Is Every Option Forward within Brexit now a Betrayal? Watch

Poll: What is your preferred way forward?
No Deal exit (5)
26.32%
Stay within CU & SM (Norway) exit, (0)
0%
Irish Sea Border exit (1)
5.26%
Remain/status quo option (8)
42.11%
Remain further integration option (5)
26.32%
Something else (Please state) (0)
0%
Gmart
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One valid criticism of another vote is the idea of re-running the original vote.

With every side of Brexit being portrayed by different groups as a betrayal, could we not agree to have an alternative vote where the various ways forward, (the more the better), might be listed so that this gordian knot of an impasse can be better resolved.

I am thinking of a variety including:
  1. a No Deal exit,
  2. a within CU&SM (Norway) exit,
  3. an Irish Sea Border exit,
  4. a remain/status quo option,
  5. a remain further integration option.

Can anyone think of an option I've missed? This could only be described as different to the original vote and simply trying to get the electorate to truly inform the politicians in the necessary detail required to move forward as the original vote was evidently too binary to enable them to move forward.

And before both sides start shrieking just 'get out' or 'stay in' louder and louder as if that were an option, without listening to either side, it should be noted that the original vote was at least in part a cry for help from those left behind within our electorate. We should recognise this even if the idea of solving the consequences of globalisation might seem insurmountable, all sides would need to put forward how they might fix this practically rather than engaging within a prediction-based, 'believe' mentality more akin to the religious.

Certainly the argument that democracy might be better informed now as we better know the costs of the actual exit/remain we can see coming towards us is fair comment and hopefully not controversial. Now we need to use the education we have all 'enjoyed' over the last couple of years to move forward on this issue and start to address the true issues we face as a country.
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TensorTympani
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Brexit means Brexit.
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Gmart
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(Original post by TensorTympani)
Brexit means Brexit.
This tautology is one of the roots of the problem. The only way forward is to decide which way to go. There are many paths but just sticking our fingers in our ears and crying is not going to get us anywhere. We need to discuss how to move forward and if our elected representatives are caught between wanting to respect democracy but find its instructions impossible to carry out we need to try something else.
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hello_shawn
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Imo we shouldn't have had a referendum, we should have sold yellow vests. Leaderless protests are the best way to drive change, simply because if there IS a leader, just kill him off and the protests die...
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Fieldmichel
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I'm not signing any contract without reading the small print!
Oops I forgot (as it's gone on for so long!) there was no contract, but that's what we get!
If it was for them they wouldn't sign any paper without reading it !!

It's all written down already. We will get what we are given.

We're blind folded
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Burton Bridge
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I'm not voting, those options are simply a joke and are only there to split the leave vote so remainers can ignore the result of the first vote.

No opinion to remain can possibly be on a vote to how we move forward from here, without completing the destruction of trust in our political leaders.
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Gmart
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I'm not voting, those options are simply a joke and are only there to split the leave vote so remainers can ignore the result of the first vote.

No opinion to remain can possibly be on a vote to how we move forward from here, without completing the destruction of trust in our political leaders.
The Brexiteers tried and failed to get a deal they thought was reasonable. That's it, they had their chance but they failed to make the case good enough. Now it's just about identifying which least good way forward is now wanted.

Any case for change finished with that deal. It is a bad deal. Now we have a choice between a bad deal or remain. no deal is not an option no matter what people's egos are upset about it. If anyone thinks they have a better vision of a future outside the EU, then they should put it forward while we have membership.

This action will take away rights from not only us, but from our children.

You might not be happy with the options - give me a better one - both ways are split.

Imagine we get to the brink and then go for May's deal. Would you prefer that? Are you sure you have a majority for such a step? Are you nervous of the people turning around and questioning what the gains are?
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PilgrimOfTruth
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Remainers on every forum I frequent have tried this same "Sleight Of Hand" 2nd Referendum proposal ruse. It's lame, it's dishonest, it deliberately seeks to exploit the naivety of the less astute in the populous and is a total nonsense.

