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paul514
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#61
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#61
(Original post by ByEeek)
True. But I don't think you can compare like for like. The UK is massively more wealthy now than it was pre EU days. We also live in a world where travel and communication have never been easier plus the world has many troubled countries with people looking for a better life but more to the point who are informed about the opportunities that exist around the world.
It doesn’t need to be compared to pre EU days and no one is saying that.

One can simply look at what was going on 20 years ago to see the difference without going back 50 years.

It isn’t to do with wealth more people come from outside the Eu because we let them. They can’t come if we don’t it’s as simple as that.

As for what’s changed in that 20 year period inside the EU it’s simple the easy The old soviet block countries joined at the start of the new century.

This really isn’t rocket science.

People on my side of the fence say.... train people who already live here and pay people more if your job is less appealing.

You don’t need 600,000 people coming in per year if you do that.
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Burton Bridge
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#62
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#62
Firstly I wish I say great debate from both
@ByEeek and @paul514. To be honest with you it is refreshing to see good sensible debate on this subject without petty name calling anywhere nevermind an open Internet forum.

I’ll try to answer you're question but largely I agree with Paul but not totally. So what would I do?
I would change the laws and regulations of whom can enter the country, I'd completely overhaul the policies set up by new Labour and removed the damaging and disastrous immigration cap the Conservatives have implemented. My system would be a point system, if an employer wanted to employ anyone in a skilled role whom has advertised unsuccessful within the UK that person would automatically be granted UK citizenship, short of that migrants would be scored on their skills vs our national requirements. Of course asylum seekers are a completely different issue and should be treated differently.

You pointed out the Tories don't want high immigration, well they do and are placing smoke and mirrors up to make out they are ‘trying’ but it's ‘complicated’ it isn't. We don't need huge numbers of unskilled workers to pack meat in factories flooding the market with this labour pushes wages down, back it up with equal opportunities think tanks, looking for prejudice where is does not exist and you again pump the smoke and mirrors into the situation. The irony is they are doing this then they reach the ‘cap' and literally stop the NHS importing a skilled Dr’s, I would give details about this DR and quote how I know but I need to be careful what I say on an open forum.

Unfortunately I'm not the PM I don't have all the magic answers, I don't believe the Conservatives will provide the type of change we need, but as Paul pointed out a meaningful Brexit will greatly reduce the government's ability to use smoke and mirrors to divert attention away from the what they want are are actually doing, they can't falsely blame the EU when we are not in it.
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paul514
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Firstly I wish I say great debate from both
@ByEeek and @paul514. To be honest with you it is refreshing to see good sensible debate on this subject without petty name calling anywhere nevermind an open Internet forum.

I’ll try to answer you're question but largely I agree with Paul but not totally. So what would I do?
I would change the laws and regulations of whom can enter the country, I'd completely overhaul the policies set up by new Labour and removed the damaging and disastrous immigration cap the Conservatives have implemented. My system would be a point system, if an employer wanted to employ anyone in a skilled role whom has advertised unsuccessful within the UK that person would automatically be granted UK citizenship, short of that migrants would be scored on their skills vs our national requirements. Of course asylum seekers are a completely different issue and should be treated differently.

You pointed out the Tories don't want high immigration, well they do and are placing smoke and mirrors up to make out they are ‘trying’ but it's ‘complicated’ it isn't. We don't need huge numbers of unskilled workers to pack meat in factories flooding the market with this labour pushes wages down, back it up with equal opportunities think tanks, looking for prejudice where is does not exist and you again pump the smoke and mirrors into the situation. The irony is they are doing this then they reach the ‘cap' and literally stop the NHS importing a skilled Dr’s, I would give details about this DR and quote how I know but I need to be careful what I say on an open forum.

