Any positives about brexit Watch

Burton Bridge
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#21
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#21
(Original post by old_dude)
The UK joining the EEC played no part in the demise of its manufacturing. It was the deliberate strategy of Margaret Thatcher to abandon old industries in favour of financial services, which the UK could grow thanks to the Single Market. By doing that, she however condemned many parts of the country and mostly favoured the South East.
In no part have I said the UK politicians have played no part, this is because I know this would be very neive and highly open to debate however you claim the EU to be totally blameless? Interesting explain please?

(Original post by old_dude)
Now you're just silly.
Oh I am? Maybe a you could do a little reserch before you throw such flippant assumptions about me around?

(Original post by old_dude)

What do you mean "too big for its boots"?

Intrusive regarding being political Controling, particularly with how many unelected people are making such rules.


(Original post by old_dude)
The "people" never said they wanted to leave on WTO rules. The vote was only about "leaving the EU". The UK could stay in the Single Market and Customs Union; it would still respect the people's vote.
So let's leave then and the people said we should leave on WTO rules far more than they said we want a losers vote
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jameswhughes
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#22
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(Original post by old_dude)
Businesses tend to avoid making announcements saying "we're going to fire thousands of people". They establish a subsidiary in another country, with all the new jobs are created there, while they let the former site slowly die of attrition.
There's only speculation of that so far, we haven't seen anything that suggest there will be wide scale job losses. Sure, there's always a threat of offices closing to move to somewhere with cheaper labour, or because of automation and other ways to cut costs, but this can happen all the time anyway.
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Burton Bridge
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#23
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(Original post by jameswhughes)
There's only speculation of that so far, we haven't seen anything that suggest there will be wide scale job losses. Sure, there's always a threat of offices closing to move to somewhere with cheaper labour, or because of automation and other ways to cut costs, but this can happen all the time anyway.
Also if your company gets some benefits from the EU you don't wish to lose, what would you do to try to keep them?
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old_dude
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
In no part have I said the UK politicians have played no part, this is because I know this would be very neive and highly open to debate however you claim the EU to be totally blameless? Interesting explain please?
I did not claim the EU was totally blameless (of what exactly?), but I have noticed that Brexiters tend to attribute the failures of the UK to the EU (economy, immigration), while these were mainly the responsability of the British government.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Oh I am? Maybe a you could do a little reserch before you throw such flippant assumptions about me around?
Yes, you are. The EU did not fund relocation of British businesses to the EU or elsewhere.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Intrusive regarding being political Controling, particularly with how many unelected people are making such rules.
Most of European rules are made by the EU parliament (elected) and the European council, composed of the heads of state/government (elected). The UK has always had a veto. All the rules you complain about were consented by the British Prime Minister of the time. Blame them.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
So let's leave then and the people said we should leave on WTO rules far more than they said we want a losers vote
"The people said", where?
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hello_shawn
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#25
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Leaving the EU would be totally justified if it meant the politicians who are meant to serve us will have nothing to blame for their own failures.
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Burton Bridge
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#26
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Old lad you clutching at straws the people clearly voted to leave ve the EU in a referendum decribed by the leader of the REMAIN campaign as a one in a generation decision to put the issue once and for all to bed. You can twist and shout all you like but the fact is the people voted the nation decided to leave, the political leaders agreed and voted for article 50 which clearly states WTO rules at the end. You can shout and cry all you wish but you wont change the fact the people voted to leave, there is no acceptable deal so the oy option is leave on Wto rules or go against the will of the people.

You really need to look into the European model because you are incorrect regarding how many unelected by the electorate servants there are. Even pro EU propaganda by the BBC cannot skirt around this, try as they may the facts are the facts. Talking of which you can strap that blindfold nice a d tight but unfortunately it does not change the the truth the EU has funded several businesses however some indirectly, Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant for one, I doubt you will read it but

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/100...Transit_plant/

I'm not stupid just I live in the real world
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Duncan2012
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#27
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#27
(Original post by richard10012)
...biased opinion...
Dyson literally said this had nothing to do with Brexit.
Warner Bros decided to keep their European HQ in London (building lease extended until 2034).
Sumitomo signed a 20 year lease for their European HQ in London.

Sure, some companies move some operations abroad. Businesses do that all the time. Setting up a European subsidiary isn't the end of the world you seem to think. Multi-nationals are also setting up UK subsidiaries. A couple of years ago everyone hated bankers but now you want them to stay.

A CEO's obligations are to his/her shareholders, not society or the country. The benefits of Brexit have little to do with how much profit multi-nationals can make, and should be viewed in a longer term context, not how the markets react in the very short term.
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old_dude
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Old lad you clutching at straws the people clearly voted to leave ve the EU in a referendum decribed by the leader of the REMAIN campaign as a one in a generation decision to put the issue once and for all to bed. You can twist and shout all you like but the fact is the people voted the nation decided to leave, the political leaders agreed and voted for article 50 which clearly states WTO rules at the end. You can shout and cry all you wish but you wont change the fact the people voted to leave, there is no acceptable deal so the oy option is leave on Wto rules or go against the will of the people.
I'm not shouting, nor twisting.

