Police investigate UK man for his thinking Watch

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yudothis
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#81
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#81
(Original post by generallee)
This the issue that propelled Jordan Peterson to global internet super stardom. He refused to bow to the Trans lobby's lock on the Canadian legal sytem and took a stand for free speech. The rest is history.

This guy is a brave man and should be applauded and supported. This kind of thing is obviously nonsense and brings the police into disrepute. All of us should exercise our free speech, and if it is treated as a criminal offence, not back down.

It isn't about bigotry, or even a lack of kindness to those mixed up people who think they are women or men, but don't have the requisite penis or vagina. It is about naked power by the cultural marxists. They want to force their ideological view, that gender is a social construct, upon the rest of society, by making it illegal to deny it. The police are just their pawns.
The police are indoctrinated by nasty lobby groups like Mermaids - google their material that they teach to police and other insitutions, including schools. It is sickening propaganda that a) leads to child abuse and b) suppression of free speech.
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yudothis
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(Original post by Dez)
There's a difference between posting opinions and making personal attacks against other people for their beliefs. When somebody is straying towards the latter of those two, preventative action is definitely worth considering. Especially since trans people are far more likely than cis people to be victims of assault.

If somebody is posting increasingly hateful rhetoric online, how long before they decide enough's enough and go out and physically attack/abuse someone? Clearly the guy in the article has already intimidated at least one person enough for them to feel the need to get the police involved. Prevention of crime is more important than hurting somebody's feelings by calling out their BS bigotry, even if that person is entirely innocent.

All that said, I'm not sure this sort of thing should really be a police job. Before Tory austerity I'd imagine it would have been a social worker giving this guy a ring instead of a police officer. But now there's very little support available, and it's pretty clear that the UK government really couldn't care less.
Again, who made you the moral apostle? Who decides what is "hateful"? The loud bunch of SJWs that cry oppression 24/7?
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yudothis
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#83
(Original post by Dez)
It was one of about 30 tweets they highlighted as I understand it.


I'm always open to credible and scientific evidence about this sort of thing, there is a ton of things we don't know about when it comes to being trans. But when it comes to the anti-scientific rhetoric that the anti-trans lot constantly come out with, there is simply no point in wasting my time engaging with such tripe. Just the same as I wouldn't bother reading any arguments about why the Earth is flat or the moon landings were faked.
You're joking, the entire trans agenda is like flat earth and you're saying people who reject gender ideology are like flat earthers? And "I'm open to scientific evidence".

The projection could not be more real.
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yudothis
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#84
(Original post by Dez)
Such activists who "pushed hormones down their throats" as you put it are obviously the extreme minority. More level-headed individuals (i.e. doctors) tend to be the ones to prescribe hormone medication in the majority of cases.
You are lying. All major lobby groups demand hormone treatment earlier and earlier and at a whim. This view is not a minority. Doctors are afraid to say no. You are so deluded it's frightening.
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generallee
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(Original post by yudothis)
You mean the police intimidating someone for an opinion is fine according to you? Of course only dressed as "they were looking out for him".

Stasi, Gestapo, China, just some things that come to mind in response to your viewpoint.

The modern left is fascist af.
Quite. The modern left is completely authoritarian and fascist. this episode is literally an Orwellian "thought crime." Straight out of 1984.

What worries me is that this policemen (and his superiors) aren't ashamed of the way they treated this guy. It says everything about the direction the British police are heading.
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DSilva
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#86
(Original post by generallee)
Quite. The modern left is completely authoritarian and fascist. this episode is literally an Orwellian "thought crime." Straight out of 1984.

What worries me is that this policemen (and his superiors) aren't ashamed of the way they treated this guy. It says everything about the direction the British police are heading.
Yawn.
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DSilva
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#87
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#87
(Original post by yudothis)
You mean the police intimidating someone for an opinion is fine according to you? Of course only dressed as "they were looking out for him".

Stasi, Gestapo, China, just some things that come to mind in response to your viewpoint.

The modern left is fascist af.
Yeah, supporting state provision of key public sevcies, an end to austerity and increased workers rights is really fascist af.

Good point.

Funny, you no doubt berate people on the 'left' for using the terms 'fascist' and 'far right' loosely but here you are, doing exactly the same.
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yudothis
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(Original post by DSilva)
Yeah, supporting state provision of key public sevcies, an end to austerity and increased workers rights is really fascist af.

Good point.

Funny, you no doubt berate people on the 'left' for using the terms 'fascist' and 'far right' loosely but here you are, doing exactly the same.
I didn't say those things are. You are using a straw man. Try again.

