Brexit - your perspective over the years Watch

04MR17
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
But you seem to be OK with them doing so?
I don't have a problem with MPs supporting remain in the chamber if the majority of their consituents voted that way. The ones you're talking about are those who are voting remain despite a majority leave vote in constituency I'm not sure. I think it's quite important for MPs to vote honestly, and if there are issues with the legislation then I don't see what damage is done by slowing the process down and being thorough with this, because it's important. If there are MPs whose aim is simply to frustrate the process then I don't support them, but I'm not sure many MPs fall into this category.

I find it amusing that leavers claimed the EU doesn't listen to the British people and takes away the sovereignty of parliament then complain that parliament doesn't listen to the British people though.
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Burton Bridge
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#82
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(Original post by 04MR17)
I find it amusing that leavers claimed the EU doesn't listen to the British people and takes away the sovereignty of parliament then complain that parliament doesn't listen to the British people though.
Well from my side that's not a problem, the EU is always going to be divided and undemocratic by its very nature however the mainly labour MPs whom are betraying their paymasters the electorate are going to be knocking on my door (literally) for a vote again very shortly - good luck.
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Other_Owl
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#83
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#83
All I know is Britain is leaving the EU and there is a chance we will have a No Deal.
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DJKL
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Well from my side that's not a problem, the EU is always going to be divided and undemocratic by its very nature however the mainly labour MPs whom are betraying their paymasters the electorate are going to be knocking on my door (literally) for a vote again very shortly - good luck.
That works both ways, the Conservative Party have kissed goodbye to my vote (much to the joy of my children and wife), they are no longer my first choice voting preference as they had been for a very long time, and I suspect they have kissed goodbye to any of their recent improvement in Scotland; this does not just apply to Westminster but to Local and Scottish elections. They only had one USP, economic competence and business friendly, they have just trashed that.
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Burton Bridge
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#85
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#85
(Original post by DJKL)
That works both ways, the Conservative Party have kissed goodbye to my vote (much to the joy of my children and wife), they are no longer my first choice voting preference as they had been for a very long time, and I suspect they have kissed goodbye to any of their recent improvement in Scotland; this does not just apply to Westminster but to Local and Scottish elections. They only had one USP, economic competence and business friendly, they have just trashed that.
Oh good god yes, 100% agree. Let me just confirm I'm a former Labour party member, I'm not saying it's only Labour that are voting against the will of the nation at all, just to be 100% clear.
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04MR17
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Oh good god yes, 100% agree. Let me just confirm I'm a former Labour party member, I'm not saying it's only Labour that are voting against the will of the nation at all, just to be 100% clear.
52% of *
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DJKL
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Oh good god yes, 100% agree. Let me just confirm I'm a former Labour party member, I'm not saying it's only Labour that are voting against the will of the nation at all, just to be 100% clear.
I am not voting against them for not following the "will of the people", I am voting against them because they put such an issue to the electorate and appear to have faint regard for the ill thought through consequences of chasing unicorns.

I can still see little merit in Brexit and I doubt the next year or two is going to change my point of view, I may be resigned to it, I am, but sensible idea, well thought out idea, I doubt I will ever come to that viewpoint. Will the UK ever see the advertised benefits, doubt it.

The facts, to me, are pretty basic, the world economies have embraced cross border business and any country which believes it can buck that and control its destiny outside a large economic block ,which at least has some power, is kidding themself; Brexit is searching for a black cat, in a dark room, that is not there.

However not long now to see the outcome- immediate impacts pretty soon if No Deal, say first 9 months post a No Deal exit. longer term impacts say 10 years, will not impact me by then, I will be retired, will merely impact the majority of posters on this site, it is their future not mine.
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Burton Bridge
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#88
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#88
(Original post by 04MR17)
52% of *
Which is a small majority, I did not vote tory but the majority of constituencies of the country did, qouteing the percentage is a strawman
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Burton Bridge
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#89
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(Original post by DJKL)
I am not voting against them for not following the "will of the people", I am voting against them because they put such an issue to the electorate and appear to have faint regard for the ill thought through consequences of chasing unicorns.
If you are an MP voted in power by your constituents to represent them, whom votes against what the majority of you're paymasters instructions then you are not doing your job and I hope you're constituents vote you out and you never gain access to such a roll again, people like that are dangerous dictators, these people need to learn what public servants means.

