Holocaust Memorial Day Watch

ChaoticButterfly
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I specifically mentioned the Roma and the other groups targeted for extermination in the Holocaust in an earlier thread.

Clearly many, many peoples suffered horribly at Nazi hands. I also think the Jews do rightly deserve a special day to remember the particular massively organised and systematic attempt at genocide that was partially successfully launched against them. That is in no way to detract from the massive suffering of others. Even if they don't deserve that and the HMD is to remember all victims of Nazism, then we shouldn't be permitting the far right to take over the debate and join in the sneaky argument that it's all just the Jews complaining and for all we know, even their fault - exactly what Himmler would say were he still around.

I wasn't quoting that thread though. I was responding to what you said in your post I quoted.

I'm all for rubbing poeple's noses in the consequences of racism. But the lack of focusing on none jewish groups is harming people. I don't think I have ever met someone that when it came up in conversation didn't have something racist to say about roma and gypsies. That is nowhere near true when talking about jewish poeple (and I have experienced antisemitism personally directed at me on a semi regular basis during high school, so it isn't as if that is a low bar to top).

Which is why I bring the roma up as a case in point. The fact no seriouse scholarly work was done on the roma in the holocust until the 1980s is crazy. It is way way more acceptable to say things about "travelers" than pretty much any otehr group of poeple. This has got to be atleast partly to do with the ersasure or perhaps just ignorance of the experience of roma in the holocaust. I don't see why it has to be a zero sum game. it isn't as if recognising the treatment of other groups is going to take away the horrors experienced by the jewish community in europe. You can have a specific jewish focused day if you like, which is most of the time anyway, but I don't see why others should not also be specifically remembered on actual holocaust remorial day.
Last edited by ChaoticButterfly; 3 weeks ago
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Kangaroo17
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#62
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#62
For all those who suffered, i'm very sorry.
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Kangaroo17
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#63
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#63
But i hope other massacres get more attention, its sad to think they are being ignored when they are related to europe.
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ChaoticButterfly
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Kangaroo17)
For all those who suffered, i'm very sorry.
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I am also pro rubbing poeple's noses in the crimes of colonialism.

it isn't one or the other.
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Kangaroo17
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#65
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#65
(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
I am also pro rubbing poeple's noses in the crimes of colonialism.

it isn't one or the other.
Sorry im sleepy
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Palmyra
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The genocide was directed primarily at Jews. The Nazi extermination machinery of the death camps was aimed at Jews. It also encompassed along the way some other groups such as homosexuals and gypsies.

The other killings are evil examples of the random killing and war-linked and conquest-linked extreme murderousness.
Yikes.
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Fullofsurprises
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Palmyra)
Yikes.
It's correct to say that the Jews were the initial prime targets of Nazi extermination plans and that other groups, such as communists and homosexuals were additions - they were included almost as an afterthought by parts of the SS killing machine once the death camp machinery was available. The first targets for mass killing were the disabled, physically and mentally, who have not been mentioned yet in the discussion.

I did not mean to infer that the mass killings that took place in Russia, Ukraine, etc, were 'random', when I used that word I was thinking of the tendency of both Wermacht and SS forces to engage in the arbitrary murder of local civilians in all areas, in addition to the formalised SS extermination machinery. Of course there were massive levels of killing in all parts of the colonised E. European and Russian conquered territories, directed at all sorts of defenceless people.
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Fullofsurprises
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#68
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
I am also pro rubbing poeple's noses in the crimes of colonialism.

it isn't one or the other.
The problem is that there isn't a World Holocausts Day plural - we should also take note of other holocausts like the Turkish genocide attempt directed at the Armenians and more recent ones. And of course we could go further back in history.

My earlier point was that, whilst completely valid, these wider analyses are also seized on by the far right to 'muddy the waters' about the Nazi holocaust and systematically attempt to diminish the mass assault on the Jews perpetrated by the mass murder system in a planned and carried out campaign. The attempt is to portray the Jews as 'just one of many' and therefore to lead on to portray them as just moaning or as raising unreasonable points - precisely what the Nazis themselves would be saying now if they had won.
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04MR17
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The problem is that there isn't a World Holocausts Day plural - we should also take note of other holocausts like the Turkish genocide attempt directed at the Armenians and more recent ones. And of course we could go further back in history.
Holocaust Memorial Trust remembers 6 genocides on Holocaust Memorial day, as I detailed in a post earlier. The Hplocaust may have been the largest of these tragedies, but it isn't the only one recognised.
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Fullofsurprises
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#70
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#70
(Original post by 04MR17)
Holocaust Memorial Trust remembers 6 genocides on Holocaust Memorial day, as I detailed in a post earlier. The Hplocaust may have been the largest of these tragedies, but it isn't the only one recognised.
Yes, it doesn't cover the Armenian genocide, which is why I mentioned that, nor others like the attempts by the Soviets under Lenin and Stalin to eliminate entire peoples, but they do indeed acknowledge the Nazi persecutions (and they call them that) which they distinguish from the extermination of the Jews, still referred to as The Holocaust.
https://www.hmd.org.uk/what-is-holocaust-memorial-day/
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AperfectBalance
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Perhaps casual visitors to this thread would not be as used to your posts as we are and your relentless pushing of far right ideological positions thinly dressed up as factual pseudo-reasoning.
I mean you are the one that has been making factual errors such as claiming the Germans had no plan to eradicate slavs/non jews and that it just so happened they killed them because they were bloodthirsty or something, you are the one here who is wholly in the wrong
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AperfectBalance
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#72
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It's correct to say that the Jews were the initial prime targets of Nazi extermination plans and that other groups, such as communists and homosexuals were additions - they were included almost as an afterthought by parts of the SS killing machine once the death camp machinery was available. The first targets for mass killing were the disabled, physically and mentally, who have not been mentioned yet in the discussion.

I did not mean to infer that the mass killings that took place in Russia, Ukraine, etc, were 'random', when I used that word I was thinking of the tendency of both Wermacht and SS forces to engage in the arbitrary murder of local civilians in all areas, in addition to the formalised SS extermination machinery. Of course there were massive levels of killing in all parts of the colonised E. European and Russian conquered territories, directed at all sorts of defenceless people.

when I used that word I was thinking of the tendency of both Wermacht and SS forces to engage in the arbitrary murder of local civilians in all areas
The murder of Slavs was just as systematic as the murder of the jews Generalplan Ost called for and implimented (although not on the scale they wanted 45m+) the systematic starvation, overworking (to death) and planned extermination of millions and millions of slavs, so it certainly can be distinguished from the inevitable civilian casualties that happen in any war
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04MR17
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Yes, it doesn't cover the Armenian genocide, which is why I mentioned that, nor others like the attempts by the Soviets under Lenin and Stalin to eliminate entire peoples, but they do indeed acknowledge the Nazi persecutions (and they call them that) which they distinguish from the extermination of the Jews, still referred to as The Holocaust.
https://www.hmd.org.uk/what-is-holocaust-memorial-day/
Precisely, so it's not actually possible to have a Holocausts Memorial Day plural, because there is only 1 Holocaust. However, multiple genocides are officially recognised by this day. Perhaps there are more that ought to be included, but that's a discussion for another time.
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