What the shameful Remainers are wanting is another vote in which THEIR REMAIN OPTION is left as it is but where the LEAVE option is split and fractured into MULTIPLE OPTIONS.

What that does is of course dilute the LEAVE vote.

An example. Current status is LEAVE 52%, REMAIN 48% so Leave won.

Now suppose we hold another referendum with the choices of:

REMAIN
LEAVE with No Deal
LEAVE with May's Deal

You have now split the LEAVE vote using stealth and skulduggery.

The Result could now come out as:

REMAIN - Same 48%
LEAVE No Deal - 32%
LEAVEMay's Deal - 20%

We clearly have the same number of people wanting to LEAVE (52%) and REMAIN still only have 48% yet in the results about REMAIN would win because NO SINGLE LEAVE OPTION is greater than their 48%


DO NOT FALL FOR THIS REMAINER BS


It is nothing more than sleight of hand trickery designed to bamboozle the less astute. In short they are trying to con you because THEY think YOU are too thick to notice your Leave vote would be diluted. Be angry imho.
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Andrew97
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Remain, further integration. We all know what that means. Adopting the Euro, which nobody wants.
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Gmart
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
Remainers on every forum I frequent have tried this same "Sleight Of Hand" 2nd Referendum proposal ruse. It's lame, it's dishonest, it deliberately seeks to exploit the naivety of the less astute in the populous and is a total nonsense.

What the shameful Remainers are wanting is another vote in which THEIR REMAIN OPTION is left as it is but where the LEAVE option is split and fractured into MULTIPLE OPTIONS.

What that does is of course dilute the LEAVE vote.

An example. Current status is LEAVE 52%, REMAIN 48% so Leave won.

Now suppose we hold another referendum with the choices of:

REMAIN
LEAVE with No Deal
LEAVE with May's Deal

You have now split the LEAVE vote using stealth and skulduggery.

The Result could now come out as:

REMAIN - Same 48%
LEAVE No Deal - 32%
LEAVEMay's Deal - 20%

We clearly have the same number of people wanting to LEAVE (52%) and REMAIN still only have 48% yet in the results about REMAIN would win because NO SINGLE LEAVE OPTION is greater than their 48%


DO NOT FALL FOR THIS REMAINER BS


It is nothing more than sleight of hand trickery designed to bamboozle the less astute. In short they are trying to con you because THEY think YOU are too thick to notice your Leave vote would be diluted. Be angry imho.
The Brexit vision is dead - the con is realised - if you get it through now it will be an act of oppression.

There were always many visions of Brexit, as there were only one for Remain. An alternative vote would enable the most popular form of Brexit to compete on an even playing field.
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PilgrimOfTruth
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(Original post by Gmart)
The Brexiteers tried and failed to get a deal they thought was reasonable. That's it, they had their chance but they failed to make the case good enough. Now it's just about identifying which least good way forward is now wanted.
This is utter nonsense.

The EU are utterly desperate for us not to Leave. Not simply because of the £39 billion they wouldn't get from us, no, that's actually insignificant to them. The wider problem is that when one member state is allowed to successfully leave it demonstrates to the entire world how corrupt and untenable the power mad megalomaniacs in Brussels have become. It's like taking your loving son or daughter to the Oscars and then seeing them scream and shout and storm out infront of the whole world. The EU are desperate for us not to leave because they know that it will be the start of numerous other Exits from the other 27 member states.

As a result they have done everything they can to prevent our Leaving and care not one jot about the will of the UK people and our democratic referendum.

Leavers HAVEN'T tried to construct a deal. The EU has very clearly imposed the deal on May who (being a politician working for the EU) has done what she has been told to do and tabled it before parliament.
That deal has been rightly rejected because it is a false/fake deal. It is a deal that doesn't actually see us Leave the EU at all.

The EU is pulling the strings of our politicians, which is reason enough for us to seek to detach ourselves from their dictatorship.

They have ensured that we have no options at all other than to drop out without a deal, which is the LEGAL, PERFECTLY NATURAL default position.

