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Original post by University of Huddersfield Guest Lecturer
Who does not love guinea pigs?

Noone sensible :giggle:
Students at University of Huddersfield
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Original post by She-Ra
I LOVE Instagram.... but how they mess around with the algorithms really frustrates me. I've been "shuffled" and it drives me nuts! All of a sudden I stop seeing the posts I really want to see. For me, it's a community building tool, so it's very important that posts from people I follow are visible to me.

Facebook and Instagram do know a lot about me, but from an information point of view this is generally pretty helpful. I also have no problem with saying I don't want to see certain ads any more. Amazon often recommends me books that I don't know I want and then when I see them I WANT ALL OF THEM! My bookshelf can't take much more.... it's the same with Netflix.... the more we watch the more intuitive it becomes. There is essentially no privacy anymore is there? But in a way it makes life a little easier.

The only thing I think is a huge issue is the echo chamber mentality Facebook creates.

i.e voting remain in the EU referendum, I was clearly always going to vote this way and that would have been clear (based on the news I clicked on FB) - so all I saw was remain content and leave content that made "leave voters" look a certain way. When the outcome was announced every post I saw on FB was "I don't get it, everyone on here voted the same way as me so how did this happen"? Well, if all those on the fence/ wanting to leave see only pro-leave content, over time this is potentially going to strongly influence their voting behaviour?

So with that example in mind it does worry me... because people don't have to pick up a newspaper anymore or even watch the news.... a new wave of "propaganda" is essentially being streamed to them and we don't know what this is or where it's coming from? And are they even conscious that this is what is happening? This is powerful stuff and ultimately it freaks me out and in the wrong hands could be very dangerous.

The echo chamber phenomenon is a really interesting thought and I really think it is a problem. Unfortunately little research has been done on this but surrounding yourself with people who have familiar thoughts and views to yourself is not really healthy. The analytical processes need to be designed better. However, as you point out there is a balance, between what you want to see and what you dont want to see. There is an argument that most of the social media companies are still very young and as they mature they will understand our thinking much better.
Original post by University of Huddersfield Guest Lecturer
There is an argument that most of the social media companies are still very young and as they mature they will understand our thinking much better.


The cynic in me reads this and thinks..... they haven't uncovered the full extent of their power yet! :colone:

The thing is that what they do will be largely unregulated? No one else viability of their algorithms or how they serve information, and if someone is giving them a back-hander to feed certain information to certain audiences, so in the wrong hands it could create be highly influential.... I don't mean to get all "Black Mirror" but it's a pretty overwhelming thought.
Original post by Paracosm
I think that social media is one of the most amazing, yet contradictory, things online these days. To the public, it's a way to connect with your friends and family, to view current news and trends and remain informed. To businesses, it's an influencing tool where you can connect likeminded people and use advanced marketing algorithms to target your products or services to them. To social networks, it's a massive data mining tool that creates billions of dollars worth of income, with an immeasurable amount of harvestable data which they can use to further themselves and generate tools which the public would eventually depend on, creating a market in which the users of said social networks are locked in without escape.

For example, creating a culture where you can only sign up to events on Facebook, follow a Twitter handle for updates on a story you're following or only speak to certain distant family members via Facebook because picking up the phone and calling them is too expensive. All people do this without Facebook or other social networks ever telling them to, it's just intrinsic to people now. We're all locked in, no matter who we are. Big data culture only worsens over time and essentially all we are to bigger companies is interesting data points in some big spreadsheet/database export somewhere. Tools like Facebook and Twitter are no longer simply social tools, for a lot of people they're an essential service which they depend heavily on. Pretty sobering to think about.

