Alternate History series: What would have happened if the Allies lost the war?

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MrDystopia
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So this is the first thread in a series we're running on TSR, which looks at thinking about how world history could have changed if certain events hadn't happened, or had happened in different ways. What developments or subsequent world events would've been different as a result? Which political ideas would be more or less prominent?

In the first thread, we'll discuss what would have happened if the Allies had lost the war.

Churchill and co are unsuccessful in stopping Hitler's expansion, but what would have happened as a result?
Would Hitler have carried expanding or was there a limit? What would have happened with Russia?
And across the pond (somehow) the US have managed to lose the war with Japan. What happens there?
Would the UN have still formed after the war?
Would Communism still have reigned supreme on one side of the world?

Please do keep things thoughtful, this should hopefully make for some interesting thoughts on world history
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Afterlife?
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We’d speak German on tsr
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Andrew97
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It depends on when the U.K. surrendered.
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Vinny C
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We would all help them find it again.
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brexitbongaloo
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(Original post by Afterlife?)
We’d speak German on tsr
Perhaps in some 1942 Disney propaganda film where the nazis actually wanted to take over the universe or something. But in a realistic scenario, no.

(Original post by Andrew97)
It depends on when the U.K. surrendered.
Well with alt his there are millions of variations

(Original post by MrDystopia)
So this is the first thread in a series we're running on TSR, which looks at thinking about how world history could have changed if certain events hadn't happened, or had happened in different ways. What developments or subsequent world events would've been different as a result? Which political ideas would be more or less prominent?

In the first thread, we'll discuss what would have happened if the Allies had lost the war.

Churchill and co are unsuccessful in stopping Hitler's expansion, but what would have happened as a result?
Would Hitler have carried expanding or was there a limit? What would have happened with Russia?
And across the pond (somehow) the US have managed to lose the war with Japan. What happens there?
Would the UN have still formed after the war?
Would Communism still have reigned supreme on one side of the world?

Please do keep things thoughtful, this should hopefully make for some interesting thoughts on world history
It really depends how and when the allies "lost" the war.

For example if Chamberlain just quits in 1939 when poland loses there wouldn't be a 2nd front or Churchill wouldn't become PM

>Would Hitler have carried expanding or was there a limit?
The max geographic limit was the Ural mountains in russia, contrary to popular beleif hitler never wanted to take over the anglo ruled world, but did of course want Germany to be a hegemony in continental europe.

>And across the pond (somehow) the US have managed to lose the war with Japan. What happens there?
The only way the US would lose against Japan is if the japs had a string of decisive naval battles sinking 10 ships to one of their own, and then raiding californian ship yards. At that point then the US would possibly come to negotiated terms. But even the japanese only wanted to impede american intervention in southern asia.

>Would the UN have still formed after the war?
The UN was an idea formed between churchill and roosevelt in 1942 or 43 (i've forgotten which conference) with britain and/or the US defeated. No there would be no UN.

>Would Communism still have reigned supreme on one side of the world?
With the european crusade in russia victorious and the japanese crusade in china victorious there wouldn't be communism anywhere.

Again, i've only replied to this post as some kind of total axis victory. There are so many interesting variations to alternate history such as Hitler and Stalin making peace (again more variations depending on which year), britain making peace, germany being defeated in france 1940, case blue sucessful, the italians being more competant, the italians not invading north africa or even alt his. scenarios that sound crazy (but are actually rooted in reality) such as the soviet union joining the Axis.

Which actually is partially a reason why Japan didn't join germany in invading russia was because they felt betrayed by Germany when they signed the Molotov-Rippentrop agreement.

Here's a book on the prospect of peace between hitler and stalin - https://archive.org/details/Mastnyst...tePeaceInWorld
Winston Churchill's own books are interesting to read on the course of the war and how precarious it actually was for the allies. - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...460821/page/n9
Last edited by brexitbongaloo; 2 years ago
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Vinny C
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Gavrilo Princip... Without him we would have an end to famine, an end to war and Africa would be a prosperous holiday resort. We might not yet have the internet but where has technology got us?
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ecolier
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(Original post by Afterlife?)
We’d speak German on tsr
Das Studentenzimmer= DSZ

Please don't give me a card, above = TSR in German
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the bear
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Fritz came quite close to building the atom bomb. instead of Nagasaki & Hiroshima it would have been Norwich & a few days later Scunthorpe.
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brexitbongaloo
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(Original post by the bear)
Fritz came quite close to building the atom bomb. instead of Nagasaki & Hiroshima it would have been Norwich & a few days later Scunthorpe.
lol but actually a more realistic scenario would be industrial use of the V2 missile against london.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Coupole
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Ziton
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In a world where the allies hadn't won Churchill would no longer be an icon. The colonies would still be prevalent and the British empire supreme. Whether or not this is good is a debatable argument...
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username3973192
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(Original post by MrDystopia)
So this is the first thread in a series we're running on TSR, which looks at thinking about how world history could have changed if certain events hadn't happened, or had happened in different ways. What developments or subsequent world events would've been different as a result? Which political ideas would be more or less prominent?

