Only 95% of UK adults think the Holocaust occurred Watch

Good bloke
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Acsel)
That comes across as confrontational, whether you intended it or not.
Making a conclusion about your knowledge based on your statement (which proves to be correct and confirmed by you) is confrontational? A shocking confrontation.
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Acsel
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#82
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#82
(Original post by Good bloke)
Making a conclusion about your knowledge based on your statement (which proves to be correct and confirmed by you) is confrontational? A shocking confrontation.
Funnily enough yes. Because whether I've studied statistics or not was irrelevant. It's the same with your replies. A normal person would just say "Oh sorry, I didn't mean to come across as confrontational" whereas you've become defensive. But that's as much time as I'm going to waste on this matter
Last edited by Acsel; 3 weeks ago
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Kangaroo17
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Notoriety)
No one is interested in how annoyed a random TSR user is. Stop going on about it.
was i talking to you
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Notoriety
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Kangaroo17)
was i talking to you
I have 10 rep gems, kid. I can talk to whomsoever I wish, and expect not to get back chat.
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username4350740
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#85
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
I think people fail to see that some bloke going "yeah I dont think it is real" is quiiiiiiite a big step from mass extermination, I dont agree with them but making it against the law is counterproductive
No it's better to educate than to ban things.But I'm sure people didn't think we'd have another world war so soon after the first one or that thousands of Germans would be complicit in the Holocaust. Berlin at the time was one of the most progressive places for gay rights.Not long after they were in concentration camps.

The point is that we mustn't think the German citizens at that time were a different species.They weren't.They were literally the same people as us just with different language and culture and less tech.It can happen anywhere and we say never again but human nature doesn't change.And it generally doesn't start with gas chambers.First it starts with discrimination and hate.Hitler didn't exactly publicly declare his intention to exterminate Jews.At least not at first.
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Good bloke
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#86
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(Original post by Rs5644)
And it generally doesn't start with gas chambers.First it starts with discrimination and hate.Hitler didn't exactly publicly declare his intention to exterminate Jews.At least not at first.
He did actually. In Mein Kampf, published in 1925, eight years before he came to power, he bemoaned that Jews had not been gassed at the beginning of the war as he said it would have led to lower war casualties. He also said, speaking of the Jews, "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated". There were other passages that alluded to genocide too.

Mind you, most people who read Mein Kampf do fall asleep quite readily so most people probably miss it.
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old_dude
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#87
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#87
(Original post by AperfectBalance)
the holocaust was never completed
The extermination of the Jews was quite complete in the areas controlled by the Nazis.

(Original post by AperfectBalance)
generalplan ost was never completed yet resulted in 11m+ deaths and this was not soldiers
There were much more Slavs than Jews, you can't compare the number of victims like that.
(Original post by AperfectBalance)
or the occasional civillian being shot this was a systematic plan, such as in the starvation plan where crops and grain were purpously denied to slavs or where slaves were forced to do manual labour untill they died, or shipped off to death/concentration camps exactly like the jews or even just shot on the side of the road. the holocaust is NOT unique
You are confusing extermination camps with concentration camps. It was not the same. I say again, the Jews were immediately shipped to death camps, not the Slavs. The occupation of Eastern Europe was inhumane, but the Nazis did not seek to eradicate them (at least, not in the short-term).
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Kangaroo17
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Notoriety)
I have 10 rep gems, kid. I can talk to whomsoever I wish, and expect not to get back chat.
Idc. Come back when you have a better stance than calling me kid.
And i'm trying to make a valid point here? Read it or not.

If you don't care then kindly leave.
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AperfectBalance
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#89
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#89
(Original post by old_dude)
The extermination of the Jews was quite complete in the areas controlled by the Nazis.


There were much more Slavs than Jews, you can't compare the number of victims like that.



The extermination of the Jews was quite complete in the areas controlled by the Nazis.
Incorrect

There were much more Slavs than Jews, you can't compare the number of victims like that.
So one jewish life is automatically worth more than a slavic one because there are more ?

