I'm considering quitting Pupillage. Has anyone done that before?
I'm almost 4 months in and I don't think I ever wanted this. I don't like so many aspects of it and I think I want out of the law. I initially thought I'd just ride out the rest a) for the money and b) to be able to say I've finished it, but I don't think I'll actually make it to the end physically, mentally and emotionally. I'm wondering if I should cut my losses and leave now, or at the end of First Six at least.
The problem is, I can't find a single account online of someone who's actually quit pupillage (although there are several posts on quitting TCs). It almost feels taboo. I'm just looking for some guidance.
Anyone?
The problem is, I can't find a single account online of someone who's actually quit pupillage (although there are several posts on quitting TCs). It almost feels taboo. I'm just looking for some guidance.
Anyone?
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Original post by mirispoonie
I'm almost 4 months in and I don't think I ever wanted this. I don't like so many aspects of it and I think I want out of the law. I initially thought I'd just ride out the rest a) for the money and b) to be able to say I've finished it, but I don't think I'll actually make it to the end physically, mentally and emotionally. I'm wondering if I should cut my losses and leave now, or at the end of First Six at least.
The problem is, I can't find a single account online of someone who's actually quit pupillage (although there are several posts on quitting TCs). It almost feels taboo. I'm just looking for some guidance.
Anyone?
The problem is, I can't find a single account online of someone who's actually quit pupillage (although there are several posts on quitting TCs). It almost feels taboo. I'm just looking for some guidance.
Anyone?
I'm sure people have
Are you absolutely sure you cant finish? I assume theres no one in chambers you can talk to?
What about your Inn? There should be some sort of young barristers group?
Is it the chambers, people, the profession or just this stage in your life? Lots of barristers quit and then go off to work in law firms for a different, less lonely and more stable career.
Plenty of people quit the profession altogether.
Go and ask on ROF to talk to the few barristers on there.
Original post by mirispoonie
I'm almost 4 months in and I don't think I ever wanted this. I don't like so many aspects of it and I think I want out of the law. I initially thought I'd just ride out the rest a) for the money and b) to be able to say I've finished it, but I don't think I'll actually make it to the end physically, mentally and emotionally. I'm wondering if I should cut my losses and leave now, or at the end of First Six at least.
The problem is, I can't find a single account online of someone who's actually quit pupillage (although there are several posts on quitting TCs). It almost feels taboo. I'm just looking for some guidance.
Anyone?
The problem is, I can't find a single account online of someone who's actually quit pupillage (although there are several posts on quitting TCs). It almost feels taboo. I'm just looking for some guidance.
Anyone?
IMHO, you are asking the wrong question. It is irrelevant if other people have left, what is relevant, is how this may affect you in the future. My personal opinion is for you to at least tough out your 1st six. I would also take the advice offered perviously, if you dont feel comfortable discussing your dilemna with someone in Chambers, seek solace in your Inn or someone whom you trust.
At the very least when you finish you will have tangible transferable skills, and perhaps with a change of scenery (new Pupil Master, area of focus etc) you might be able to finish your second six. Afterwhich you will be a fully qualified Barrister, who is free to pursue whatever careerpath you choose. And having the title of Barrister on your CV, may open more doors to something you find more palatable. Also for future interviews, you can expound on how you have personally demonstrated perseverance in the face of adversity, while also keeping the long view in focus.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Original post by 999tigger
Are you absolutely sure you cant finish? I assume theres no one in chambers you can talk to?
What about your Inn? There should be some sort of young barristers group?
Is it the chambers, people, the profession or just this stage in your life? Lots of barristers quit and then go off to work in law firms for a different, less lonely and more stable career.
Plenty of people quit the profession altogether.
Go and ask on ROF to talk to the few barristers on there.
What about your Inn? There should be some sort of young barristers group?
Is it the chambers, people, the profession or just this stage in your life? Lots of barristers quit and then go off to work in law firms for a different, less lonely and more stable career.
Plenty of people quit the profession altogether.
Go and ask on ROF to talk to the few barristers on there.
Thanks. I've spoken to a couple of people but haven't said I was thinking of quitting, just that I was struggling. Everyone is very helpful and encouraging.
It's everything but the chambers and people, i.e. it's just the law. The lifestyle. The time black hole. The fact that I'll struggle to have kids when I want. Working at home constantly. The ironic lack of structure and lack of certainty in my day-to-day work. The sheer intellectual difficulty of it. I just don't think it's for me at all, and I don't think it ever was. I think I just made myself do this so I had a sensible job, whereas my interests lie elsewhere.
