Venezuela Watch

Burton Bridge
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Just my opinion)
Socialism Shmocialism.
Tarnishing all socialism and socialist movement with this one train wreck of a country holds no water, its like tarnishing capitism by creating a comparison with a bad capitalist country like Kazakhstan for example.

I can't help but think the fixation with this country is politically driven to tarnish socialism in the UK under Corbyn. Why don't we focus on the UKs socialist movement, could it be because it worked by any chance?
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 2 weeks ago
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ap.ferro
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#22
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#22
Can you imagine if corbyn said he won the last election even though he didn't? There would be an outcry. Why isn't there an outcry that Guadiuo is declaring himself leader? The US wants Venezuela as a puppet state, for the oil of course
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Quady
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
There is a once-proud country in the world where chaos now rules. A wholly corrupt and self-serving government held a bogus national vote which was hopelessly distorted by lies, external manipulation and illegal acts. That government obstinately refuses to leave office and persists in mad and dangerous acts and in defending the indefensible. The people face imminent collapse and the rest of the world are clamouring for them to return to the path of rationality and get rid of the appalling junta now in charge. Some even talk of civil war, the military on the streets, epidemics and famine.

That's just Britain. You should see Venezuela.
It went downhill for Venezuela after Brexit. Went very wrong for them since then.
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username4477046
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#24
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#24
Venezuela is going to be the Americans Ukraine. Geopolitics is going to get messy. Russia is sending military there. On the news they sent nuclear bombers Tu-160 to Venezuela
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Pinkisk
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Libtardian)
Seems like the OP just hates democracy when it gives results which he/she doesn't like.
What's happening in Venezula has nothing to do with democracy. The US is, I think, resorting to its trusted Iraq method to cause a coupe in Venezuela as to replace the Venezuelan government, which does not favour its interests, with one that does. This trusted method is as follows:

Impose sanctions,
Cripple the economy,
Starve the people to death,
Wait for the people to become agitated and demand change,
Send in agitators to agitate the people against the government.
Make sure your media blames the government for the money problems, which you caused through your sanctions.
Wait for people to cause a coupe.
If this fails send in the US army to remove the government to 'save the people' whom you starved with your sanctions....
Replace the government with ones that are pro-American not before, of course, denationalising all the material wealth of the country and selling it to American companies.
Profit.
Move on to the next country!
Last edited by Pinkisk; 2 weeks ago
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Andrew97
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Pinkisk)
What's happening in Venezula has nothing to do with democracy. The US is, I think, resorting to its trusted Iraq method to cause a coupe in Venezuela as to replace the Venezuelan government, which does not favour its interests, with one that does. This trusted method is as follows:

Impose sanctions,
Cripple the economy,
Starve the people to death,
Wait for the people to become agitated and demand change,
Send in agitators to agitate the people against the government.
Make sure your media blames the government for the money problems, which you caused through your sanctions.
Wait for people to cause a coupe.
If this fails send in the US army to remove the government to 'save the people' whom you starved with your sanctions....
Replace the government with ones that are pro-American not before, of course, denationalising all the material wealth of the country and selling it to American companies.
Profit.
Move on to the next country!
Sanctions only really started last week. Not the Americans fault Venezuela can’t manage their economy.
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Fullofsurprises
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Pinkisk)
What's happening in Venezula has nothing to do with democracy. The US is, I think, resorting to its trusted Iraq method to cause a coupe in Venezuela as to replace the Venezuelan government, which does not favour its interests, with one that does. This trusted method is as follows:

Impose sanctions,
Cripple the economy,
Starve the people to death,
Wait for the people to become agitated and demand change,
Send in agitators to agitate the people against the government.
Make sure your media blames the government for the money problems, which you caused through your sanctions.
Wait for people to cause a coupe.
If this fails send in the US army to remove the government to 'save the people' whom you starved with your sanctions....
Replace the government with ones that are pro-American not before, of course, denationalising all the material wealth of the country and selling it to American companies.
Profit.
Move on to the next country!
:yep:

It's quite a curse these days for a country to have oil, unless you are white and European like Norway. If you don't hand over your #1 resource to the oil multinationals and give them carte blance to take your profits and ruin your landscapes, you will be dealt with harshly, eventually.
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Fullofsurprises
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Andrew97)
Sanctions only really started last week. Not the Americans fault Venezuela can’t manage their economy.
US interference didn't start last week. It started about 150 years ago. Also, whilst they didn't impose oil sanctions until recently, there have been long running US sanctions against things like weapons sales to the Chavez (and now Maduro) governments. That isn't a bad thing necessarily, but technically. However, the real difficulties in the country under the recent governments started when there was a big strike in the main state oil company, to which Chavez reacted badly, clamping down on various freedoms and dishing out large subsidies which turned ugly when oil prices fell. That strike was manipulated by the US against a background of a failed coup against Chavez and anger from the oil industry against him, particularly because Chavez tried to reintroduce OPEC price hikes, which was unacceptable to the US.
https://ips-dc.org/oil_and_venezuelas_failed_coup/