Unfortunately I'm not the PM I don't have all the magic answers, I don't believe the Conservatives will provide the type of change we need, but as Paul pointed out a meaningful Brexit will greatly reduce the government's ability to use smoke and mirrors to divert attention away from the what they want are are actually doing, they can't falsely blame the EU when we are not in it.
I’d go further than advertising here first then off to getting an immigrant, there would have to be a mechanism to train a person to do that role
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Vinny C
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#64
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#64
(Original post by paul514)
I’d go further than advertising here first then off to getting an immigrant, there would have to be a mechanism to train a person to do that role
Burton Bridge and Paul... great debate from both of the ERG. All we need is Colin Dent to make it quorate. No doubt they will blame bad negotiation... as was demanded by the extreme right group. No doubt they will huff and puff the 'will of the people' even if terrified to double check. No doubt anyone who questions them will be branded undemocratic scum and swept under the carpet.
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Vinny C
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#65
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(Original post by paul514)
It doesn’t need to be compared to pre EU days and no one is saying that.

One can simply look at what was going on 20 years ago to see the difference without going back 50 years.

It isn’t to do with wealth more people come from outside the Eu because we let them. They can’t come if we don’t it’s as simple as that.

As for what’s changed in that 20 year period inside the EU it’s simple the easy The old soviet block countries joined at the start of the new century.

This really isn’t rocket science.

People on my side of the fence say.... train people who already live here and pay people more if your job is less appealing.

You don’t need 600,000 people coming in per year if you do that.
Also told you have me on ignore... just as you have the British public.
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Burton Bridge
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#66
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#66
(Original post by paul514)
I’d go further than advertising here first then off to getting an immigrant, there would have to be a mechanism to train a person to do that role
While I don't disagree with you if you are saying that meaningful training for young people needs to be reintroduced, rather than just academia or pseudo vocational workplace based courses which are clearly not working?

I believe training to be separate issue to migration, if we reintroduced or enforced real apprenticeships from today, it would take over a decade for the results to show, in the short term those skills will need to be imported. This imported skill can be used for training to make our children's lives better and debt free.

Unfortunately we both know this is not what our current Government wishes to do mind you.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 week ago
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Burton Bridge
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Vinny C)
Burton Bridge and Paul... great debate from both of the ERG. All we need is Colin Dent to make it quorate. No doubt they will blame bad negotiation... as was demanded by the extreme right group. No doubt they will huff and puff the 'will of the people' even if terrified to double check. No doubt anyone who questions them will be branded undemocratic scum and swept under the carpet.
Yes mate, brilliant content as always :fight:
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paul514
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#68
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#68
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
While I don't disagree with you if you are saying that meaningful training for young people needs to be reintroduced, rather than just academia or pseudo vocational workplace based courses which are clearly not working?

I believe training to be separate issue to migration, if we reintroduced or enforced real apprenticeships from today, it would take over a decade for the results to show, in the short term those skills will need to be imported. This imported skill can be used for training to make our children's lives better and debt free.

Unfortunately we both know this is not what our current Government wishes to do mind you.
They will be forced to eventually even if they don’t want to.
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Burton Bridge
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#69
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#69
(Original post by paul514)
They will be forced to eventually even if they don’t want to.
Only if we get a meaningful Brexit, in my personal opinion the working class left of center remainers who are currently campaigning for no Brexit or a Brexit in name only scenario are completely missing this inportant point which disproportionately effects the poorest demographics of the country.

Ill say if we get a meaningful Brexit hopefully you will be correct, it's one such reason I voted leave.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 week ago
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Miss Maddie
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#70
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#70
Negligible effects. There's a great big beautiful tomorrow shining at the end of everyday. There's a great big beautiful tomorrow and tomorrow's just a dream away
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ByEeek
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#71
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#71
(Original post by paul514)
People on my side of the fence say.... train people who already live here and pay people more if your job is less appealing.
Completely agreed. So why are we spending so many billions on Brexit (3000 civil servants and counting so far) when we could spend that money on training and education?