Social media serves a useful purpose and an even more useful purpose to those that own them. The question is, how can we be sure the data entrusted to these companies is used ethically and when you hand over your data so willingly, do you have the right to be so precious about it in the first place? :dontknow:

Totally agree with this. Most companies view their customers as data points to be analysed for trends and patterns. What I have found surprising is the figures on the poll at the top of this thread. It seems that 55% of respondents are not to worried about the amounts of data that is collected, can we then make the assumption that people are not worried about how this data is utilised? :hmmmm: Gives social media companies a lot of autonomy to mine, store and manipulate data.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by University of Huddersfield Guest Lecturer
Totally agree with this. Most companies view their customers as data points to be analysed for trends and patterns. What I have found surprising is the figures on the poll at the top of this thread. It seems that 55% of respondents are not to worried about the amounts of data that is collected, can we then make the assumption that people are not worried about how this data is utilised? :hmmmm: Gives social media companies a lot of autonomy to mine, store and manipulate data.


I think this is most concerning. Many habitual social media users simply have no idea what they have given companies like Facebook, Twitter, Google etc. permission to actually do with their data. Ignorance is one thing, but some people ARE aware and don't care - this is particularly more frightening. I think many people simply do not know what their data is used for, if social media (and Internet companies) companies were required to declare what was done with the data in a transparent fashion... I think things would be very different...
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by University of Huddersfield Guest Lecturer
Totally agree with this. To most companies we are data points to be analysed for trends and patterns. What I have found surprising is the figures on the poll at the top of this thread. It seems that 55% of respondents are not to worried about the amounts of data that is collected, can we then make the assumption that people are not worried about how this data is utilised? :hmmmm: Gives social media companies a lot of autonomy to mine, store and manipulate data.

Most data used by these companies and sent to third parties is anonymised, just figures on a spreadsheet if you will. There is little reason to worry that your data is being used for some nefarious reasons.

Even with the CA scandal I wasn't too worried because it is incredibly naive to use social media as your main news source, it is best to use a range of actual news sources that give a far more balanced view on the subject.

No amount legislation can stop people willingly living in a self made echo chamber.
Original post by tazarooni89
It's true that these platforms are collecting lots of data on us. For example, they've seen a few photos from my last holiday. But surely that can't compete with my parents, who were actually there on that holiday with me (or would have seen most of the same photos even if they weren't). Facebook knows what kinds of restaurants I've checked into recently, and maybe even has a photo of the food I ate. My mother on the other hand, has cooked almost every meal I've eaten for the first 18 years of my life. Similarly with the comments I make on people's posts; they provide nowhere near as much insight into my personality as the actual things I'm saying and doing in real life on a daily basis, which my parents are very much witness to.

The information that social media companies collect on me can certainly be very useful for marketing and advertising purposes. But my activities on their platforms are still just a tiny fraction of what I'm actually doing with all my time. And even then, it isn't a representative sample; they only know about the things that I wish to display to the public, not what goes on in my own home behind closed doors. They know about how happy I am when I graduate from university, but not about how awful I feel when I fail an exam. They know about the fancy new car I bought, but not about the fact that I had a serious accident in it. They know who all my friends are, but they don't know who any of my enemies are. You get the idea.

Unless Instagram and Facebook are your outlets for expressing yourself in a way that your parents wouldn't approve of, housing a side of you that you actively keep hidden from them, I think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that their algorithms "know you better than your parents".

A really well thought out and clear post. Thank you for your contribution to this thread. I think your view of different data points is a really pertinent one, there is a separation between what our parents know and what Social Medai (SM) companies know about us. The difference between quantiative and qualitative data will always be challenging and SM companies may know "why you're buying something" but not "why you are buying it". That extra question may require a different data point.

I think moving forward where things will get interesting is the amalgamtion of data between online and offline data collection points. So for example the continued use of the echo, smart watches, internet connected TVs, etc, will start to supplement online data. Companies such as google for example are starting to venture into this field with the andorid operating system being embedded in multiple devices (watches, cars, etc). What is becoming apparent is that data is essential for any forward looking business, problems seem to stem from actually analysing and making decisions on the data, this in many scenarios is still human driven.
Original post by She-Ra
The cynic in me reads this and thinks..... they haven't uncovered the full extent of their power yet! :colone:

The thing is that what they do will be largely unregulated? No one else viability of their algorithms or how they serve information, and if someone is giving them a back-hander to feed certain information to certain audiences, so in the wrong hands it could create be highly influential.... I don't mean to get all "Black Mirror" but it's a pretty overwhelming thought.