In short the EU has done what it can to ensure that we are damaged, to ensure that Leaving hurts us as much as it can, in order to punish us and to make a clear example to all other member states should they too be daring to have the audacity of thinking to Leave the EU.

There is I am afraid ONLY ONE WAY TO LEAVE THE EU.

That is NO DEAL

We must collectively realise that the EU megalomaniacs are NEVER going to offer us any deal which actually lets us leave the control of the EU and ECJ, and certainly no deal that sees us Leave with any degree of stability. These are the people some think are great future bedfellows ! Go Figure !


Wake up people because your very system of democracy is now in huge peril. Your very freedoms in a free world, underpinned as they have been for 100s of years with the Constitutional elements that your grandparents and great grandparents fought and died for, are about to be wrested from you unless you stand up and see what is happening.

Our freedoms are founded on the Magna Carta, The Declaration Of Rights, The Bill Of Rights, Common Law and so on. These have long stated that:

"no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm."

Hence it can be seen that corrupt fraudulent politicians for the past 40 years have cast aside our constitutional laws and sold us down the river to a foreign power, the EU. They tried to abolish the sovereignty of this country and destroy our Nationality and overtook our justice system with their own, the ECJ. All of it totally against our long standing Constitution.

The damage now needs to be undone. We have many steps to take to restore our country and rid it of the operatives who have worked against the interests of the country and its people and who instead have been working for foreign powers.

Leaving the EU is the first vital step

It will only happen via a NO DEAL, there is no other way

Thinking that some compromise deal can be struck, that the EU will somehow allow us to leave amicably on decent terms, is an exercise in futility and self-delusion. It simply is not going to happen.

We must FIRST leave with No Deal and THEN invite the EU back to the negotiating table where things will then be very different. We will then have £39 billion to bargain with and all of our trade which of course they do want and need.

The EU fears us leaving with NO DEAL more than any other outcome ostensibly because it DOES ACTUALLY SEE US LEAVE !

They can not afford for us to Leave because it would herald the collapse of the EU.

hence we are now seeing MASSIVE media and social media campaigns to keep putting out the mantra's that :

"No deal will be catastrophic"
"No deal can't be allowed"
"No deal would be 'crashing out'"

and endless other sound bites and rhetoric.

Its all Billy BS. They are desperate for us not to Leave.

That should strengthen your resolve completely towards Leaving.

This is not an organisation that cares about our country or its people save to exploit it for its own ends. This is an organisation that is willing to hurt our country and its people by forcing it to only have one option of leaving (No Deal), to make an example of us, to punish us for daring to even want to leave.

Why the hell would anyone want to remain shackled to such a dictatorship ?!!

We have one chance now. Just one.

We MUST LEAVE with NO DEAL
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Gmart)
The Brexiteers tried and failed to get a deal they thought was reasonable. That's it, they had their chance but they failed to make the case good enough. Now it's just about identifying which least good way forward is now wanted.

Any case for change finished with that deal. It is a bad deal. Now we have a choice between a bad deal or remain. no deal is not an option no matter what people's egos are upset about it. If anyone thinks they have a better vision of a future outside the EU, then they should put it forward while we have membership.

This action will take away rights from not only us, but from our children.

You might not be happy with the options - give me a better one - both ways are split.

Imagine we get to the brink and then go for May's deal. Would you prefer that? Are you sure you have a majority for such a step? Are you nervous of the people turning around and questioning what the gains are?
Hi mate having listened to what you have to say I'm am struggling to understand a few points, can you please clarify.

Firstly, how have the Brexiteers (I hate that label) let the negotiations down? And even if they have why should the majority of the electorate have their wish over thrown by the incompetence of a handful of useless Tories in government?

Secondly, why should no deal be off the table whom gave the mandate for this? I find it amazing why it is you feel remain should not be removed from the table, how can you justify this? After all the people rejected remain in a referendum and furthermore elected a government on the promises of delivering Brexit, the parrot like slogan was 'no deal is better than a bad deal' therefore how given the overwhelming mandate from the British people how can no deal be removed?