By the way the rest of you're post is only you're opinion, its not fact anymore than mine is. The electorate did not vote for 'unicorns' Another spin Dr like quote to belittle the opinion that does not fit with yours
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ByEeek
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#90
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(Original post by Abaddon rex)
It’s not Brexit but the confusion over it that has left investor uncertain and led to a drop in the pound if there had not been all the doom saying around it i very much doubt it would have been any where near as bad as it has become.
Who are the doom sayers? From what I can see, it is the people who are having to deal with the uncertainty and the real fall out that has been caused by Brexit, e.g. the people who rely on the ability to sell / buy goods to / from Europe. Pro Brexit like to call it project fear, but if you are a business who is seeing your order book dry up as European buyers seek companies elsewhere to do business with, such comments are both ignorant and disingenuous.
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Abaddon rex
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#91
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Who are the doom sayers? From what I can see, it is the people who are having to deal with the uncertainty and the real fall out that has been caused by Brexit, e.g. the people who rely on the ability to sell / buy goods to / from Europe. Pro Brexit like to call it project fear, but if you are a business who is seeing your order book dry up as European buyers seek companies elsewhere to do business with, such comments are both ignorant and disingenuous.
Yes I agree it might look like that, however the reason the business is in that position is fear no one actually knows what the outcome will be but all the negativity makes business leader nervous and it becomes a self fulfilling prophy. Once the result was in the whole of the government all parties should have sat down together and worked out the best way to achieve what the majority of people wanted. By delaying, trying for a 2nd referendum etc they made things worse and they made us look a laughing stock. The problem is politicians generally put their own needs first and that is why they make such odd decisions at times because they are all thinking of their own career and not the big picture and the country’s welfare. That’s my biggest beef with the EU all the unnecessary extra layers of bureaucracy and the unneeded politicians. Still I don’t want to argue the worst thing about the whole situation is the anger and animosity it has stirred up.
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DJKL
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#92
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#92
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
If you are an MP voted in power by your constituents to represent them, whom votes against what the majority of you're paymasters instructions then you are not doing your job and I hope you're constituents vote you out and you never gain access to such a roll again, people like that are dangerous dictators, these people need to learn what public servants means.

By the way the rest of you're post is only you're opinion, its not fact anymore than mine is. The electorate did not vote for 'unicorns' Another spin Dr like quote to belittle the opinion that does not fit with yours
Great, no unicorns- is easiest deal not a unicorn? Simple market access, not a unicorn?

At least the government is finally preparing for No Deal by allocating cross channel truck capacity priorities to different sectors of the economy which need goods brought in, must just be a belt and braces approach as they do not really believe there may be logistics issues or suchlike.

And an MP's duty is to use his /her discretion to represent all of his constituency not just some, if we go back to the general election how many MP's got over 50% of the vote in their constituency, do they not represent the ones who did not vote for them?
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DJKL
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Abaddon rex)
Yes I agree it might look like that, however the reason the business is in that position is fear no one actually knows what the outcome will be but all the negativity makes business leader nervous and it becomes a self fulfilling prophy. Once the result was in the whole of the government all parties should have sat down together and worked out the best way to achieve what the majority of people wanted. By delaying, trying for a 2nd referendum etc they made things worse and they made us look a laughing stock. The problem is politicians generally put their own needs first and that is why they make such odd decisions at times because they are all thinking of their own career and not the big picture and the country’s welfare. That’s my biggest beef with the EU all the unnecessary extra layers of bureaucracy and the unneeded politicians. Still I don’t want to argue the worst thing about the whole situation is the anger and animosity it has stirred up.
So it is May's red lines, do not disagree, but given she has walked us down this path no wonder business is uncertain, even if you are not directly impacted, do not import /export yourself as a business, the uncertainty impacts with real evidence of a business inertia.

My employer rents commercial property to SMEs who run their business from same, we log all phone calls from individuals/business looking for premises, the flow of calls diminished during 2014 re Indy Ref 2 up here, slowly started to recover in 2015, slowed again in 2016 and runs at much lower numbers since then, our commercial agent who does the lettings now tends to leave the office between 2-5 most days rather than still be there through to 6-7 in the evening. Business is already suffering, a lot of business entities are frozen in limbo. the decade since 2008 has been dire for a lot of business entities, nearly half of that caused by vanity political ideology that in both cases re Scotland is pretty unlikely to turn out as the advocates of same have promised and of course Brexit might cause even more chaos here if it leads to Indy ref 2.
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Abaddon rex
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#94
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#94
(Original post by DJKL)
So it is May's red lines, do not disagree, but given she has walked us down this path no wonder business is uncertain, even if you are not directly impacted, do not import /export yourself as a business, the uncertainty impacts with real evidence of a business inertia.