And yes, I use that word on purpose because a) it is accurate - policing thought and believing violence or state power to push your ideology to be fine is fascist and b) exactly, they use the term all the time (they like name calling) and yet behave in the same way, highly hypocritical.
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DSilva
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(Original post by yudothis)
I didn't say those things are. You are using a straw man. Try again.

And yes, I use that word on purpose because a) it is accurate - policing thought and believing violence or state power to push your ideology to be fine is fascist and b) exactly, they use the term all the time (they like name calling) and yet behave in the same way, highly hypocritical.
Well you did. Because they're what left wing actually means...

I don't believe in any of the 'sjw' nonsense but very much do believe in the left wing economic arguments. So that makes me fascist? Okay.

I really don't think you know what fascism means. Perhaps studying 1930s and 40s Europe will give you an indication, rather than a few overly idealistic students making stupid complaints.

Stop watering terms down to the point they become meaningless. You can't complain about people using the term 'far right' loosely when you do the same with 'fascist'. Because that just makes you a hypocrite.
Last edited by DSilva; 3 weeks ago
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yudothis
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(Original post by DSilva)
Well you did. Because they're what left wing actually means...

I don't believe in any of the sjw nonsense but very much do believe in the left wing economic arguments. So that makes me fascist? Okay.

I really don't think you know what fascism means. Perhaps studying 1930s and 40s Europe will give you an indication, rather than a few overly idealistic students making stupid complaints.

Stop watering terms down to the point they become meaningless. You can't complain about people using the term 'far right' loosely when you do the same with 'fascist'. Because that just makes you a hypocrite.
I said the "modern left". The part in bold shows I wasn't talking to you, so get your panties out of a wad.

Look at Turkey - would you say they are fascist? Or just authoritarian? What are they doing? Jailing any free thinker, jailing people who do not support the ideology. What does the modern left want to do? They (of course this is a generlization, but as always, extremes drive a movement) even justify violence against those they deem bigot/-phobic/-ist or any other name they like to call people. Canada has human rights tribunals that don't really have any basis in the law, but if you refuse to comply you have to pay a fine or go to prison. And what they basically solely are, is the thoughtpolice. Says something, they decide it's "offensive" and you are 'guilty'. Or the habit of the modern left to doxx/stalk people and harass their employers to get them fired, so that people lose their livelihood. They might pretend they are good people, but in reality they suppress opposing views.
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DSilva
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#91
(Original post by yudothis)
I said the "modern left". The part in bold shows I wasn't talking to you, so get your panties out of a wad.

Look at Turkey - would you say they are fascist? Or just authoritarian? What are they doing? Jailing any free thinker, jailing people who do not support the ideology. What does the modern left want to do? They (of course this is a generlization, but as always, extremes drive a movement) even justify violence against those they deem bigot/-phobic/-ist or any other name they like to call people. Canada has human rights tribunals that don't really have any basis in the law, but if you refuse to comply you have to pay a fine or go to prison. And what they basically solely are, is the thoughtpolice. Says something, they decide it's "offensive" and you are 'guilty'. Or the habit of the modern left to doxx/stalk people and harass their employers to get them fired, so that people lose their livelihood. They might pretend they are good people, but in reality they suppress opposing views.
Fascism is a genuine political ideology, which in the 30s and 40s resulted in the deaths and brutal oppression of millions upon millions. Using it in reference to people complaining about hurt feelings does nothing but completely water down the term, making it meaningless. If you're going to do that, you're every bit as bad as those who accuse anyone who wants restrictions on immigration as 'far right'.


The term 'modern left' is one you've made up. You've taken the views of a handful of people, most of whom aren't actually left wing by any genuine understanding of the term, and are using it to describe millions upon millions of poeple. It's what you no doubt accuse the 'left' of doing with regards to the right and far right.

Which Canadian human rights tribunals have no basis in law? Which human rights tribunals in Canada have sent people to prison? Who in Canada is violently oppressing others? Be specific.

Here's one for you, recently a group of protestors who chained themselves to a runway to stop a plane deporting immigrants from taking off, were jailed under the terrorism act. Yes, terrorism...

And you call 'the left' fascist...
Last edited by DSilva; 3 weeks ago
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Dez
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#92
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#92
(Original post by generallee)
1. The freedom to cause offence (in a non defamatory way) without the involvement of the state is exactly what freedom of speech means. If not, how do you define it, whilst excluding that part of its definition?