You asked me for a better question, OK I'll give you one.

How would you like the government to deliver Brexit, would you like to leave the European Union with:

A- May's deal
B- No deal

They are the only viable options, unfortunately Labour, lib dems and the remainers are making meaningful negotiations with the European Union impossible by tieing the hands together of the britsh negotiators, no deal is very much an option it's what's been agreed and voted in, in the article 50 process.
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PilgrimOfTruth
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
How would you like the government to deliver Brexit, would you like to leave the European Union with:

A- May's deal
B- No deal
The answer is clearly NO DEAL !

It is realistically the ONLY way we will ever leave the EU.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
The answer is clearly NO DEAL !

It is realistically the ONLY way we will ever leave the EU.
It is my preference, I don't trust our diastorious government to deliver the vision I want outside of the EU however the referendum is bigger than labour vs tory.

However I do believe the public would pick mays deal, in that case I unlike the remainers would respect the result and honour the will of the people
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PilgrimOfTruth
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
However I do believe the public would pick mays deal, in that case I unlike the remainers would respect the result and honour the will of the people
LOL of course you would pick May's deal . . . . because it means we REMAIN and don't actually Leave !!

The public are not stupid. They can see right through the EU sham that is "May's (cough) Deal" !

Sorry but there's no dancing around it.

The majority of voting UK citizens actually want to LEAVE the EU.

Not Stay, not pretend to leave and stay, not end up half-in half-out.

Leave

Totally, completely, irrevocably

No longer under ANY control of the EU
No longer under any control of the ECJ

OUT
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
LOL of course you would pick May's deal . . . . because it means we REMAIN and don't actually Leave !!
Why don't you actually try reading what I'm typing instead of applying conversational listening so you can let your fingers run away with you.

If you did you might actually learn what my point of view is, a key point when you are trying to disagree with me. It might help gain a little more respect so your own opinion carries a little more weight also
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ByEeek
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)

We MUST LEAVE with NO DEAL
You you have a spare knife? Alas I lost mine and need something with which to stab myself repeatedly. Why oh why oh why can folks like yourself not see the absolute suicide that is "leave with no deal". You are so focused on the little stuff like making up your own laws and sovereignty, you are forgetting who pays the bills. What is the point in having sovereignty if our economy goes down the drain?
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Gmart
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
This is utter nonsense.

The EU are utterly desperate for us not to Leave. [..]

We have one chance now. Just one.

We MUST LEAVE with NO DEAL
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Hi mate having listened to what you have to say I'm am struggling to understand a few points, can you please clarify.

[...]

A- May's deal
B- No deal

They are the only viable options, unfortunately Labour, lib dems and the remainers are making meaningful negotiations with the European Union impossible by tieing the hands together of the britsh negotiators, no deal is very much an option it's what's been agreed and voted in, in the article 50 process.
It is difficult to accept that we are just not as strong as the EU I know. It's annoying having other countries with more power than us.

Our representatives were voted for by the UK system. They went and got the best deal they could. The idea that the EU had no interest in being nice to us is neither here nor there. We have a deal which is worse than membership. This does not agree with the ideas put forward by leave that hid behind a multivariate version of Brexit. Now the price is here and sitting there going on about how unfair it is that we are getting dictated to by the largest market in the world which knows how key for our economy membership is.

overwhelming mandate from the British people..? It was hardly an overwhelming two of the four constituent parts of the UK voted against it and one of those would get a border through these actions. You might not care about our Northern Irish brothers, I am yet to find a Brexiteer who cares, sees or recognises their suffering as legitimate.

There are enough questions to persuade for a further vote to make sure we are truly going with the will of the people

unfortunately Labour, lib dems and the remainers are making meaningful negotiations with the European Union impossible by tieing the hands together of the britsh negotiators, no deal is very much an option it's what's been agreed and voted in, in the article 50 process...