As for whether or not I can finish - of course I can finish, despite almost daily panic, stress and the occasional nervous breakdown (hah). The question is whether finishing is worth all of that. And the question is also whether I can stop doing all of that long enough to get through this.
Original post by vnupe
IMHO, you are asking the wrong question. It is irrelevant if other people have left, what is relevant, is how this may affect you in the future. My personal opinion is for you to at least tough out your 1st six. I would also take the advice offered perviously, if you dont feel comfortable discussing your dilemna with someone in Chambers, seek solace in your Inn or someone whom you trust.
At the very least when you finish you will have tangible transferable skills, and perhaps with a change of scenery (new Pupil Master, area of focus etc) you might be able to finish your second six. Afterwhich you will be a fully qualified Barrister, who is free to pursue whatever careerpath you choose. And having the title of Barrister on your CV, may open more doors to something you find more palatable. Also for future interviews, you can expound on how you have personally demonstrated perseverance in the face of adversity, while also keeping the long view in focus.
Hope this helps and good luck.
At the very least when you finish you will have tangible transferable skills, and perhaps with a change of scenery (new Pupil Master, area of focus etc) you might be able to finish your second six. Afterwhich you will be a fully qualified Barrister, who is free to pursue whatever careerpath you choose. And having the title of Barrister on your CV, may open more doors to something you find more palatable. Also for future interviews, you can expound on how you have personally demonstrated perseverance in the face of adversity, while also keeping the long view in focus.
Hope this helps and good luck.
You're right, but I would have felt reassured to see that other people have done it.
I'm going to meet with a friend this week in chambers and maybe confess how I'm really feeling. But I think they will just tell me what everyone does - stick it out, "it's only 9 months". The thing is, when the state of my life has suddenly become clear to me I don't want to waste another minute in getting down to following my other ambitions.
You're absolutely right re transferrable skills. Fully aware that the best choice is to stick it out entirely and even maybe apply for tenancy so I can say on my CV that I was offered a place, in case I ever go back into the field later/do something similar. I just wish I'd come to this realisation much later on.
Ugh.
Have a serious think about it. Remind yourself of why you chose this career path initially and the struggles (I assume) you went through to obtain a pupillage.
And if you decide this definitely is not for you and you definitely want to do something else, I would recommend making a 5 year plan and outlining the steps you will take to achieve what you want.
If I were in your shoes I would NOT leave a pupillage to go out into the uncertain. The only conditions I would leave on would be - future job (maybe educational) security. Like a previous poster said, having this on your CV will open many doors for you anyway - some people, after pupillage, decide to work in other areas of law.
The ball really is in your court (haha) on this one. Just please, make a well informed decision. Don’t throw away the opportunity of a lifetime for a a lifetime of uncertainty.
(I have taken into account what you’ve said about this taking a toll on your wellbeing, and I do believe that training for a good deal of professions is going to be this way. If you have the credentials to be accepted for a pupillage, I’m sure you will be able to get into very good jobs, but I’m also afraid that the training will be just as strenuous (unless you have a particular area in mind that you are very passionate about - in which case, perhaps you will enjoy being there more which will compensate for the workload).
Best wishes to you and keep me updated.
And if you decide this definitely is not for you and you definitely want to do something else, I would recommend making a 5 year plan and outlining the steps you will take to achieve what you want.
If I were in your shoes I would NOT leave a pupillage to go out into the uncertain. The only conditions I would leave on would be - future job (maybe educational) security. Like a previous poster said, having this on your CV will open many doors for you anyway - some people, after pupillage, decide to work in other areas of law.
The ball really is in your court (haha) on this one. Just please, make a well informed decision. Don’t throw away the opportunity of a lifetime for a a lifetime of uncertainty.
(I have taken into account what you’ve said about this taking a toll on your wellbeing, and I do believe that training for a good deal of professions is going to be this way. If you have the credentials to be accepted for a pupillage, I’m sure you will be able to get into very good jobs, but I’m also afraid that the training will be just as strenuous (unless you have a particular area in mind that you are very passionate about - in which case, perhaps you will enjoy being there more which will compensate for the workload).
Best wishes to you and keep me updated.
(edited 6 years ago)
There's a lot to get into here, and I would have thought too much to effectively deal with in a thread like this. I've sent you a PM about possibly talking through this over the phone. Anonymously, if you like. Get back to me and let me know. Obviously if you'd prefer me to contribute more substantively in this thread, I can do that too.
Personally, I would worry about what the decision to leave now would look like, and how that would impact on anything I decided to do in the future.
