Holocaust Memorial Day Watch

ewarner2000
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#41
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#41
(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Are we not going to remember the non jewish people that died in the holocaust too?

What? the coverage of jewish deaths in the holocaust is very well covered and I think it is also very important to remember that there were millions of non jews killed during the holocaust and if you add the killing of non combatant slavic people in their drive eastward then the death toll looks even more disgusting.
it is important to remember everyone but especially with the Jewish population due to rising antisemitism in politics, media and society as well as general hate and discrimination
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Fullofsurprises
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#42
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
There was no Nazi plan as such for genocide against the Slavic peoples at that time
Blatantly false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

"the plan for Poland was drawn up at the end of November 1939 and is probably responsible for much of the World War II expulsion of Poles by Germany (first to colonial district of the General Government and, from 1942 also to Polenlager).[29] After the war, under the "Big Plan", Generalplan Ost foresaw the removal of 45 million non-Germanizable people from Central and Eastern Europe, of whom 31 million were "racially undesirable", 100% of Jews, Poles (85%), Lithuanians (85%) [11][24], Belorussians (75%) and Ukrainians (65%), to West Siberia,[15] and about 14 million were to remain, but were to be treated as slaves."

Thankfully this plan was never put into full effect but... "The plan was partially realized during the war, resulting directly and indirectly in the death of 9.4 to 11.4 million ethnic Slavs by starvation, disease, execution or extermination through labor"
The problem is that the argument that the holocaust included Nazi atrocities in the Soviet and E. European territories against Slavs is frequently used by the far right to imply that there is some sort of conspiracy to 'exaggerate' the mass murder or suffering of the Jews, as part of a covert holocaust denial campaign. Basically the outright approach to holocaust denial has been so completely disproven and ridiculed that the far right have moved to a more sophisticated operation of rubbishing Jewish involvement and making it sound as if the Jews are just complaining, or as if somehow the Holocaust memorial movement is a Jewish conspiracy. This kind of anti-semitic politics goes down particularly well in Russia and E. Europe, where they have long anti-semitic traditions but it was largely fabricated in the US and German alt-right.

On the basic facts, the Nazis may have had long term goals to destroy the Slavic peoples but they were not able to put them into effect with the same genocidal fervour and ambition with which they exterminated Jewish people. Many of the deaths in Russia were forced starvations of captured prisoners and civilians living in conquered areas for example, rather than actual mass murder, although that is not to in any way denigrate their suffering or apologise for Nazi crimes against Slavs. Simply put, the holocaust happened and it mainly concerned the Jews. The Nazis also killed millions of other people in war, by starvation and by random killing.
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the bear
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#43
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#43
(Original post by ewarner2000)
THANK YOU for creating this post! It is truly important we remember those who were impacted by such atrocities so they don't happen again. This is the only post I've seen on holocaust memorial day this year across social media😥 and apart from one news article nothing...
there are plenty of good posts on twitter:

https://twitter.com/hashtag/holocaus...&vertical=news
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AperfectBalance
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#44
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#44
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The problem is that the argument that the holocaust included Nazi atrocities in the Soviet and E. European territories against Slavs is frequently used by the far right to imply that there is some sort of conspiracy to 'exaggerate' the mass murder or suffering of the Jews, as part of a covert holocaust denial campaign. Basically the outright approach to holocaust denial has been so completely disproven and ridiculed that the far right have moved to a more sophisticated operation of rubbishing Jewish involvement and making it sound as if the Jews are just complaining, or as if somehow the Holocaust memorial movement is a Jewish conspiracy. This kind of anti-semitic politics goes down particularly well in Russia and E. Europe, where they have long anti-semitic traditions but it was largely fabricated in the US and German alt-right.

On the basic facts, the Nazis may have had long term goals to destroy the Slavic peoples but they were not able to put them into effect with the same genocidal fervour and ambition with which they exterminated Jewish people. Many of the deaths in Russia were forced starvations of captured prisoners and civilians living in conquered areas for example, rather than actual mass murder, although that is not to in any way denigrate their suffering or apologise for Nazi crimes against Slavs. Simply put, the holocaust happened and it mainly concerned the Jews. The Nazis also killed millions of other people in war, by starvation and by random killing.
Ok well you first paragraph isnt really an argument as the holocaust is described thusly "Holocaust victims were people who were targeted by the government of Nazi Germany for various discriminatory practices due to their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, or sexual orientation. These institutionalized practices" So they fit.

