what she left in her wake re large parts of the UK, was not necessary- some of the disaffection in places like the NE directly flows from how she did what she did.
All the things in bold make her a hero. Ofc it was messy but eh, needed to be done and better sooner rather than me be down a blimming mine.
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DJKL
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#35
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#35
(Original post by ColinDent)
The EU do not include financial services in any trade deals, we can do better.
Also these other financial hubs that you mention are not viable as they are in the wrong timezone and the main language is not English, and they lack the expertise that the City offers.
They do permit passporting of rights via the SM , we are giving these up.

And from little acorns mighty oaks grow, I was in Frankfurt in 2017 as my son was living there contracting for a large german bank (software developer), awful lot of building going on (offices) and a veritable united nations of nationalities.

Time zones being one hour apart is not going to cause that many issues, early starts and long hours go hand in hand with the markets as I know from experience ( My wife was, long time ago, a quant analyst with various financial institutions (Natwest Markets,Deutsche,Bankers Trust, Baillie Gifford), I observed her working hours, do not really see one hour difference as much of a problem)
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ColinDent
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#36
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#36
(Original post by 999tigger)
It will hurt both sides, but we produce a lot less than they do so it will be easier for them to supply themselves from inside the single market. It will make more sense for them to put new investment in other EU countries than here unless we can make a compelling case.

Cant see your point. Multi nationals will invest where their markets are or where they have the best means of production. hence Landrover or Ford having no qualms about axing jobs in the UK and investing elsewhere.

Will have to see what happens.
Okay let's take the example of the gearboxes, they cannot simply replace what they currently use without changing their whole engine design, there is also the simple fact that whatever they replace it with will be inferior, and that is just 1 car part amongst many that British designed and engineered is acknowledged to be the best.
Ford are currently considering cutting back hugely in the European market so it won't just be in the UK that jobs would be axed.
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Miss Maddie
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#37
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#37
(Original post by 999tigger)
Not completely true.
It can make the UK be more likely to suffer job cuts.
Receive less investment.
Have other jobs relocated within the EU.

Other important factors though such as technology and cheaper markets. They are all factors.
Other jobs relocated to EU

- Cadbury to Polad in 2011 using EU grant
- Ford Transit to Turkey inn 2013 using EU grant
- Jaguar Land Rover moved to new plant in Slovakia using EU money. Peugeout did as well
- Army's AJAZ vehicles being built in Spain using Swedish steel having EU rant. Done at request to help Spanish jobs. Wales missed out
- Dyson used EU grant to move to Malaysia
- M&S moved to far east using EU loan
- Hornby models relocated to EU using EU grant
- Gillette relocated to Eastern Europe using EU grant
- Texas Instruments to Germany uing EU grant
- Indesit in Wales left using EU grant
- Sekisui Alveo left Wales using EU grant. Went to Holland
- Hoover left UK for Czech Republic with EU backing. EU loved the impact it would have on Czech Republic
- JDS Uniphase from Holland bought up British compeition using £20m in EU regeneration grant. They closed every single one and moved manuacturing to Holland. 1200 lost jobs and the pension pots were emptied.
-ICI integrated into Holland's AkzoNobel using EU bank loan. Within days 3000 jobs lost in UK

I said Brexit had nothing to do. I was wrong. The EU pays for manufacturing to leave

Other important factors though such as technology and cheaper markets. They are all factors."
Not brexit's fault.
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ColinDent
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#38
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#38
(Original post by DJKL)
They do permit passporting of rights via the SM , we are giving these up.

And from little acorns mighty oaks grow, I was in Frankfurt in 2017 as my son was living there contracting for a large german bank (software developer), awful lot of building going on (offices) and a veritable united nations of nationalities.

Time zones being one hour apart is not going to cause that many issues, early starts and long hours go hand in hand with the markets as I know from experience ( My wife was, long time ago, a quant analyst with various financial institutions (Natwest Markets,Deutsche,Bankers Trust, Baillie Gifford), I observed her working hours, do not really see one hour difference as much of a problem)
But they do not include financial services in any other trade deals and that is actually detrimental to what is our strongest sector.
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999tigger
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#39
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#39
(Original post by TommyDH)
Yep 100%

People don't like to hear it, but things from minimum wage to health and safety to over-regulation of just about everything means manufacturing in a first world country is an absolute nightmare, it's not worth the red tape and it's certainly not worth the loss of profit.

Manufacturing leaving has nothing to do with leaving the EU, since manufacturing has been leaving for the past 70 years. We barely even manufacture anything anymore anyway, so anything that leaves now will leave a negligible mark on the economy at very worst.

Where we are making the majority of our money now is the financial sector and services.

It'd be nice to have a booming industry again like we had in the 19th century, but unless you're willing to cut up all red tape, do away with 90% of all regulations and scrap minimum wage then it's not going to happen. The EU being a bureaucratic nightmare only exacerbates things, it won't make anything better.

Wish May stayed in biochemistry tbh. Worse home secretary in history and the worst prime minister.
This is a gross simplification and inaccurate.
We still have 2.6 million jobs directly in manufacturing in this country, its responsible for 10% of GDP and 44% of exports. Exports tend to be quite important for a country in order to earn foreign currency. Some things we are very good at making so to say we barely manufacture anything any more is a lie.

The Germans manage to be a manufacturing powerhouse and they dont find it a nightmare.

To say manufacturing leaving has nothing to do with leaving the EU is also inaccurate. It is now an important factor when companies make investment decisions.

Being in the single market is an attraction.
Having undisrupted supply lines is an attraction.
Getting extra grants is an attraction.
Investing in an unstable/ uncertain economy is not an attraction.

These things can influence where a business wants to locate, invest or protect. If a manufacturer has a choice between the UK and the EU mainland, then this can put the UK at a disadvantage. Ofc some jobs will go to the rest of the world. This is why there has been a large slowdown in UK investment because companies do not know and are not confident enough to make capital decisions to invest in the UK.
Last edited by 999tigger; 3 weeks ago
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ByEeek
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#40
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#40
(Original post by ColinDent)
https://www.theguardian.com/business...celled-flights

Don't feel I need any more evidence.
Ha! That is hilarious. That is a full on ROTFLMAO!!! You are a proponent for the destruction of the EU and their regressive laws that strangle us, yet you cite a company that isn't sticking to EUs very own flight compensation rules as being thieving.

So which is it? The EU and their laws that protect us as EU citizens or Ryanair who don't want follow those laws like you because you want out of the EU?
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