The referendum was about leaving the EU, not the Single Market or the Customs Union. I also remember some prominent Brexiters saying that "of course we'll make a deal with the EU", "it will be the easiest deal in history", etc. I however don't remember many statements made before the referendum that the UK will leave on WTO terms (which means visas, border controls, massive reduction of trade, etc.).

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
You really need to look into the European model because you are incorrect regarding how many unelected by the electorate servants there are.
Public servants are generally not elected, anywhere.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Even pro EU propaganda by the BBC cannot skirt around this, try as they may the facts are the facts. Talking of which you can strap that blindfold nice a d tight but unfortunately it does not change the the truth the EU has funded several businesses however some indirectly, Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant for one, I doubt you will read it but

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/100...Transit_plant/
Link says "loan", not "grant". It also says Ford UK received a £450 million loan in 2010 (compared to £80 million for Ford Turkey). The EIB gives many loans to developing countries around the world; and Turkey is a member of the Customs Union. The real scandal here is that Ford moves left the UK after having received a big help to invest there from the EIB.
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Notoriety
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#29
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Loss of EAW might be good for citizens facing surrender requests from the likes of Bulgaria, who simply have a less impartial judiciary and criminal justice system. Outside of the EAW, our judges receiving request can have a deeper look into the alleged crime to determine if it's surrender-worthy and I submit we will have greater human rights protections by not surrendering requested persons automatically.

E.g. there was a Portuguese case where a football hooligan firefighter faced an expedited prosecution, even though the court had no translation facilities and the man had limited access to legal representation. He returned to the UK after this, lived a normal life for several years; then Portugal made an EAW request. Our courts, owing to the mutual respect we have for our EU-MSs compatriots, said the EAW must be complied with. It is the only most extraordinary case in which the courts will deviate from this principle of ultra-mutual respect.
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Burton Bridge
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#30
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(Original post by old_dude)
I'm not shouting, nor twisting.

The referendum was about leaving the EU, not the Single Market or the Customs Union. I also remember some prominent Brexiters saying that "of course we'll make a deal with the EU", "it will be the easiest deal in history", etc. I however don't remember many statements made before the referendum that the UK will leave on WTO terms (which means visas, border controls, massive reduction of trade, etc.).


Public servants are generally not elected, anywhere.


Link says "loan", not "grant". It also says Ford UK received a £450 million loan in 2010 (compared to £80 million for Ford Turkey). The EIB gives many loans to developing countries around the world; and Turkey is a member of the Customs Union. The real scandal here is that Ford moves left the UK after having received a big help to invest there from the EIB.
You simply are twisting what we voted for to suit your and your own views we was told clearly listen for yourself 1:50

https://youtu.be/w87GNWJHtFM

We knew what we were voting for, we want to leave.

It's the sheer amount of and the power they hold which sits uneasy with me, however I do take your point our own system is far from perfect regarding unelected figures, however two wrongs don't make a right. It's not OK because we do it, the inspector was looking at the EU at the time and they did not like what they saw.


Regarding Ford you have managed to defend Ford and the EU when even the www.Ilovetheeu.co.uk website could not! I'm not sure if thats a sign of dedication or delusion?
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old_dude
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
You simply are twisting what we voted for to suit your and your own views we was told clearly listen for yourself 1:50

https://youtu.be/w87GNWJHtFM
What Cameron said before the vote is irrelevant. The only thing that matters was what was written on the ballot. It was not written "leave on WTO terms"; this is your interpretation. Staying in the CU and SM is a perfectly valid solution.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
We knew what we were voting for, we want to leave.

It's the sheer amount of and the power they hold which sits uneasy with me, however I do take your point our own system is far from perfect regarding unelected figures, however two wrongs don't make a right. It's not OK because we do it, the inspector was looking at the EU at the time and they did not like what they saw.
Regarding Ford you have managed to defend Ford and the EU when even the www.Ilovetheeu.co.uk website could not! I'm not sure if thats a sign of dedication or delusion?
Where did I defend Ford exactly?
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DSutch
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#32
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I can only think of one. That 22 UKIP MEPS will not have a job.
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old_dude
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#33
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(Original post by DSutch)
I can only think of one. That 22 UKIP MEPS will not have a job.
They will keep their juicy EU pension though.
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Burton Bridge
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#34
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(Original post by old_dude)
What Cameron said before the vote is irrelevant. The only thing that matters was what was written on the ballot. It was not written "leave on WTO terms"; this is your interpretation. Staying in the CU and SM is a perfectly valid solution.
What Cameron said is irrelevant? As the then prime minister and leader of the remain campaign I would say what he said to the electriate was anything but irrelevant! If we cannot get agreement before May then the default agreed position is WTO rules, that's fact.