On the basic facts, the Nazis may have had long term goals to destroy the Slavic peoples but they were not able to put them into effect with the same genocidal fervour and ambition with which they exterminated Jewish people.


Lets pretend that you are correct here, does the life of a jewish man mean more than that of a slav? does it matter how much "fevour and ambition" were put into each murder as long as each one of them was for the same express reason of 'racial purity'


Let me just get a few quotes that might show you that the Germans did indeed do so with the same fevour as they did with jews

"Between 1941 and 1945, approximately three million Ukrainian and other gentiles were killed as part of Nazi extermination policies in present-day Ukraine"

"Estimates of the Romani death toll in World War II range from 220,000 to 1,500,000"

"civilian deaths in the occupied USSR, including Jews, at the hands of the Germans totaled 13.7 million dead (20 percent of the population of 68 million). The figure includes 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals, 2.2 million deaths of persons deported to Germany as forced labour, and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths. An estimated three million people also died of starvation in unoccupied territory."


"Hundreds of thousands of Roman Catholic and Orthodox Poles were sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau and other concentration camps, and the intelligentsia were the first targets of the Einsatzgruppen death squads"



"Many of the deaths in Russia were forced starvations of captured prisoners and civilians living in conquered areas for example, rather than actual mass murder,"
Good to hear that these people were 'only' forcefully starved, shot and put into ditches tortured worked to death because you know doing that on a mass scale apparently isnt "actual mass murder"
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04MR17
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#45
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(Original post by the bear)
and it starts
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the user's subsequent comments, their first post I don't disagree with. This is a human tragedy, from multiple ethnic and religious groups.

The Roma Gypsies faced the worst treatment imaginable, and disabled people who arrived at Death camps were exterminated immediately, rather than being set to work like many prisoners were.







I have been to visit these camps. It is hard to describe the atmosphere there. It is a place of stillness, as though time had frozen. When allied forces arrived to Liberate Auschwitz-Birkenau (the anniversary of which is today) the shock from their discovery is a similar shock to those experienced by visitors today. It does not feel like a place of Death, but a place where life was removed, taken by force away from those who didn't deserve this treatment but had no choice. Death I see as a process of ending, the Holocaust was not this; the Holocaust was a systematic removal of life - the people who suffered shall not have their stories ended. The lessons from survivors shall forever be told for this horrific act must not be replicated.

It should also be noted that on this day the victims of all genocides are remembered: including the ongoing conflict and genocide in South Sudan; including atrocities in Cambodia during the 1970s and 1980s; including the events in Bosnia during the early 1990s; including the genocide in Rwanda in the 1990s. We say "never again" but across the world these events continue to happen. Holocaust Memorial Day serves as a reminder to the human race to stop this madness, this killing is madness and it must end.
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04MR17
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#46
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Ok well you first paragraph isnt really an argument as the holocaust is described thusly "Holocaust victims were people who were targeted by the government of Nazi Germany for various discriminatory practices due to their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, or sexual orientation. These institutionalized practices" So they fit.

On the basic facts, the Nazis may have had long term goals to destroy the Slavic peoples but they were not able to put them into effect with the same genocidal fervour and ambition with which they exterminated Jewish people.


Lets pretend that you are correct here, does the life of a jewish man mean more than that of a slav? does it matter how much "fevour and ambition" were put into each murder as long as each one of them was for the same express reason of 'racial purity'


Let me just get a few quotes that might show you that the Germans did indeed do so with the same fevour as they did with jews

"Between 1941 and 1945, approximately three million Ukrainian and other gentiles were killed as part of Nazi extermination policies in present-day Ukraine"

"Estimates of the Romani death toll in World War II range from 220,000 to 1,500,000"

"civilian deaths in the occupied USSR, including Jews, at the hands of the Germans totaled 13.7 million dead (20 percent of the population of 68 million). The figure includes 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals, 2.2 million deaths of persons deported to Germany as forced labour, and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths. An estimated three million people also died of starvation in unoccupied territory."