In the first thread, we'll discuss what would have happened if the Allies had lost the war.

Churchill and co are unsuccessful in stopping Hitler's expansion, but what would have happened as a result?
Would Hitler have carried expanding or was there a limit? What would have happened with Russia?
And across the pond (somehow) the US have managed to lose the war with Japan. What happens there?
Would the UN have still formed after the war?
Would Communism still have reigned supreme on one side of the world?

Please do keep things thoughtful, this should hopefully make for some interesting thoughts on world history
Hitler would have dominated the earth
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JustOneMoreThing
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I'd be eating a frankfurter now instead of a banger.
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UnclePete
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(Original post by MrDystopia)
So this is the first thread in a series we're running on TSR, which looks at thinking about how world history could have changed if certain events hadn't happened, or had happened in different ways. What developments or subsequent world events would've been different as a result? Which political ideas would be more or less prominent?

In the first thread, we'll discuss what would have happened if the Allies had lost the war.

Churchill and co are unsuccessful in stopping Hitler's expansion, but what would have happened as a result?
Would Hitler have carried expanding or was there a limit? What would have happened with Russia?
And across the pond (somehow) the US have managed to lose the war with Japan. What happens there?
Would the UN have still formed after the war?
Would Communism still have reigned supreme on one side of the world?

Please do keep things thoughtful, this should hopefully make for some interesting thoughts on world history
(Original post by Andrew97)
It depends on when the U.K. surrendered.
" If we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, and all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister by the lights of perverted science" - Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, May 1940, shortly after ` The Miracle of Dunkirk` as he called it, and just before The Battle of Britain.

I remember my Father mentioning his Mother - a no nonsense straight talking Yorkshire woman herself - saying after he arrived home from work one day shortly before being conscripted for the army that " Churchill`s been on the wireless (as it was called then), telling us I can promise you nothing but blood, toil, tears and sweat " : and as my Father said, that`s all we had from then on.

Never one to mince his words, WLSC.

So what would had happened if the Nazis won through? Heaven knows. In spite of Hitler`s rhetoric about the UK and Empire being fellow people I don`t think we in the UK would have been treated better than any other occupied countries - there were some pretty drastic extermination and subjugation plans the Nazis had drawn up for us -except possibly the Slav countries who were regarded by them as `untermench` (sub-human). As for the non-aggression pact between Hitler and Stalin, this was just a case of being in each other`s pockets for only as long as it was useful to both.

Remember at the time of Churchill`s defiance in 1940 Britain and her Empire was just about alone : the Dunkirk outcome could have been so different had Hitler not given the order for Guderian`s Panzers to stop short and pause against his Chief`s advice rather than push on and smash the Allies - reasons of which the historians still debate today.

Many Americans, (not all) thought it was over, being just a question of time, mainly because of the Ambassador of the day was the egregious Irish- American Joe Kennedy requesting meetings with Hitler and gleefully sending back messages to Washington that "democracy is finished in the UK" :

Admiral Darlan of the French Navy was convinced Britain would lose, and was preparing to possibly change sides, join forces with Hitler in spite of Churchill`s pleas and requests the French fleet either join the Royal Navy or sail to North Africa outside the German zone, resulting in Churchill having no choice but to blast the cream of the French Navy to Kingdom-come (and 1300 French sailors) at Mers-el- Kebir - something which is still a sore point between the UK and France today.

Just watch the History series on Freeview 19 to get some idea.

If anybody thinks from my threads on this and WW 2 I am anti-German I can assure you I am not- although not having been over there for some years, it is a country I hold in good regard, know it well from both work and leisure, have many German friends, drive a VW Up! ( And as the Germans are the first to admit, it was a small group of British Army Engineers led by Major Hirst of the REME, that saved VW shortly after WW2 :none of the other Allies had any interest, in fact the Russians and French wanted to asset strip and then destroy the VW plant, the Americans just scoffed at it as they had a massive car industry of their own) and work quite frequently with some of their commissioning engineers who come over to work on some of our equipment. As I have mentioned before, my Father, a WW 2 veteran, also had respect EXCEPT for what the Nazis did, of which he had first hand experience " I`ve seen some of their tricks". Never once though, did he show any animosity to my German friends - in fact he welcomed them like sons of his own.