For the sake of gaining some common ground I agree that gaining access to the CU as long as it doesn't tie us too deeply into EU laws which we will have no say over, could be a possibility but it's not going to happen.

I'll tell you what the British people did not vote for Brexit on name only, they did not vote in anyway for a Norway deal. There is no mandate for that whatsoever however there is for a exit on WTO rules if the EU wishes to cut its nose off spite of its face.
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ByEeek
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#35
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
So how do you explain the demise of UK manufacturing that has accured since joining the EEC/EU?
Is there any credence to this? I note the likes of Brexiteers like John Redwood point to this and provide facts to back it up
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/06...n-uk-industry/

For example, apparently our cement industry is smaller than it was as is our fishing industry (forgetting of course that fish stocks have been on the decline for 100 years or so). But is it fair to compare output by tonnage and suggest that that shows a decline in our industry?

I think not. Britain is the 8th biggest manufacturer in the world and pound for pound, long gone are the days when men with shovels and hammers made low value widgets for export around the world. Now, the UK is a beacon of high value, high tech manufactured items like cars, planes, satellites, chemicals and food. I couldn't give a stuff about the demise of the widget industry where unskilled labourers made nails by hand. The value in Britain's industry is in its skills and expertise not in the cheapness of its labour.

And other sources would say that the value of our manufacturing (which is ultimately what pays the bills) has risen by around 1.4% a year since the 40s.
https://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-m...ng-statistics/

Who cares if we only export 14,000 tonnes of cement compared to 28,000 tonnes yesteryear. Chances are, 100 Maclaren F1 cars are worth way more than that any day.
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Rakas21
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#36
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No more agricultural subsidies.
No more foreign fishing.
No more banking regulation preventing us from clearing Yuan and Rupees.
No more objections to ‘state aid’ and discrimination in favour of British business.
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paul514
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#37
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(Original post by Rakas21)
No more agricultural subsidies.
No more foreign fishing.
No more banking regulation preventing us from clearing Yuan and Rupees.
No more objections to ‘state aid’ and discrimination in favour of British business.
The last point is very important, would Redcar really have been an issue if government projects using steel were going to British manufacturers if they were fairly price competitive?

I doubt it they are paying tax, NI and giving employment and that should be factored in.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by paul514)
The last point is very important, would Redcar really have been an issue if government projects using steel were going to British manufacturers if they were fairly price competitive?

I doubt it they are paying tax, NI and giving employment and that should be factored in.
I find it curious that this has suddenly become part of the debate. We seem to oppose agricultural subsisdy even though we as consumers we benefit from the cheap high quality, highly regulated foods that it produces. Yet we baulk at not being able to subsidise industry even though it is well understood that such subsidies don't really benefit anyone. And yet, all-the-while, Brexit as a thing is employing in excess of 3000 extra civil servants (government paid of course) which makes Redcar pale into insignificance. The bottom line is that we could save industrial jobs under the current rules. We just choose not to mainly because it makes no sense. As a country, we no longer make widgets. Perhaps the days of primary and major secondary industry have gone too, to be replaced by high value, high skill, high tech industries?
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Rakas21
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#39
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I find it curious that this has suddenly become part of the debate. We seem to oppose agricultural subsisdy even though we as consumers we benefit from the cheap high quality, highly regulated foods that it produces. Yet we baulk at not being able to subsidise industry even though it is well understood that such subsidies don't really benefit anyone. And yet, all-the-while, Brexit as a thing is employing in excess of 3000 extra civil servants (government paid of course) which makes Redcar pale into insignificance. The bottom line is that we could save industrial jobs under the current rules. We just choose not to mainly because it makes no sense. As a country, we no longer make widgets. Perhaps the days of primary and major secondary industry have gone too, to be replaced by high value, high skill, high tech industries?
Production of white goods or components for say telecommunications is actually high value and something we do well. The UK space sector for example indirectly supports more than 100,000 jobs. Production need not be sacrificed.

What it requires however is essentially a massive amount of automation across the industrial sector to basically reduce unit costs to as competitive a level as possible. This requires a robust state, strategy and capital in addition to discrimination in favour of business which produces domestically and currently these measures would be viewed in the context of state aid.

On the subject of cheap European food, many of us would argue that we could purchase Angolan bananas as cheaply without subsidy if free of tariffs imposed by Brussels.
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paul514
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#40
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Brexit: Push for more generous EU no-deal offer http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46995337


Will you look at that, we get to the point brexiteers have been arguing for an look at the cracks immediately appear
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