"Hundreds of thousands of Roman Catholic and Orthodox Poles were sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau and other concentration camps, and the intelligentsia were the first targets of the Einsatzgruppen death squads"


"Many of the deaths in Russia were forced starvations of captured prisoners and civilians living in conquered areas for example, rather than actual mass murder,"
Good to hear that these people were 'only' forcefully starved, shot and put into ditches tortured worked to death because you know doing that on a mass scale apparently isnt "actual mass murder"
Persecution ought not to be a subject of debate on this day. If you wish to pursue nuance in your opinions and present them to others then choose another time for this, it's an important field of historical study so that events of this nature are not repeated: but today is for reflection and remembrance, not debate.
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04MR17
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#47
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#47
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Who are the 5 million you are talking about?
- Roma Gypsies
- Political Prisoners & Journalists
- Disabled People
- Homosexuals
- Jehovah's Witnesses (thank you Notnek)

They wore symbols other than stars as described in this poster:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ion****ern.jpg

(For the record, I'm adding info, not trying to enter a point into the argument)
Last edited by 04MR17; 3 weeks ago
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Notnek
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#48
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the user's subsequent comments, their first post I don't disagree with. This is a human tragedy, from multiple ethnic and religious groups.

The Roma Gypsies faced the worst treatment imaginable, and disabled people who arrived at Death camps were exterminated immediately, rather than being set to work like many prisoners were.
I agree with this. The fate of the Roma Gypsies in WW2 directly parallels that of the Jews. The number of deaths was much lower but it was still a significant percentage of the population.

I do find it sad though that on this day of rememberance, the majority of posts on TSR are debates about who we should remember more. There can be a fine line between some of these posts and anti-semitic posts that are frequent on this site.
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AperfectBalance
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#49
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Persecution ought not to be a subject of debate on this day. If you wish to pursue nuance in your opinions and present them to others then choose another time for this, it's an important field of historical study so that events of this nature are not repeated: but today is for reflection and remembrance, not debate.
I am not the one trying to pursue nuance, I am the one complaining about the abhorrent comments from Fullofsurprises who has tried to downplay the millions of non jewish deaths yet they fail to see the unimaginable cruelty of the Nazis to many non jewish minorities, I have many times stated that we need to remember these too but repeatedly these people use unimagineable amounts of mental gymnastics to get out of this simple facr
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Decahedron
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#50
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#50
(Original post by 04MR17)
Persecution ought not to be a subject of debate on this day. If you wish to pursue nuance in your opinions and present them to others then choose another time for this, it's an important field of historical study so that events of this nature are not repeated: but today is for reflection and remembrance, not debate.
What better way to reflect and remember is there than delving into the history.
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04MR17
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#51
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#51
(Original post by Notnek)
I agree with this. The fate of the Roma Gypsies in WW2 directly parallels that of the Jews. The number of deaths was much lower but it was still a significant percentage of the population.

I do find it sad though that on this day of rememberance, the majority of posts on TSR are debates about who we should remember more. There can be a fine line between some of these posts and anti-semitic posts that are frequent on this site.
It's not just about the numbers either (ironic me telling this to you) but in the Death camps Roma Gypsies were separated into their own enclosed area where they would face often more brutal treatment than other inmates.

I also find it sad, and it's not even about being offensive to the sections of populations that are being discussed, it's about those who's lives were taken, and the survivors who have devoted their life and energy to Holocaust education.

(Original post by Notnek)
Also Jehovah's Witnesses. It's important to note that it was only really the Jews and Roma Gypsies that were systematically murdered by the regime, although many of the other prisoners did die from starvation and disease etc.
Indeed.:sadnod: I have made this addition to the above list.

Disabled people were also exterminated immediately upon arrival to death camps, though it is difficult with a demographic of this nature to systematically assess and identify disabled people, hence I would have probably avoided slaughter, despite having a physical and externally visible impairment: the fact is it simply isn't very noticeable.

(Original post by AperfectBalance)
I am not the one trying to pursue nuance, I am the one complaining about the abhorrent comments from Fullofsurprises who has tried to downplay the millions of non jewish deaths yet they fail to see the unimaginable cruelty of the Nazis to many non jewish minorities, I have many times stated that we need to remember these too but repeatedly these people use unimagineable amounts of mental gymnastics to get out of this simple facr
Do not target your animosity towards others, that is not what this day is for. Nor any other day for that matter. Pursuing nuance isn't a bad thing, I celebrate it: but now is not the time.