If you make it to the end and receive an offer of tenancy, and then decide to leave the Bar, you make that decision from a position of strength and success. The perception will be that you have simply decided that it isn't for you, and, if it becomes clear that you were considering leaving earlier, it will stand to your credit that you stuck it out regardless. That shows willpower. That is the sort of person people will want to employ in other fields.
If you leave now, you make that decision from a position of weakness. It will look as though you've more acquiesced than made a positive, confident choice. The perception will be that you entirely wasted four months of your time, having been unable to cope with the (foreseeable) demands of what you set out to do. It will count against you that you could not bring youself to see it through. This is not a story I would want to tell in interviews for other positions.
Whether these perceptions are fair isn't the point. The point is that they will follow you as you try to take a new route.
Now, some things are more important than your career. If it is really doing you harm, if you are really suffering from 'nervous breakdowns', you may wish to call it a day now regardless of what anyone may think. There is nothing illegitimate about that.
However, you've also said:
As for whether or not I can finish - of course I can finish
OP, in your position, I would not allow thoughts along the lines of 'I want to get on with doing something else' to play any role whatsoever in this. If you can cope, as you say you can, ride it out for a few months and get yourself qualified.
If you make it to the end and receive an offer of tenancy, and then decide to leave the Bar, you make that decision from a position of strength and success. The perception will be that you have simply decided that it isn't for you, and, if it becomes clear that you were considering leaving earlier, it will stand to your credit that you stuck it out regardless. That shows willpower. That is the sort of person people will want to employ in other fields.
If you leave now, you make that decision from a position of weakness. It will look as though you've more acquiesced than made a positive, confident choice. The perception will be that you entirely wasted four months of your time, having been unable to cope with the (foreseeable) demands of what you set out to do. It will count against you that you could not bring youself to see it through. This is not a story I would want to tell in interviews for other positions.
Whether these perceptions are fair isn't the point. The point is that they will follow you as you try to take a new route.
Now, some things are more important than your career. If it is really doing you harm, if you are really suffering from 'nervous breakdowns', you may wish to call it a day now regardless of what anyone may think. There is nothing illegitimate about that.
However, you've also said:
Original post by mirispoonie
As for whether or not I can finish - of course I can finish
OP, in your position, I would not allow thoughts along the lines of 'I want to get on with doing something else' to play any role whatsoever in this. If you can cope, as you say you can, ride it out for a few months and get yourself qualified.
Point taken from all of you - and responses were appreciated. I'm going to give this all some serious (mature) and rational thought.
Original post by lglg92!
I do not have advice but I just wanted to commiserate with you. I am in this exact situation and I have nobody to talk to about it! I also have the exact same concerns. I don't know how I'm going to make it to October. What have you decided to do, out of interest?
Hi there, sorry I didn't see this until now. Replying to you in the thread rather than in a PM in case others are interested the updates! But equally happy to speak to you privately (and sort of "carry it forward" because another poster here talked me through things privately). In fact I'll PM you.
Since I posted, I realised (contrary to what I said) that the biggest problem was actually my current supervisor. It was his approach; the fact that our personalities didn't match at all; the fact that he is not a people person and somewhat socially inept; the fact that his manner gives the impression that he's actively avoiding creating a rapport with me (which isn't true, and he is a good person, but it strongly comes across like that); and the fact that he didn't know how to encourage. I realised how hard it was on me to constantly walk on eggshells around him and constantly adjust and suppress my own personality just to make the working relationship smooth, when I feel that the only thing I have that's keeping me sane during pupillage is my personality. I've since spoken to the relevant people to get advice, and had a chat with him in a very diplomatic way and he's improved somewhat. Where I am now - while all this was going on, 2 and a half months somehow passed and I'm now in second six. I forced myself to "accept" that I was going to stay and even though I'm still at maximum confusion about my career and my life, begrudgingly accepting that I have to finish has helped in some way. The fact is, I'm somehow managing to continue and not perform horribly. So, for now I continue. I'll PM you.
Original post by lglg92!
I do not have advice but I just wanted to commiserate with you. I am in this exact situation and I have nobody to talk to about it! I also have the exact same concerns. I don't know how I'm going to make it to October. What have you decided to do, out of interest?
Hi, I'm also finding myself in this position and only two months into pupillage. I feel like it's having a huge negative impact on my mental health, I'm depressed and constantly anxious and I really don't think this is what I want to do with my life. How did you get through your issues last year? Did you stick it out? Do you have any advice?