No deal is not a viable way forward due to the Northern Irish. If you wish to support an Irish Sea border or staying in the CU&SM then that is fine but why bother? we have the best deal already.

Despite the ravings of the Brexiteers describing the EU as evil etc - it seems to me that they have been a needed check on the power of Westminster to misbehave.

how corrupt and untenable the power mad megalomaniacs in Brussels have become...

The Brexiteers have had over two years to make their case. The failure of the deal means we need a different direction. Despite drama most people didn't even notice the EU and I would guess that given the chance to vote again the electorate would quite clearly ask what would the point be, especially of leaving the CU&SM. Hands up who reckons immigration will eventually continue no matter who is in power?

The EU is pulling the strings of our politicians...[] They have ensured that we have no options at all other than to drop out without a deal, which is the LEGAL, PERFECTLY NATURAL default position.

The default option is the status quo, not faith in the future.

"no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm."

Is this the same realm that invited the Dutch to invade us as we didn't like the religion of the next King?

I am European, so are you, the UK is a medium sized country which has a good deal to be at the top table of the biggest market in the world.

The deal is a fair deal for leaving considering the situation

Why the hell would anyone want to remain shackled to such a dictatorship ?!!

Would you like to give examples of why the EU is a dictatorship? It covers many other countries who see the advantages of cooperation. Don't get me wrong I see the flaws in the open federation model they are trying but this is what peace looks like. Everything you are upset about within the UK is down to the government there, not the EU.

Are you aware of the tax havens transparency laws coming in and their effects?

We have one chance now. Just one. We MUST LEAVE with NO DEAL

Many believe that. For me it's the other way round - but I can see why you see it that way. Your faith in Westminster and our current system is matched only by your dislike for the EU system. You've bought the con hook line and sinker. And your efforts to push us into the cold will hopefully fail. Whatever happens thoughI hope the UK will be able to find a way back to cooperation and peace. Brexiteers messed up the chance by voting against May's deal as it was the only form of Brexit possible. If she gets it through by going no deal and then pushing it through then we will be in BINO and worse off for it.

One question - are you comfortable with Northern Ireland being forced out of the UK? With the Scottish going later? I don't expect you to care, but you might note that they have a different view.
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PilgrimOfTruth
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I fear you miss the point or perhaps simply ignore it deliberately.

NO DEAL is not the ideal option, it involves some initial pain.

But what makes NO DEAL so important, so vital is that it establishes the line.

Once we go no deal, we cross over the Exit line, completely, irrevocably.

Once we do that and ONLY ONCE WE DO THAT will the EU idiots take anything seriously.

At the moment it's all just posturing, all a political sideshow, a pantomime designed to appease the masses as their democratic system gets taken away from them.

NO DEAL is the option we must take because THEN and ONLY THEN can real negotiations begin.

This isn't difficult to understand

To use the analogies I have seen on other forums . . ..

The wife who is being repeatedly assaulted and beaten up by her drunken husband gets nowhere by trying to negotiate with him and simply threatening to leave. While ever she remains under the same roof as the drunken idiot the idiot has no incentive to change his behaviours.

Thus the only true action she can take is to Leave. Completely, properly, irrevocably, even if that means initially she will struggle for money and won't have a permanent home. Only by leaving does the drunken oppressor HAVE to then come to terms with the situation and so something about it.

It is the same with the UK and the EU.

The EU has been asked to reform its ways countless times and has refused to do so.

Until and unless the UK actually DOES WALK AWAY, this situation will continue. We have to first leave with NO DEAL before anyone in the EU will come to the negotiating table properly with any intent of compromising.

It shouldn't need to be this way, but that is how things lie imho.

No Deal comes first and THEN we WILL be able to establish a decent set of trade deals and a future relationship.
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Burton Bridge
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Gmart

It's a shame you added the reply to me and the reply to Mr can't listen-own voice lover. Much of what you are saying got mixed up and became very difficult to follow.

I'm sorry Im going to reask the same questions again.
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