The cynic in you has hit the nail on the head in my view. The amount of data being collected and how it can be used to leverage influence is a scary prospect. You could argue, if reports are to be believed that it has allready been used to influence the US presidential race and Brexit! The job for governments in scenarios such as this is to make sure legislation is there to protect its citizens, lets hope GDPR and to a certain extent public pressure keeps the social media companies "ethical".
I agree 100% with your assessment Doctor. I always advise my friends against using online platforms like facebook, twitter and even giving real details about themselves when they setup their email accounts. I use a VPN on my laptop. That kind of adds a layer of protection that kind of makes me feel a little safer online. I never give any personal details about myself. I am very conscious of everything that I do online because I know that this information can be very easily stolen, lost and abused with little or no consequence for those who steal, loose and abuse this information.

The internet is a largely under regulated platform where the consumer has little or no rights. Having a blasé attitude about our personal information and activities on such a platform is an invitation for disaster. We need to protect ourselves by ourselves. Sadly, the government here in the UK allows companies to get away with abusing private information about their users, with little or no consequence. Our only recourse for justice as consumers, when things do go wrong, is the Information Commissioner's Office and the reviews for this regulator are testament to how hopeless they are:

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/ico.org.uk

Well, we do have the option of taking these companies to court, but who can afford to pay the extortionate fees charged by solicitors and then going up against companies that have hundreds of millions of pounds at their disposal to defend themselves in court using law firms that employ hundreds of lawyers. The odds are stacked in their favour. It's just wise to avoid having a blasé attitude about our personal details online (even offline I would say) to prevent problems from occurring.
(edited 5 years ago)
Reply 29
Instagram knows that I have dogs and might drink too much. By my 'like's it'll know that I like weird guitars, dogs, and goth birds in leather. My Mam and Dad know that and much more. But the broader point -- as illustrative of how much data companies now hold on us -- is well taken.
Original post by University of Huddersfield Guest Lecturer
The echo chamber phenomenon is a really interesting thought and I really think it is a problem. Unfortunately little research has been done on this but surrounding yourself with people who have familiar thoughts and views to yourself is not really healthy. The analytical processes need to be designed better. However, as you point out there is a balance, between what you want to see and what you dont want to see. There is an argument that most of the social media companies are still very young and as they mature they will understand our thinking much better.


Original post by She-Ra
The cynic in me reads this and thinks..... they haven't uncovered the full extent of their power yet! :colone:

The thing is that what they do will be largely unregulated? No one else viability of their algorithms or how they serve information, and if someone is giving them a back-hander to feed certain information to certain audiences, so in the wrong hands it could create be highly influential.... I don't mean to get all "Black Mirror" but it's a pretty overwhelming thought.


Part of that responsibility is on the user though imho. I always look up conflicting opinions whether that be news articles, i will read the same story on the guardian and the DM just out of interest, youtube videos from right or left wing people so stuff that is recommended to me is stuff that i dont necessarily agree with but is thoughtprovoking.
Original post by CoolCavy
Part of that responsibility is on the user though imho. I always look up conflicting opinions whether that be news articles, i will read the same story on the guardian and the DM just out of interest, youtube videos from right or left wing people so stuff that is recommended to me is stuff that i dont necessarily agree with but is thoughtprovoking.

That's you gaming the algorithm tho. If you, say, don;t use youtube for much political stuff but then watch one single Ben Shapiro video on abortion, the recommended tends to lead you down a rabbit hole of weird right wing conservative content that's difficult to get out of unless you deliberately go out of ur way to search for some more liberal stuff.

Is the average not-that-political person going to bother to do such? And then should they really have to?
Original post by Retired_Messiah
That's you gaming the algorithm tho. If you, say, don;t use youtube for much political stuff but then watch one single Ben Shapiro video on abortion, the recommended tends to lead you down a rabbit hole of weird right wing conservative content that's difficult to get out of unless you deliberately go out of ur way to search for some more liberal stuff.