Hi! I have experienced exactly what you are going through now. Depression, anxiety, along with weight and hair loss. I did stick it out and I am now a qualified barrister. It was very anticlimactic. I am now an employed barrister working in a law firm. I feel much better in the law firm environment, although law is still quite a stressful career in my opinion.Sadly, my first piece of advice is a cliche (sorry!): take it one day at a time. My anxiety was heightened because the experience of pupillage was so horrible and I became obsessed with the fact that I would have to keep feeling that way for months and months and months. So I started telling myself “I will not quit today but I can quit tomorrow.” I did that everyday for the rest of pupillage. It helped.If you definitely cannot do that then you should quit. Remember that you are not letting anyone down. It is your life. In my experience, people don’t care as much about what you do as you think. If they do, they will just have to get over it. I’m rooting for you. All the best.
I almost did this due to a car crash year of personal events (family deaths and more) that tanked my mental health four months in. I harrowed through another three miserable months before finally confessing my problems to my supervisor. The chambers arranged for me to take a month out, which did me all kinds of favours and enabled me to finish pupillage. Though I ultimately decided not to stay to continue working on mental health issues, I highly recommend asking for a break and returning fresher to finish it. These days people are sympathetic and accommodating to that sort of thing.
Original post by Pupil337890
Hi, I'm also finding myself in this position and only two months into pupillage. I feel like it's having a huge negative impact on my mental health, I'm depressed and constantly anxious and I really don't think this is what I want to do with my life. How did you get through your issues last year? Did you stick it out? Do you have any advice?
What does your anxiety relate to? Is it the work itself?
What aspects of the job made you think that this was what you wanted to do with your life, and what is it that's causing you to feel otherwise now?
I may have some advice, but it's difficult to help without knowing where things are going wrong. I'm happy to take a PM if you like.
Original post by Pupil337890
Hi, I'm also finding myself in this position and only two months into pupillage. I feel like it's having a huge negative impact on my mental health, I'm depressed and constantly anxious and I really don't think this is what I want to do with my life. How did you get through your issues last year? Did you stick it out? Do you have any advice?
Hi, thread starter here. I strongly agree with the advice you received above, including considering time out if necessary. I also strongly encourage you to take up the offer to talk privately with someone who can offer help. I did from several people and some helped and some didn't, but all helped to make it clearer what I wanted and what I was capable of. Long story short, I ended up quitting pupillage shortly after second six began and it was the best decision I ever made. I felt like I was the only person who had ever done it (I wasn't) and everyone in the law told me to continue, but in the end I couldn't and didn't want to. Feel free to PM me as well if you'd like, but you're doing the right thing by reaching out!
For what it's worth, I was one of the people that @mirispoonie spoke to. Obviously I can't say if I was one of the helpful ones, but off the back of my post offering to talk someone else contacted me who was struggling in pupillage (who to my knowledge hasn't posted about it), and I spoke to them as well. They have now changed sets and are enjoying their career. I've reached out to Pupil337890 to talk as well and hopefully we'll be talking soon. The reason I mention all of that is for anybody who happens to be reading this and is struggling in pupillage, or struggling at the Bar in general, whether today or in five years, send me a PM and I'll make myself available to talk to you as well. The Bar can be a very lonely existence, but it doesn't need to be. Plenty of people will offer genuine, practical help if you ask, but I know that it can be difficult to ask other barristers that you know, particularly in your own set and particularly when you're a pupil or junior tenant. So use me as a barrister of about ten years call (at the time of writing) who you (almost certainly) don't know, and who can talk to you with without judgment and entirely anonymously if you want. I may even be able to offer some insight and practical options.
Alternatively, if you don't know anyone personally that you feel comfortable talking to, and don't want to contact me, the Bar Council has done a lot of work on wellbeing in recent years, and the Wellbeing At The Bar website is currently the best example of those efforts. There are a lot of sources of help there, so have a look around and see what you can find.
The final thing to say is this. Pupillage is a daunting experience that your years of study and work experience (even actual work) have almost certainly not prepared you for anywhere near as much as you would have wanted. The fact that you've done so well to get pupillage can make it feel somehow wrong to have to seek help, whether due to the stress and pressure of it or something else, but struggling with pupillage is nothing to be ashamed of. All barristers need help at some stage, whether it be during pupillage, just into tenancy, or a decade into practice. What we need takes many forms, from asking a more senior member of Chambers for guidance and asking your clerks to clear your diary because you're burnt out, to taking longer breaks and seeking more substantial help. There's no shame in any of it. In reality, everyone wants what is best for other members of their Chambers, and other members of the Bar. The fact that people rarely speak about how hard it is doesn't avoid the fact that we all know how hard it is. And you are surrounded by people who will help (even the anonymous ones on the internet). So reach out to who you can, and please get that help.