Some Germans I have spoken to to seem to think that with the power vacuum created after WW1, and abhorent as they were, the Nazis were a gut reaction and bulwark against a communist takeover. And don`t forget many of the English hirearchy in the 30`s were sympathetic to the Nazis, if not their methods. When by a narrow- a very, very, narrow margin in 1940, the cabinet decided to carry on the fight it was two Labour ministers who cast the vote in Churchill`s favour, not his own party, who still regarded Churchill as a maverick and turncoat for crossing the floor to join the Liberal party for a while some thirty-fourty years before.

Regarding the Pacific theatre, just do a bit of cursory research to see what the Japanese did in the Sino/Japanese war between themselves and Soviet backed China - read` The Nanking Massacre` amongst other things-in 1937 to get some idea of what was in store had they been been successful. Interestingly, the Japs were allies of Britain in WW1.
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georgia2302
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I'm pretty sure the Nazis would have been able to completely Nazify most of Europe! In fact, they were extremely strong before their defeat by Britain. It would probably be a lot more complicated in regards to Russia, Japan, etc, but there would be a huge expansion of Nazism and most likely communism too. There would also probably be a massive death count because obviously the extermination camps and mass murders would have continued I don't want to think of what the world would be like today.

also! it's pretty interesting to wonder how the conflicts in Hitler's inner circle might have worked out. Who would become Fuhrer after Hitler? Would there be anymore assassination attempts on him? How would the rivalries work out? Crazy stuff.
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JPT2
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I want to re-read Man in the High Castle now 😶
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UnclePete
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(Original post by georgia2302)
I'm pretty sure the Nazis would have been able to completely Nazify most of Europe! In fact, they were extremely strong before their defeat by Britain. It would probably be a lot more complicated in regards to Russia, Japan, etc, but there would be a huge expansion of Nazism and most likely communism too. There would also probably be a massive death count because obviously the extermination camps and mass murders would have continued I don't want to think of what the world would be like today.

also! it's pretty interesting to wonder how the conflicts in Hitler's inner circle might have worked out. Who would become Fuhrer after Hitler? Would there be anymore assassination attempts on him? How would the rivalries work out? Crazy stuff.

Admiral Doenitz, probably. Schooled in the old Imperial German Naval tradition, he had respect for, but no particular liking, of The British. It is a sobering thought had Hitler let him have as he wanted more U- boats and more resource into their development before the war, The Battle of The Atlantic outcome "The only thing that frightened me" as Churchill said, may well have gone their way. It was a close enough run as it was.

Doenitz was loyal to Fuhrer and Fatherland to the last.

Hitler continually meddled with his Chief of Staffs plans- had he not, the Nazis could have turned the war in their favour almost to the end.
(Original post by georgia2302)
I'm pretty sure the Nazis would have been able to completely Nazify most of Europe! In fact, they were extremely strong before their defeat by Britain. It would probably be a lot more complicated in regards to Russia, Japan, etc, but there would be a huge expansion of Nazism and most likely communism too. There would also probably be a massive death count because obviously the extermination camps and mass murders would have continued I don't want to think of what the world would be like today.

also! it's pretty interesting to wonder how the conflicts in Hitler's inner circle might have worked out. Who would become Fuhrer after Hitler? Would there be anymore assassination attempts on him? How would the rivalries work out? Crazy stuff.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by the bear)
Fritz came quite close to building the atom bomb. instead of Nagasaki & Hiroshima it would have been Norwich & a few days later Scunthorpe.
They didn't get very close - they lacked crucial resources and information - also Heisenberg, who was in charge of the programme, probably deliberately misdirected their efforts. Luckily.
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UnclePete
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
They didn't get very close - they lacked crucial resources and information - also Heisenberg, who was in charge of the programme, probably deliberately misdirected their efforts. Luckily.
As you say just as well- had they done more research and development earlier, a nuclear head could have been fitted to the V2 rocket which in itself had the Allied authorities really worried: that and earlier development/production runs of the jet .
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we would of been controlled by Hitler and we would of not devolved as much as we are todayin what we do
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by UnclePete)
As you say just as well- had they done more research and development earlier, a nuclear head could have been fitted to the V2 rocket which in itself had the Allied authorities really worried: that and earlier development/production runs of the jet .
They might have put the vast resources into nuclear weapons development in 39/40 if they'd been properly aware of the issues, but the Nazi leadership were extremely incompetent and their chronic anti-Jewish rhetoric and beliefs stopped them from even believing in particle physics and nuclear fission for a long while, not to mention driving many of their best scientists out of the country.

In fact, the idea that the Nazis were working on a bomb was much more a myth generated by the people in charge of the Manhatten Project than it ever was a German reality. This myth was used partly to pressure the scientists who worked on the MP in the US and also to pressure US politicians into continuing to fund the massive demands of the work.
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