2. I was not emotional, I raised my voice because you appeared to be hard of hearing. Or were being obtuse.

3. I understand that you don't like it to be pointed out that to get Humberside County Council to send in its Social Workers over a retweeted limerick is utterly risible. Laughable. Beyond ridicule (let alone serious debate). But in that case you shouldn't make the suggestion.
1. Freedom of expresison is nuanced and complex, but the essence of it is that people are free to express themselves in any regard within the confines of the law. That freedom is independent of the state's own freedom to provide information to people.

2. This is an Internet forum. Nobody can hear you scream.

3. Sure, let's just do nothing then. Then when some bloke goes on to attack a trans individual we can all shrug our shoulders at it and be like "well, what could we possibly do to prevent atrocities like this in the future?".

(Original post by yudothis)
Right. Who made you the moral apostle?
I'm allowed to express opinions on the subject same as anyone.

(Original post by yudothis)
He was told by a police officer abusing his power (remember, no crime was committed) that some people don't like his factually correct opinion.
The police should not have been involved. I'm getting tired of saying this over and over.

(Original post by yudothis)
You mean the police intimidating someone for an opinion is fine according to you? Of course only dressed as "they were looking out for him".

Stasi, Gestapo, China, just some things that come to mind in response to your viewpoint.

The modern left is fascist af.
The police should not have been involved. I'm getting tired of saying this over and over and over.

(Original post by yudothis)
The police are indoctrinated by nasty lobby groups like Mermaids - google their material that they teach to police and other insitutions, including schools. It is sickening propaganda that a) leads to child abuse and b) suppression of free speech.
Lies and fabrication. Had this discussion already earlier in the thread when Good Bloke tried to slander them, and then found out everything he claimed about the group was actually tabloid media lies. Try actually doing some unbiased research into the topic and you'll see they're nowhere near as bad as their political enemies make out.

Mermaids' only real issue is that they are essentially a group of laypeople providing medical advice, which is due to an utter lack of funding to get any professional help to vulnerable kids. But without Mermaids these kids would have nobody at all to turn to. For them, non-professional advice is still better than nothing.
(Original post by yudothis)
Again, who made you the moral apostle? Who decides what is "hateful"? The loud bunch of SJWs that cry oppression 24/7?
The stuff he's posting is objectively hateful, i.e. he is expressing hatred for certain individuals. Go ahead and read his Twitter feed yourself if you don't believe me.
(Original post by yudothis)
You're joking, the entire trans agenda is like flat earth and you're saying people who reject gender ideology are like flat earthers? And "I'm open to scientific evidence".

The projection could not be more real.
Oh bore off. There is a ton of scientific evidence as to how sex, gender and biology work. The medical community are in no doubt that gender dysphoria exists. In the face of that anti-trans folk just purport nonsense - trans leads to more rapes, trans will ruin social cohesion, and so on. The whole anti-trans thing is based on pseudoscience and myths.
(Original post by yudothis)
You are lying. All major lobby groups demand hormone treatment earlier and earlier and at a whim. This view is not a minority. Doctors are afraid to say no. You are so deluded it's frightening.
This is not true at all. Puberty blockers are generally the only (physical) medication prescribed to under-16s and nobody except some fringe loons are trying to change that. You're completely deluded as to the reality of gender dysphoria treatment. Don't believe everything the extremists tell you.
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Good bloke
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#93
(Original post by Dez)
The medical community are in no doubt that gender dysphoria exists. Puberty blockers are generally the only (physical) medication prescribed to under-16s
Nobody denies that gender dysphoria exists. The problem lies in the solutions propounded. Reason dictates that patience, education and counselling would be good for minors. When they have realised that the sexual stereotypes need not apply and that those gender stereotypes being peddled by the trans lobby itself are of no value they can make their own decisions, and a good many will do nothing.The trans lobby, though, rushes to hormones and has its eye on later surgical intervention and encourages minors to take a course they later regret intensely.

And there are members on TSR to which this applies.

You say 'only physical medication' as though puberty blocking is innocuous and harmless. It clearly isn't. Stop doing it.
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Dez
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(Original post by Good bloke)
Nobody denies that gender dysphoria exists. The problem lies in the solutions propounded. Reason dictates that patience, education and counselling would be good for minors. When they have realised that the sexual stereotypes need not apply and that those gender stereotypes being peddled by the trans lobby itself are of no value they can make their own decisions, and a good many will do nothing.The trans lobby, though, rushes to hormones and has its eye on later surgical intervention and encourages minors to take a course they later regret intensely.
Nonsense. Psychological counselling plays a key part in treating trans individuals, and nobody ever goes as far as sex reassignment without some form of mental therapy (quite a lot of therapy, in fact). The idea that a teen can just rock up to a clinic and get prescribed a pack of testoterone pils is completely unfounded in fact.
(Original post by Good bloke)
You say 'only physical medication' as though puberty blocking is innocuous and harmless. It clearly isn't. Stop doing it.
Puberty blockers have been subject to plenty of medical research, and they are generally considered to be both harmless and (if necessary) reversible without causing adverse side-effects. They are currently the best treatment we have, and so they come highly recommended by most medical professionals.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Dez)
Puberty blockers have been subject to plenty of medical research, and they are generally considered to be both harmless and (if necessary) reversible without causing adverse side-effects. They are currently the best treatment we have, and so they come highly recommended by most medical professionals.
There is almost no long-term research into their use so you are being specious when you say that.