My employer rents commercial property to SMEs who run their business from same, we log all phone calls from individuals/business looking for premises, the flow of calls diminished during 2014 re Indy Ref 2 up here, slowly started to recover in 2015, slowed again in 2016 and runs at much lower numbers since then, our commercial agent who does the lettings now tends to leave the office between 2-5 most days rather than still be there through to 6-7 in the evening. Business is already suffering, a lot of business entities are frozen in limbo. the decade since 2008 has been dire for a lot of business entities, nearly half of that caused by vanity political ideology that in both cases re Scotland is pretty unlikely to turn out as the advocates of same have promised and of course Brexit might cause even more chaos here if it leads to Indy ref 2.
I am not trying to play an individual blame game there is enough guilt and incompetence to go round all sides, I am sorry about the effect on the business you work for, I don’t wish anyone any bad fortunes in any way even if they disagree with me. You are kind of agreeing with my point when you talk about vanity and ideology and that’s the point they’re all to bothered about how things will affect them individually and are not really working on doing the best job they can. The thing I don’t get is this why can’t we leave the EU and then have a new agreement with them that suits both parties whilst we remain separate from them? If that sort of thing had been worked out instead of all the idiocy things would be looking much rosier for all involved after leaving the EU doesn’t mean we can never talk or trade with them again it just means an end to the current situation.
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Burton Bridge
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#95
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#95
(Original post by DJKL)
Great, no unicorns- is easiest deal not a unicorn? Simple market access, not a unicorn?
No more than the cliff edge, crash out, hospitals will close because they won't have doctors or mass deportation of EU citizens are unicorns. None are true. Regarding simple market access that is very possible and certainly is not a unicorn.
(Original post by DJKL)
At least the government is finally preparing for No Deal by allocating cross channel truck capacity priorities to different sectors of the economy which need goods brought in, must just be a belt and braces approach as they do not really believe there may be logistics issues or suchlike.
[

Too little too late though I fear realistically we need a short, medium and long term plan, unfortunately we have the wrong party in power to deliver a good Brexit that will benefit the majority of the country.



(Original post by DJKL)
MP's duty is to use his /her discretion to represent all of his constituency not just some, if we go back to the general election how many MP's got over 50% of the vote in their constituency, do they not represent the ones who did not vote for them?
That's not how democracy works, an MP is elected on the system in place, elected on promises and judged performance of those promises. If they wish to ignore the wishes of the majority of their constituents then good luck getting votes again. You saw what happened to the lib dems, veiw it as a crystal ball
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DJKL
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#96
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#96
(Original post by Abaddon rex)
I am not trying to play an individual blame game there is enough guilt and incompetence to go round all sides, I am sorry about the effect on the business you work for, I don’t wish anyone any bad fortunes in any way even if they disagree with me. You are kind of agreeing with my point when you talk about vanity and ideology and that’s the point they’re all to bothered about how things will affect them individually and are not really working on doing the best job they can. The thing I don’t get is this why can’t we leave the EU and then have a new agreement with them that suits both parties whilst we remain separate from them? If that sort of thing had been worked out instead of all the idiocy things would be looking much rosier for all involved after leaving the EU doesn’t mean we can never talk or trade with them again it just means an end to the current situation.
Irish border is main political sticking point.
Issues with product conformity and standards recognition through mutually recognised regulatory bodies is next major issue.
Tariffs and cost re same is possibly the simplest issue.
Services is a write off (and given the UK is a services based economy it is strange the UK has taken this approach) and nothing on table re them really to discuss, which is tricky as quite a few contracts cover both goods and services.
Professional recognition looks a disaster at present, my brother in law is a QP (Qualified Person) in the pharma industry, currently about 75% of his income as a consultant is cross border, most of that into Europe, but even for those contracts he does in say Australia the holding companies tend to be European and are unlikely to use his services if his professional qualifications are not recognised in the EU.

The catch is despite being members of the EU for all these years we never really understood its philosophy, the four freedoms are its central underlying planks, the EU imho is not, and never was, going to allow us to undermine these tenets, if we want access like we had it will need to be a form of EEA/EFTA deal involving both Customs Union and Single Market, we have ruled these out and therefore are where we are.

The politicians on our side , having not really done their homework re how the EU works or what was the art of the possible, have put barriers in place to any such access deal that will not cause us a financial cost.

At the end of the day Brexit is like a set of scales, sovereignty (or at least an impression/illusion of same) versus economics, they key is how much of one we are prepared to give up for the other, but fully having both was never an option despite the impression some politicians may have given
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Abaddon rex
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#97
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#97
(Original post by DJKL)
Irish border is main political sticking point.
Issues with product conformity and standards recognition through mutually recognised regulatory bodies is next major issue.
Tariffs and cost re same is possibly the simplest issue.
Services is a write off (and given the UK is a services based economy it is strange the UK has taken this approach) and nothing on table re them really to discuss, which is tricky as quite a few contracts cover both goods and services.
Professional recognition looks a disaster at present, my brother in law is a QP (Qualified Person) in the pharma industry, currently about 75% of his income as a consultant is cross border, most of that into Europe, but even for those contracts he does in say Australia the holding companies tend to be European and are unlikely to use his services if his professional qualifications are not recognised in the EU.