But the caviat is that companies won't / can't pay more if they can't cover their costs when selling into a global market.

Neither of these issues has anything to do with Brexit or immigration for that matter. We choose how much to spend on education and training and we choose how much the minimum wage is. Leaving Europe isn't going to solve anything. What it is going to do is put a squeeze on businesses trying to recruit. No longer able to recruit from abroad, businesses will be left with few choices and none of them particularly positive. In a service economy like ours, people are the primary input into service businesses and if the people aren't there, the business dries up - just as steel production dried up with the mineral reserves that fed it.
Last edited by ByEeek; 1 week ago
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paul514
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#72
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#72
(Original post by ByEeek)
Completely agreed. So why are we spending so many billions on Brexit (3000 civil servants and counting so far) when we could spend that money on training and education?

But the caviat is that companies won't / can't pay more if they can't cover their costs when selling into a global market.

Neither of these issues has anything to do with Brexit or immigration for that matter. We choose how much to spend on education and training and we choose how much the minimum wage is. Leaving Europe isn't going to solve anything. What it is going to do is put a squeeze on businesses trying to recruit. No longer able to recruit from abroad, businesses will be left with few choices and none of them particularly positive. In a service economy like ours, people are the primary input into service businesses and if the people aren't there, the business dries up - just as steel production dried up with the mineral reserves that fed it.
But that’s the thing leaving the EU stops free movement. So it does do something in this regard aside from all the other reasons I want to leave.

A company that can’t pay the wage needed for a decent life or to train someone to carry out a role for them doesn’t sound like a worthwhile business to protect whilst harming citizens.
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Burton Bridge
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#73
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#73
(Original post by ByEeek)
Completely agreed. So why are we spending so many billions on Brexit (3000 civil servants and counting so far) when we could spend that money on training and education?
Because the government does not want too, it believes in a free market economy and corporate freedom.

Adding to this or as a result of this, the public have chosen for various reasons to leave the EU, the public have lost faith in the two main parties of the country. The party whom was looked at as the alternative got into bed with the tories so the public are demanding change and the only way to make the reluctant political elite do this is to demand change.

(Original post by ByEeek)
But the caviat is that companies won't / can't pay more if they can't cover their costs when selling into a global market.
Sorry I'm not sure what you mean?

(Original post by ByEeek)
Neither of these issues has anything to do with Brexit or immigration for that matter. We choose how much to spend on education and training and we choose how much the minimum wage is. Leaving Europe isn't going to solve anything. What it is going to do is put a squeeze on businesses trying to recruit. No longer able to recruit from abroad, businesses will be left with few choices and none of them particularly positive. In a service economy like ours, people are the primary input into service businesses and if the people aren't there, the business dries up - just as steel production dried up with the mineral reserves that fed it.
OK firstly service industries don't make any money, they are secondary tax consumers we need to start manufacturing again so that needs to change and it must change if we are ever going to make a successful debt free country for our children's children.
Secondly, you may well be right that these things have little to do with the EU and are certainly correct we choose how much to spend on education and training, however the government does not wish to change this, nor does the EU. So how do you propose the electorate should make our politicians change?