The individual (being pubertal) is not sufficiently mature to take a decision to be prescribed them. Hence the need to indocrtrinate them, of course.

Gender dysphoria cannot be properly diagnosed for certainty in adolescemce because gender identity is fluctuating wildly anyway in many cases. The high proportion of desisters indicates that early treatment is premature and very inappropriate, even if GD is certain.

In particular, the effect of such hormones on bone mass and growth and on brain development is insufficiently researched.
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Acsel
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(Original post by Dez)
2. This is an Internet forum. Nobody can hear you scream.
A fact I am thankful for every time I come on TSR. Imagining threads like this taking place as in person "conversations" is just painful.
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Dez
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(Original post by Good bloke)
There is almost no long-term research into their use so you are being specious when you say that.
Yeah I guess we shouldn't risk giving kids potentially life-saving medication now. If there's a chance they'll have slightly weaker bones 50 years from now, it'll all be for nothing. :rolleyes:

All medications carry some form of risk, doctors need to balance those risks against the risks of harm involved in not taking them, which in some cases can be considerable. Many trans kids self-harm, some will even resort to suicide. I'd rather see a living, relatively healthy adult with a bone disorder over a kid's corpse.

(Original post by Good bloke)
The individual (being pubertal) is not sufficiently mature to take a decision to be prescribed them. Hence the need to indocrtrinate them, of course.
Doctors are the ones that prescribe medications, not the patient. Again, nobody just rocks up to a clinic and picks up some hormones off the shelf.

(Original post by Good bloke)
Gender dysphoria cannot be properly diagnosed for certainty in adolescemce because gender identity is fluctuating wildly anyway in many cases.
For a "certainty", no. That's why treatment in early years tends to stick to things that are still physically reversible.

(Original post by Good bloke)
The high proportion of desisters indicates that early treatment is premature and very inappropriate, even if GD is certain.
First off, the "high proportion of desisters" as you put it is tenuously proven at best. I hope the irony of this bold claim is not lost on you when you're simultaneously arguing against puberty blockers because of a lack of studies. Both areas lack study and ultimately there are way too many unknowns around GD.

Your conclusion is baseless though, regardless of the truth. Clearly kids facing issues of GD and other gender conformity issues need to be treated somehow, leaving them to their own devices for 6 years is not going to help.

(Original post by Good bloke)
In particular, the effect of such hormones on bone mass and growth and on brain development is insufficiently researched.
Until someone invents a time machine, doctors have to do the best they can with what they have. Until some better form of treatment comes along or enough time has passed to do the research you mentioned, we're stuck where we're at now.
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Dez
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(Original post by Acsel)
A fact I am thankful for every time I come on TSR. Imagining threads like this taking place as in person "conversations" is just painful.
PRSOM
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Dez)
For a "certainty", no. That's why treatment in early years tends to stick to things that are still physically reversible.
Both areas lack study and ultimately there are way too many unknowns around GD.
Incomplete brain development is reversible?

There are too many unknoiwns around, which is why you should desist from abusing troubled minors and trying to impose such an orthodoxy until they have been properly researched.
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Cast Iron
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(Original post by Dez)
3. Sure, let's just do nothing then. Then when some bloke goes on to attack a trans individual we can all shrug our shoulders at it and be like "well, what could we possibly do to prevent atrocities like this in the future?".

Sometimes stuff like this happens and it can't be prevented. Do you honestly think if someone wants to attack trans people that having the cops harass them for expressing an opinion on social media is going to prevent that? If anything it will just give them ammunition to justify their attack, they will see it as they've had to resort to violence because the state won't allow any peaceful criticism of trans people. You've got to let people


(Original post by Dez)
The stuff he's posting is objectively hateful, i.e. he is expressing hatred for certain individuals. Go ahead and read his Twitter feed yourself if you don't believe me.
So what? He is allowed to have and express hateful opinions. Lots of people have posted objectively hateful stuff towards him, they are expressing hatred towards him for posting the limerick. If they are free to post hatred towards him, why can't he post hatred too?
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