Is the average not-that-political person going to bother to do such? And then should they really have to?

Im not even political though, I just like things that make me think and form my own opinions
And yes I think they should ideally, it's common sense to get your news etc from more than one source
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by CoolCavy
Im not even political though, I just like things that make me think and form my own opinions

mmm I've been using political as a catch-all word now cause people on the internet think every moral dilemma is a political statement for some reason.

could just replace that bit of my post with "not-that-bothered" I guess...?
Reply 34
in reality, millions of people use social media. even if your whole life is on there, what are they going to do with it? no one at facebook is going to single you out and spread all your data everywhere, are they? they're trying to make their apps benefit and suit you. people going into hysteria over topics like this is funny.

i really couldnt care less that facebook is telling marketing companies that i like dogs or what my favorite colour is. hardly violating my safety. stop whining.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by eez
in reality, millions of people use social media. even if your whole life is on there, what are they going to do with it? no one at facebook is going to single you out and spread all your data everywhere, are they? they're trying to make their apps benefit and suit you. people going into hysteria over topics like this is funny.

Yeh exactly, I've got my laptop webcam covered so as long as they aren't recording me I don't care.
We aren't special or unique noone cares what time you go to uni or when you go to bed. Even if people have that data on me I couldn't care less , am too uninteresting and not a terrorist so idk what I have to worry about.
Reply 36
Original post by CoolCavy
Yeh exactly, I've got my laptop webcam covered so as long as they aren't recording me I don't care.
We aren't special or unique noone cares what time you go to uni or when you go to bed. Even if people have that data on me I couldn't care less , am too uninteresting and not a terrorist so idk what I have to worry about.

i really dont think social media companies have any malicious intent. they're free services and they're forced to operate under strict laws and are forced to give up profits because someones dad doesnt understand how targeting advertising works.
Not really. I really like my privacy, and usually use fake names on social medias. My facebook uses a pseudonym for example, and I don't upload anything to Instagram and don't even give a name on it.
Original post by CoolCavy
Part of that responsibility is on the user though imho. I always look up conflicting opinions whether that be news articles, i will read the same story on the guardian and the DM just out of interest, youtube videos from right or left wing people so stuff that is recommended to me is stuff that i dont necessarily agree with but is thoughtprovoking.


Unfortunately I don't think we can rely on others to do the research. People will literally die for their beliefs - history proves that. If you're being fed information on the same wavelength constantly you're essentially being brainwashed, why would you question it?
Original post by Pinkisk
I agree 100% with your assessment Doctor. I always advise my friends against using online platforms like facebook, twitter and even giving real details about themselves when they setup their email accounts. I use a VPN on my laptop. That kind of adds a layer of protection that kind of makes me feel a little safer online. I never give any personal details about myself. I am very conscious of everything that I do online because I know that this information can be very easily stolen, lost and abused with little or no consequence for those who steal, loose and abuse this information.

The internet is a largely under regulated platform where the consumer has little or no rights. Having a blasé attitude about our personal information and activities on such a platform is an invitation for disaster. We need to protect ourselves by ourselves. Sadly, the government here in the UK allows companies to get away with abusing private information about their users, with little or no consequence. Our only recourse for justice as consumers, when things do go wrong, is the Information Commissioner's Office and the reviews for this regulator are testament to how hopeless they are:

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/ico.org.uk

Well, we do have the option of taking these companies to court, but who can afford to pay the extortionate fees charged by solicitors and then going up against companies that have hundreds of millions of pounds at their disposal to defend themselves in court using law firms that employ hundreds of lawyers. The odds are stacked in their favour. It's just wise to avoid having a blasé attitude about our personal details online (even offline I would say) to prevent problems from occurring.

Agree with this, there does seem to be a blaise attitude with some sections of society. However, some research does suggest that this is such a new aspect that we actually dont know the ethical implications as we have not really come across them. The world will be an interesting space in the next few years, analytics will govern everything we do!