Thats where we agree, we are making progress mate however I'm struggling to understand why you think leaving the EU will hurt businesses trying to recruit? You said they will no longer able to recruit from abroad, why do you think this? And you also said, Businesses will be left with few choices and none of them particularly positive. Can you explain why please?
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ByEeek
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#74
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#74
(Original post by paul514)
A company that can’t pay the wage needed for a decent life or to train someone to carry out a role for them doesn’t sound like a worthwhile business to protect whilst harming citizens.
Perhaps. But we don't live in a bubble. If a company in the UK can't afford to pay decent wages, you can bet your bottom dollar a company elsewhere is. So it is a balance. If no company can pay decent wages, there is no economy. Where do you draw the line? On the one hand you want jobs and the taxes that they pay. But on the other hand your saying you want more pay. And when you have more pay, inflation goes up, prices go up and you are back to square one. That is why it costs £10 for a pint in Sweeden. High standard of living. High prices. Are they better off than us? And then you go to India where people get paid a pitance, but you can eat like a king for a few dollars a day. Who is better off?
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ByEeek
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#75
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#75
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Sorry I'm not sure what you mean?
Really? Profit = revenue - costs. If costs are high, you don't make any money and you go out of business. It is all rather basic stuff. Paying your staff is often your biggest cost especially in our service rich economy.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
OK firstly service industries don't make any money, they are secondary tax consumers we need to start manufacturing again so that needs to change and it must change if we are ever going to make a successful debt free country for our children's children.
A couple of things. Firstly, we do manufacture stuff. Loads of it. We manufacture more stuff now by value than at any time in history. Except the things we manufacture are high value, high tech items. We forget that the word labour force comes from the fact that in yesteryear industry was literally built on physical labour. Men physically shovelled coat into furnaces or steam engines. Men physically carried products on and off ships. That will never happen again. We have robots and automation and precision tooling. And that is a good thing. The idea that we should go back to the days where men hammered bits of metal all day is ridiculous. And you are right, the service sector doesn't make money. But then neither does manufacturing. If we are going down that hole, only digging resources out of the ground makes money. But you are thinking of Britain as a bubble. It is not. Our service economy services the world. Mining companies and factories around the would need access to financing - we do that. They also need insurance - we do that too. And increasingly, they require software to run their machinary - we do that as well. And so on and so on. And all of thoses companies need accountants and sandwich shops and hair salons and so on. All indirectly servicing companies that dig stuff out of the ground. What we have is fine. It is better than manufacturing. Are you really saying that sitting in an office is worse than labouring in a factory where you would go deaf, or get killed, or mamed by machinary? You do know what life expectancy was during the industrial revolution don't you?
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paul514
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#76
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#76
(Original post by ByEeek)
Perhaps. But we don't live in a bubble. If a company in the UK can't afford to pay decent wages, you can bet your bottom dollar a company elsewhere is. So it is a balance. If no company can pay decent wages, there is no economy. Where do you draw the line? On the one hand you want jobs and the taxes that they pay. But on the other hand your saying you want more pay. And when you have more pay, inflation goes up, prices go up and you are back to square one. That is why it costs £10 for a pint in Sweeden. High standard of living. High prices. Are they better off than us? And then you go to India where people get paid a pitance, but you can eat like a king for a few dollars a day. Who is better off?
I draw the line where I stated it should be, if they can't pay a decent wage and train their employees if need be then it isn't worth protecting.

As for your line on prices going up, I accept that. What you need to accept is the people whos wages go up are effected more by the payrise than the rise in prices. Its the people with less of a rise of wages than prices that is effected negatively aka the people doing well already.

As for a pint costing a tenner I doubt that is to do with training and paying a decent wage.
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paul514
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#77
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#77
(Original post by ByEeek)
A couple of things. Firstly, we do manufacture stuff. Loads of it. We manufacture more stuff now by value than at any time in history. Except the things we manufacture are high value, high tech items. We forget that the word labour force comes from the fact that in yesteryear industry was literally built on physical labour. Men physically shovelled coat into furnaces or steam engines. Men physically carried products on and off ships. That will never happen again. We have robots and automation and precision tooling. And that is a good thing. The idea that we should go back to the days where men hammered bits of metal all day is ridiculous. And you are right, the service sector doesn't make money. But then neither does manufacturing. If we are going down that hole, only digging resources out of the ground makes money. But you are thinking of Britain as a bubble. It is not. Our service economy services the world. Mining companies and factories around the would need access to financing - we do that. They also need insurance - we do that too. And increasingly, they require software to run their machinary - we do that as well. And so on and so on. And all of thoses companies need accountants and sandwich shops and hair salons and so on. All indirectly servicing companies that dig stuff out of the ground. What we have is fine. It is better than manufacturing. Are you really saying that sitting in an office is worse than labouring in a factory where you would go deaf, or get killed, or mamed by machinary? You do know what life expectancy was during the industrial revolution don't you?
Manufacturing does make money, it takes materials adds labour and ships a product for a higher price.