(Original post by Decahedron)
What better way to reflect and remember is there than delving into the history.
Delving can be done without arguing.
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Fullofsurprises
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#52
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
I am not the one trying to pursue nuance, I am the one complaining about the abhorrent comments from Fullofsurprises who has tried to downplay the millions of non jewish deaths yet they fail to see the unimaginable cruelty of the Nazis to many non jewish minorities, I have many times stated that we need to remember these too but repeatedly these people use unimagineable amounts of mental gymnastics to get out of this simple facr
The trouble, these exact same arguments are put forward by the new far right, seeking to distort the Holocaust and demean Jewish people by suggesting that somehow they have sought to lie about it and exaggerate it. This smear is extremely widespread, so you will forgive me for not being concerned that it might be spread here under the guise of factual comparison with the other Nazi death campaigns.
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ChaoticButterfly
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#53
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Simply put, the holocaust happened and it mainly concerned the Jews. The Nazis also killed millions of other people in war, by starvation and by random killing.
The Jews were the morority victims of the holocaust but they were not the only ones. To attribute the other millions of none jews who were exterminated and/or placed into camps or displaced to simple "war dead" is a kind of holocaust denial in and of itself. For example the treatment of roma (second largest group death toll) by the Nazis went largely ignored until the 1980s. The acceptable prejudice against roma is insane. It is also something that is still rearing its ugly head.
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AperfectBalance
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#54
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The trouble, these exact same arguments are put forward by the new far right, seeking to distort the Holocaust and demean Jewish people by suggesting that somehow they have sought to lie about it and exaggerate it. This smear is extremely widespread, so you will forgive me for not being concerned that it might be spread here under the guise of factual comparison with the other Nazi death campaigns.
Once again this isnt an argument, facts are being spread under the guise of being facts
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
The Jews were the morority victims of the holocaust but they were not the only ones. To attribute the other millions of none jews who were exterminated and/or placed into camps or displaced to simple "war dead" is a kind of holocaust denial in and of itself. For example the treatment of roma (second largest group death toll) by the Nazis went largely ignored until the 1980s. The acceptable prejudice against roma is insane. It is also something that is still rearing its ugly head.
I specifically mentioned the Roma and the other groups targeted for extermination in the Holocaust in an earlier thread.

Clearly many, many peoples suffered horribly at Nazi hands. I also think the Jews do rightly deserve a special day to remember the particular massively organised and systematic attempt at genocide that was partially successfully launched against them. That is in no way to detract from the massive suffering of others. Even if they don't deserve that and the HMD is to remember all victims of Nazism, then we shouldn't be permitting the far right to take over the debate and join in the sneaky argument that it's all just the Jews complaining and for all we know, even their fault - exactly what Himmler would say were he still around.
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the bear
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#56
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#56
here is the Auschwitz Album

https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhi...tz/arrival.asp

https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhi.../selection.asp

https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhi...lave-labor.asp

https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhi...lave-labor.asp

https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhi...itz/kanada.asp

https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhi...st-moments.asp

truly terrible.
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Fullofsurprises
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#57
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Once again this isnt an argument, facts are being spread under the guise of being facts
Perhaps casual visitors to this thread would not be as used to your posts as we are and your relentless pushing of far right ideological positions thinly dressed up as factual pseudo-reasoning.
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the bear
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#58
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#58
this photograph is unbearably sad

https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhi...ts/268_119.jpg

the grandmother helps the little ones down the path to the gas chambers.


i cannot post any more.
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Decahedron
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#59
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Perhaps casual visitors to this thread would not be as used to your posts as we are and your relentless pushing of far right ideological positions thinly dressed up as factual pseudo-reasoning.
You just seem to want to label anyone that challenges you as far right, you tried to do it to me earlier.

The only person spreading falsehoods in this thread is you and your denial of history.
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Decahedron
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#60
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#60
(Original post by Notnek)
I do find it sad though that on this day of rememberance, the majority of posts on TSR are debates about who we should remember more.
It was never about who should be remembered more, it was about remembering everyone.
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