You are confusing extermination camps with concentration camps. It was not the same. I say again, the Jews were immediately shipped to death camps, not the Slavs. The occupation of Eastern Europe was inhumane, but the Nazis did not seek to eradicate them (at least, not in the short-term).
They literally had a plan to exterminate and deport 45 million slavs (deport to work in labour camps to death in siberia) so yes it 100% can
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old_dude
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#90
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
So one jewish life is automatically worth more than a slavic one because there are more ?
You said that more Slavs died than Jews ("the holocaust was never completed yet it resulted in many millions of deaths generalplan ost was never completed yet resulted in 11m+ deaths"). You need to look at the percentage of people who died in each group. 55% of the Jews living in the areas controlled by the Nazis and their allies died, against 17% for Poland--the country that suffered the most under the Nazis (and half of this number of 17% were Jewish deaths).

(Original post by AperfectBalance)
They literally had a plan to exterminate and deport 45 million slavs (deport to work in labour camps to death in siberia) so yes it 100% can
But they did not do it. Their priority was to exterminate the Jews.
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Stalin
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#91
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(Original post by old_dude)
You said that more Slavs died than Jews ("the holocaust was never completed yet it resulted in many millions of deaths generalplan ost was never completed yet resulted in 11m+ deaths"). You need to look at the percentage of people who died in each group. 55% of the Jews living in the areas controlled by the Nazis and their allies died, against 17% for Poland--the country that suffered the most under the Nazis (and half of this number of 17% were Jewish deaths).


But they did not do it. Their priority was to exterminate the Jews.
Approximately 16 million Soviet civilians died: 10 million due to military activity and crimes against humanity; and 6 million due to war-related famine and disease.

The USSR had a Jewish population of 2.8 million in 1939. The lowest estimate of Soviet Jews killed is 700,000; the highest is 1.1 million.

If we compare and contrast the roughly 15.3 - 14.9 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians that killed with the widely accepted 6 million European Jews that were killed, his point that "more Slavs died than Jews" is unquestionable; and this is without taking into account the 3 million non-Jewish Polish civilians, the 140,000 - 500,000 Soviet POWs, the 10.6 million Soviet military personnel, or the 1 - 1.5 million Yugoslavs that were killed.

Regarding your point that "they did not do it", indeed, the Nazis did not exterminate every single Slav, however, likewise, they did not exterminate every single Jew in Europe. The fact that they were unable to exterminate the Slavs does not detract from the fact that the Nazis considered the Slavs as sub-humans, and, had Germany defeated the USSR, the Slavs would have received the same treatement as the Jews: enslavement and extermination albeit over a prolonged period of time.

Also, the priority of the Nazis was not to exterminate the Jews, it was to defeat the Soviet Union and thus end the war on two fronts; and with the gargantuan resources Germany would have at its disposal, force Britain into suing for peace or face inevitable conquest. Once that had been achieved, extermination or deportation to Madagascar, which was Heinrich's first plan, would have occurred.
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TheMcSame
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#92
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#92
(Original post by old_dude)
You're confusing extermination camps with concentration camps.

The Slavs were not supposed to be exterminated, only to be treated as slaves. For this reason, they were not sent to death camps like the Jews (where they were in majority). My point still stand.
Even if I'm confusing the two, your point doesn't stand at all.

Your argument is literally "Jews matter more because they were targeted". The Poles were targeted. The entire Slavic race was targeted and they even have written plans for the mass murder of most Slavic peoples. 9-11M Slavs were killed. At the very least that's 50% more Slavs killed than Jews.
Generalplan Ost has had several mentions already... Do you know what the plan called for?
The elimination of:
50-60% of Russians (Slavic)
almost 50% of Estonians
50% of Latvians
50% of Czechs (Slavic)
65% of Ukrainians (Slavic)
75% of Belarusians (Slavic)
80-85% of Poles (Slavic)
85% of Lithuanians
100% of Latgalians


I'll tell you exactly why we focus on the Jews and hear nothing of the victimised Slavs. Propaganda. 6.3M - 7.5M of Slavics killed were Soviets. Why would the West be sympathetic to the loss of people from the evil communist countries? I guarantee that if relations between the Soviets and the West had been much better, we'd be hearing about the Slavs just as much, if not more, than the Jews.

Oh but please, continue to tell me how only the Jews were targeted...

(Original post by old_dude)
Their priority was to exterminate the Jews.
Their priority was to exterminate 'inferior races'. Jews were just one of those races.
Last edited by TheMcSame; 3 weeks ago
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ZombieTheWolf
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Dandaman1)
I think we can live with 95%.