Alternatively, if you don't know anyone personally that you feel comfortable talking to, and don't want to contact me, the Bar Council has done a lot of work on wellbeing in recent years, and the Wellbeing At The Bar website is currently the best example of those efforts. There are a lot of sources of help there, so have a look around and see what you can find.
The final thing to say is this. Pupillage is a daunting experience that your years of study and work experience (even actual work) have almost certainly not prepared you for anywhere near as much as you would have wanted. The fact that you've done so well to get pupillage can make it feel somehow wrong to have to seek help, whether due to the stress and pressure of it or something else, but struggling with pupillage is nothing to be ashamed of. All barristers need help at some stage, whether it be during pupillage, just into tenancy, or a decade into practice. What we need takes many forms, from asking a more senior member of Chambers for guidance and asking your clerks to clear your diary because you're burnt out, to taking longer breaks and seeking more substantial help. There's no shame in any of it. In reality, everyone wants what is best for other members of their Chambers, and other members of the Bar. The fact that people rarely speak about how hard it is doesn't avoid the fact that we all know how hard it is. And you are surrounded by people who will help (even the anonymous ones on the internet). So reach out to who you can, and please get that help.
CrazieJamie was definitely one of the helpful ones, if not only for the time he took to make sure I was not going through it utterly alone. Talking is a life changer, especially in these circumstances - whatever the outcome. I didn’t want to volunteer him myself but, as I thought, he’s obviously willing to help you too and I highly recommend you take him up on that. Thanks again Jamie.
Hi guysI started pupillage only 2 weeks ago. I had already decided during the stress of acquiring pupillage and seeing what a barristers life is actually like during mini pupillages that the bar is not for me. However, I decided that I had come this far and that I needed to a) give it a go or b) atleast get my practicing certificate which would open many more doors for me career-wise.However, I am 2 weeks in and I literally don't think I can make it another 50. I hate every minute. Chambers are lovely and my supervisor is great but I am so anxious and feel horrendous. I cannot work so hard and in the high pressure/scrutiny way that this job requires.To those above who (as you posted one year ago) will have either left pupillage, seen it through then left the bar or seen it through and stayed:- does having a practicing certificate actually open doors ?- and even if it does, do you regret seeing it through and pushing through? i just don't think anything could be worth feeling like this and that I would be doing my life a huge disservice by giving up another 11 months of it to feeling this way.thank you in advance!
Original post by A1991
Hi guysI started pupillage only 2 weeks ago. I had already decided during the stress of acquiring pupillage and seeing what a barristers life is actually like during mini pupillages that the bar is not for me. However, I decided that I had come this far and that I needed to a) give it a go or b) atleast get my practicing certificate which would open many more doors for me career-wise.However, I am 2 weeks in and I literally don't think I can make it another 50. I hate every minute. Chambers are lovely and my supervisor is great but I am so anxious and feel horrendous. I cannot work so hard and in the high pressure/scrutiny way that this job requires.To those above who (as you posted one year ago) will have either left pupillage, seen it through then left the bar or seen it through and stayed:- does having a practicing certificate actually open doors ?- and even if it does, do you regret seeing it through and pushing through? i just don't think anything could be worth feeling like this and that I would be doing my life a huge disservice by giving up another 11 months of it to feeling this way.thank you in advance!
Respectfully, I am not attempting to discount your current feelings etc., however one (1) year may seem like an eternity at this point in your life (assuming you are between 23 -25 or ‘round about this age) but I can assure you it is not, in the grand scheme of things (that being the working period of your life).
I am of the opinion, that if you dont at least stick around for at least your first six, you will most likely regret it. Two weeks in not a huge amount of time to assess the entirety of pupillage. I will not sugarcoat it, pupillage is not for the faint of heart and it will only get tougher from this point. But it is a necessary and vital year of experience for all barristers.
Having said that, it also is the perfect cauldron to hone a lot of skills (soft and otherwise) that will be valued outside of the profession. You demonstrate you can work under pressure with sometimes (read as most times) minimal supervision. That you can (and have been tested) demonstrate the ability to structure an argument literally on your feet amongst a myriad other skills that escape me at this time of night.
Moreover, I urge you to make an informed decision, whichever way it ends. I would not wish you to have regret later in life. One of the worst things in life is a bunch “what ifs”.
I sincerely hope this helps.
Bonne chance
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