It creates something tangible for export.

I take your point on low end manufacturing, there is no point in trying to compete for those roles.

If we cite steel for a moment we don’t really make regular steel but high grade stuff as a small example.
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Burton Bridge
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#78
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Perhaps. But we don't live in a bubble. If a company in the UK can't afford to pay decent wages, you can bet your bottom dollar a company elsewhere is. So it is a balance. If no company can pay decent wages, there is no economy. Where do you draw the line? On the one hand you want jobs and the taxes that they pay. But on the other hand your saying you want more pay. And when you have more pay, inflation goes up, prices go up and you are back to square one. That is why it costs £10 for a pint in Sweeden. High standard of living. High prices. Are they better off than us? And then you go to India where people get paid a pitance, but you can eat like a king for a few dollars a day. Who is better off?
That's the capitalist version of events that the right wing have pushed on to the working class to make them believe that by looking after the system that benifits them the most, it will benifit us the most. The truth is very different, gap between the richest and poorest grows faster in unregulated capitalist economies
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DJKL
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#79
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
That's the capitalist version of events that the right wing have pushed on to the working class to make them believe that by looking after the system that benifits them the most, it will benifit us the most. The truth is very different, gap between the richest and poorest grows faster in unregulated capitalist economies
It may do, but the absolute living standards of those at the bottom also increase so overall standards of living increase, but the rate of growth is now sluggish and will remain sluggish.

There is no free lunch here, the world got really small very quickly and our comparative advantage re access to capital and know how has shrunk, the rest of the world can now stand toe to toe and slug it out economically with the developed West and given cheaper labour win the contest, no amount of wishful thinking re wages rates etc will buck that trend, no alternative systems will change this, this will be the 21st century story.

When the UK can produce T Shirts here and sell them into say India on similar price and quality points to those made in India you will have a totally level playing field, until that time those in lower paid work in the UK will struggle against global markets.

The big secret has always been to not do low paid work, to use education to enable higher value added outputs, but with AI now looming even that path is likely to get more difficult.

The reality is the West had a good run and has binged on world output, we will now pay the price for the next 40-60-80-100 odd years until societies around the world are more equal, until then expect slow increases in living standards at the botom of the ladder and some real nasty suffering in the middle of the ladder as that sector (to be gradually replaced by AI) gets squeezed.

These are nor UK issues they are world issues, Brexit merely tilts at the wrong windmill because it is the nearest windmill, Trump is a reflection of similar re the US, in effect, for the West, Winter is coming.
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ByEeek
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#80
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Manufacturing does make money, it takes materials adds labour and ships a product for a higher price.

It creates something tangible for export.

I take your point on low end manufacturing, there is no point in trying to compete for those roles.

If we cite steel for a moment we don’t really make regular steel but high grade stuff as a small example.
Of course. But it only makes money because the primary industry is there to supply it with raw materials that it can add value to. But if you take that argument forward, tertiary or service industry also makes money. Except their added value is the skills and specialist knowledge provided by service companies. In one of your other posts you suggested that companies should train their own staff. Except it isn't economical to do so. Companies are specialists in what they do. Training is in itself a specialist skill. I have just spend 2.5 years training to be a teacher having been a software developer. As a former developer I could never have trained people up to be software developers. It is a completely different skill set. And if I did train people up, I would become a pure cost to the business and would not be earning money through my software development.

So the idea that companies should just "do the right thing" is laughable. Under your system of forcing companies to pay a decent wage, you would just see mass unemployment and a slow down in economic activity. You get the same thing happen if you put up taxes to pay for social wealfare.
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