I also agree with some of the above posts. The Holocaust gets huge recognition despite contributing a small portion of the civilian WW2 deaths, and remembrance is almost entirely focused on Jews despite them being about half of the Holocaust victims.

Yes, the Holocaust was horrible. It was the intentional attempted eradication of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies and political prisoners. But the Soviets murdered, starved to death and committed genocide against millions more people in the name of their regime than Hitler ever did. But for some reason it's OK to feature a hammer and sickle on things but not a Swastika. I mean, the Soviets were also our enemies for decades. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
It's mad how no one really cares about the hammer and the sickle flag (in my age bracket 18-16). I think it should be hated equally like the swastika.
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ZombieTheWolf
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#94
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#94
(Original post by TheMcSame)
Their priority was to exterminate 'inferior races'. Jews were just one of those races.
That is true, however Jews were sought after. Were they not segregated in Ghettos? Poles could still roam around Warsaw, if they were not Jewish or hiding Jews. They were still all horribly treated, and Poles were definitely portrayed as inferior aliens (even tried to be framed for the invasion of Poland).


Also stupid question, but when you compare the numbers between slavs and jews killed, does that mean none of the slavs held the Jewish faith?
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Palmyra
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(Original post by Notnek)
The Holocaust of Jews is remembered so much because it was an attempt to exterminate a whole group of people, based solely on the religion that they happened to be born into.
Erm, no.
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TheMcSame
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(Original post by ZombieTheWolf)
That is true, however Jews were sought after. Were they not segregated in Ghettos? Poles could still roam around Warsaw, if they were not Jewish or hiding Jews. They were still all horribly treated, and Poles were definitely portrayed as inferior aliens (even tried to be framed for the invasion of Poland).


Also stupid question, but when you compare the numbers between slavs and Jews killed, does that mean none of the slavs held the Jewish faith?
Jews were sought after, but they were one group amongst many that were targeted during The Holocaust, which included Gay Men, Soviet Citizens and Jehova's Witnesses, just to name a few.

You make a good point with that question actually. The catch is that you assume Jew refers to Jewish followers. The thing about Jew is that it's a bit of a funny one. It can be applied as an ethnic label as well as a religious one. I'm not particularly sure why that's the case, but there you go. When you consider Nazi propaganda used the Jewish nose, a racial stereotype, I think it's fair to assume we're talking about ethnic Jews as opposed to follows of Judaism, after all, you can lie about your religion, lying about ethnicity is a bit harder, especially if you have defining features of a certain ethnicity. Although the two, obviously, aren't completely disconnected. The statistics also largely seem to differentiate ethnic Jewish and ethnic Slavic deaths. It'd get a bit fuzzy if you had an Ethnic Slav who followed Judaism, but as I mentioned, the Nazis seemed to be more focused on ethnic Jews than religious Jews, though again, the two aren't completely disconnected.
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Jebedee
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(Original post by Rs5644)
Yes and how much harm did those beliefs cause? Religious beliefs have been responsible for untold harm over the generations.Even the holocaust actually.Afterall it was the Jews who crucified the messiah.

Holocaust denial is a problem because if you don't learn from the mistakes of the past then you are doomed to repeat it.Do you think it started with the gas chambers? It didnt.It starts with words and demonization of the "other".
(Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
We don’t learn history simply because of its fascinating nature, we learn it to make sure that the same mistakes don’t happen again. If a significant proportion of the population start denying that certain events even exist, this starts to become dangerous. I’m all for freedom of belief but if someone starts stating that the sky is polka dotted purple in the face of evidence saying otherwise, then that person will be regarded as an idiot, like others of similar intelligence.

Also it’s just plain moronic and disrespectful to the survivors and family members of survivors of the holocaust who must be tearing their hair out at the sheer idiocy.
While I do agree with you in some ways, religion is still state sponsored So anything you propose which you won't apply to all religion is hypocritical.
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old_dude
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#98
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(Original post by TheMcSame)
Even if I'm confusing the two, your point doesn't stand at all.