The catch is despite being members of the EU for all these years we never really understood its philosophy, the four freedoms are its central underlying planks, the EU imho is not, and never was, going to allow us to undermine these tenets, if we want access like we had it will need to be a form of EEA/EFTA deal involving both Customs Union and Single Market, we have ruled these out and therefore are where we are.

The politicians on our side , having not really done their homework re how the EU works or what was the art of the possible, have put barriers in place to any such access deal that will not cause us a financial cost.

At the end of the day Brexit is like a set of scales, sovereignty (or at least an impression/illusion of same) versus economics, they key is how much of one we are prepared to give up for the other, but fully having both was never an option despite the impression some politicians may have given
Yes but when it was formed it was just a trading union not a political monster it is now, we never voted to join the framework that is now in use it has totally changed and we had no say in any of it that is the point it’s just a thinly veiled for of dictatorship. And despite all the problems you list none would be insurmountable if our government worked together and the EU wasn’t so keen to put us in our place another reason we should leave they treat us like children.
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DJKL
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#98
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#98
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No more than the cliff edge, crash out, hospitals will close because they won't have doctors or mass deportation of EU citizens are unicorns. None are true. Regarding simple market access that is very possible and certainly is not a unicorn.



Too little too late though I fear realistically we need a short, medium and long term plan, unfortunately we have the wrong party in power to deliver a good Brexit that will benefit the majority of the country.





That's not how democracy works, an MP is elected on the system in place, elected on promises and judged performance of those promises. If they wish to ignore the wishes of the majority of their constituents then good luck getting votes again. You saw what happened to the lib dems, veiw it as a crystal ball
How many had the majority of their constiuents votes in 2017, when there are more than two parties quite often elected with 40% of the votes, they need to represent all of these individuals not merely some.

Your too little too late suggests you accept there could be supply interuptions so allows the possibility that warning was not wholly Project Fear

Rather than use arguments I have never expoused re hospitals and deportations, why not address yourself to sift through which warnings are actually likely and which are not, whilst I believe Remain was a far better option I do accept the vote needs a political response, the question then is what response and what is the economic cost going to be re that response, which boils down to which warnings possibly are correct and which are not.

For that one needs to forget accepting everything one or the other side stated and address which ones you believe have a foundation in truth.

Fact is HMG are making plans for logistics issues re priority of movements, Ro Ro has the issue that if trucks from UK get stacked in Calais re customs there then ferries cannot return to UK with foodstuffs etc until they are emptied at the far side, there is limited Calais space for stacking lorries as they await customs etc clearance to clear that port and head into the EU. Now we can deal with this, no checks our end then send ferries UK to EU empty, they come back EU to UK full, that is possible but does not do much for UK exports nor business that swaps parts and goods backwards and forward in their production process.

There is an interesting interview on LBC by phone with someone who works importing fruit and veg etc, it suggests HMG are suggesting that in their priorities that sector will possibly operate at 25% produce movement capacity, apparently being priority 4, medicines being priority 1, now either the caller made it all up or HMG have set these priorities if No Deal. It may be Project Fear but possibly is correct, certainly we have had the HMG announcement re medicine being first priority though I have yet to find HMG notices re how they have set the others in ordr of priority.

If HMG does not believe any of this why the planning has to be the big question.

Have a listen and see what you think.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...o-deal-brexit/
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DJKL
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#99
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#99
(Original post by Abaddon rex)
Yes but when it was formed it was just a trading union not a political monster it is now, we never voted to join the framework that is now in use it has totally changed and we had no say in any of it that is the point it’s just a thinly veiled for of dictatorship. And despite all the problems you list none would be insurmountable if our government worked together and the EU wasn’t so keen to put us in our place another reason we should leave they treat us like children.
So your cure for NI issue is what?

I am really not convinced the EU's primary purpose is to put us in our place, it may be part of their agenda but the fact that they have offered EEA/EFTA type arrangement suggests they have tried to accomodate, I am not convinced we have offered them anything they can possibly accept, we just do not have any operatives/experts working for us who really understand the EU properly that we have not sidelined.

Looking at it from their side they signed off with HMG the WA last year and we are the ones saying it is now no good, who is being difficult here, who has led them on re agreeing it but cannot deliver it?

The fact is any exit as we are proposing is going to really hurt, we could have lessened the pain viewing our exit as a step by step process rather than an event, something like Richard North of the Leave Alliance's Flexcit, but we allowed some of our politicians to derail the process, to sell us that we could have everything now with litle cost, that was never going to happen.

Try reading Flexcit if you want to see how we might have left. it is very long, very detailed, but steers a gradual disengagement pathway that could have worked.

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf
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the bear
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#100
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#100
Brexit is the brainchild of people whose economics education was obtained by watching Only Fools & Horses, and whose cultural sensitivity was honed by the Black & White Minstrel Show.

smh
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