Your argument is literally "Jews matter more because they were targeted". The Poles were targeted. The entire Slavic race was targeted and they even have written plans for the mass murder of most Slavic peoples.
Not with the same intensity. The Nazis had a hierarchy of races, in which the Jews were at the bottom, not the Slavs.

(Original post by TheMcSame)
9-11M Slavs were killed. At the very least that's 50% more Slavs killed than Jews.
Generalplan Ost has had several mentions already... Do you know what the plan called for?
The elimination of:
50-60% of Russians (Slavic)
almost 50% of Estonians
50% of Latvians
50% of Czechs (Slavic)
65% of Ukrainians (Slavic)
75% of Belarusians (Slavic)
80-85% of Poles (Slavic)
85% of Lithuanians
100% of Latgalians
Haven't you seen my post above? More Slavs were killed than the Jews, but they were many times more numerous than the Jews. You have to look at the percentage of the population killed. 55% of the Jews living in the areas controlled by the Nazis and their allies died, against about 10% of the Slavs, and this figure includes combatants, while the Jews had no army.

Moreover, several Slavic countries were allied to Germany: Slovakia, Croatia and Bulgaria, so "The entire Slavic race" was NOT targeted.

(Original post by TheMcSame)
I'll tell you exactly why we focus on the Jews and hear nothing of the victimised Slavs. Propaganda. 6.3M - 7.5M of Slavics killed were Soviets. Why would the West be sympathetic to the loss of people from the evil communist countries? I guarantee that if relations between the Soviets and the West had been much better, we'd be hearing about the Slavs just as much, if not more, than the Jews.

Oh but please, continue to tell me how only the Jews were targeted...


Their priority was to exterminate 'inferior races'. Jews were just one of those races.
The Jews were at the bottom of the inferior races (alongside the Romani).

We do not feel too sympathetic to the loss of Soviet lives, because the Soviets themselves committed a number of atrocities during WW2, including several massacres on their fellow Slavs, and the deportations of many peoples to Siberia (not even mentioning the Ukrainian genocide).
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TheMcSame
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(Original post by old_dude)
Not with the same intensity. The Nazis had a hierarchy of races, in which the Jews were at the bottom, not the Slavs.
Right, so because Jews were at the bottom, everyone else's deaths are meaningless? This doesn't change the fact that many other groups of people were targeted.

Haven't you seen my post above? More Slavs were killed than the Jews, but they were many times more numerous than the Jews. You have to look at the percentage of the population killed. 55% of the Jews living in the areas controlled by the Nazis and their allies died, against about 10% of the Slavs, and this figure includes combatants, while the Jews had no army.
Again, does this suddenly mean that everyone else's deaths are meaningless? No? My point still stands then.

Moreover, several Slavic countries were allied to Germany: Slovakia, Croatia and Bulgaria, so "The entire Slavic race" was NOT targeted.
Read up a bit of history...
Slovakia was invaded in early 1939. They were allied to Germany because they were occupied by Germany before the war.
Croatia was invaded in 1941 during the invasion of Yugoslavia. They didn't declare they were pro-Axis until the Germans stepped in.

Bulgaria was the only one of the three that seemed to willingly ally with the Axis without being 'convinced' by the Germans.

Besides, just because they were allied to Germany doesn't mean Germany didn't have plans for them... After all, the USSR was allied with Germany until Germany started invading in 1941.


We do not feel too sympathetic to the loss of Soviet lives, because the Soviets themselves committed a number of atrocities during WW2, including several massacres on their fellow Slavs, and the deportations of many peoples to Siberia (not even mentioning the Ukrainian genocide).
Doesn't change the importance of deaths. You'd struggle to find many countries which having committed their fair share of atrocities...
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Ghostmaster475
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This is an interesting question to consider when looking at the history of the 20th century, I posed it to my lecturer the other day and she came out with this:

Whilst its true that there are other instances where there were a lot of more people being killed ie: WWII, Stalinist Russia, Mao's China etc. Nazi Germany is one of the first if not THE first example of an entire state applying focused institutional racism towards a specific target (in this case, the Jews) and acting on it. This is (according to her) why there is a great focus made by historians studying the 20th century on events like the Holocaust and the general persecution of the Jews.

Although, she did also tell me that historians have recently started turning attention towards massacres that haven't paid enough attention such as those in the communist states.
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