Chavez dealt badly with these issues, but his government was heavily pressured from abroad and he was basically just trying to channel oil profits more towards the people and away from the rich in Venezuela and the oil multinationals.
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Pinkisk
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Andrew97)
Sanctions only really started last week. Not the Americans fault Venezuela can’t manage their economy.
Andrewww!! sanctions have been in place on Venezuela since 2015, since Obama!!!! The US has been waging an economic war on Venezuela for many years now alongside its allies, countries like Saudi Arabia, which in 2014 flooded the market with cheap oil in a decision coordinated together with the US that drove oil prices down and crippled countries who's economies depend on oil like Venezuela and Iran. I mean oil prices reached like 30 dollars a barrel in 2016. Thats insane. I mean, one barrel of oil, thats 160 litres, I think, was selling for $30. Thats freakin 18cents a litre. Thats freaking like 300% cheaper than water!!! Is that not a freaking crazy price for a finite resource thats projected to run out within the next like 50 years?
Last edited by Pinkisk; 2 weeks ago
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Andrew97
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
US interference didn't start last week. It started about 150 years ago. Also, whilst they didn't impose oil sanctions until recently, there have been long running US sanctions against things like weapons sales to the Chavez (and now Maduro) governments. That isn't a bad thing necessarily, but technically. However, the real difficulties in the country under the recent governments started when there was a big strike in the main state oil company, to which Chavez reacted badly, clamping down on various freedoms and dishing out large subsidies which turned ugly when oil prices fell. That strike was manipulated by the US against a background of a failed coup against Chavez and anger from the oil industry against him, particularly because Chavez tried to reintroduce OPEC price hikes, which was unacceptable to the US.
https://ips-dc.org/oil_and_venezuelas_failed_coup/

Chavez dealt badly with these issues, but his government was heavily pressured from abroad and he was basically just trying to channel oil profits more towards the people and away from the rich in Venezuela and the oil multinationals.
Started 150 years ago. No it didn’t.

never thought I’d see a lefty advocate arms sales. Interesting. The rest is clearly a pile of crap.


the fact that you are comparing a shithole where a wheelbarrow of money can’t even buy a pint of milk to the U.K. is stupid.
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Andrew97
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Pinkisk)
Andrewww!! sanctions have been in place on Venezuela since 2015, since Obama!!!! The US has been waging an economic war on Venezuela for many years now alongside its allies, countries like Saudi Arabia, which in 2014 flooded the market with cheap oil in a decision coordinated together with the US that drove oil prices down and crippled countries who's economies depend on oil like Venezuela and Iran. I mean oil prices reached like 30 dollars a barrel in 2016. Thats insane. I mean, one barrel of oil, thats 160 litres, I think, was selling for $30. Thats freakin 18cents a litre. Thats freaking like 300% cheaper than water!!! Is that not a freaking crazy price for a finite resource thats projected to run out within the next like 50 years?
Oil prices down is good for a net importer.

Venezulas crisis is homegrown. A couple of sanctions do not cause inflation to be well in excess of 80,000. That’s chronic economic mismanagement and having an economy relying on one thing.
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Fullofsurprises
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Andrew97)
Started 150 years ago. No it didn’t.

never thought I’d see a lefty advocate arms sales. Interesting. The rest is clearly a pile of crap.


the fact that you are comparing a shithole where a wheelbarrow of money can’t even buy a pint of milk to the U.K. is stupid.
You really need to focus a bit more before wading in. I wasn't advocating arms sales, I stated clearly that it wasn't a bad thing that the US had blocked arms sales.

The hyperinflation is a recent thing but I certainly wasn't comparing it to the UK and I've no idea why you thought I was.

Look back at the Munroe Doctrine and the outcomes of the 1895 Venezuela Crisis for more information on early US interventions in the northern parts of Latin America in particular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezu...f_1895#Outcome
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Andrew97
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
You really need to focus a bit more before wading in. I wasn't advocating arms sales, I stated clearly that it wasn't a bad thing that the US had blocked arms sales.

The hyperinflation is a recent thing but I certainly wasn't comparing it to the UK and I've no idea why you thought I was.

Look back at the Munroe Doctrine and the outcomes of the 1895 Venezuela Crisis for more information on early US interventions in the northern parts of Latin America in particular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezu...f_1895#Outcome
You literally compared it to Brexit in the OP.

That wiki article states that Venezaula actually asked the US at points to get involved.

Plenty of disputes have a 3rd party acting as an arbitrator.
Last edited by Andrew97; 2 weeks ago
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Fullofsurprises
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Andrew97)
You literally compared it to Brexit in the OP.

That wiki article states that Venezaula actually asked the US at points to get involved.

Plenty of disputes have a 3rd party acting as an arbitrator.
Perhaps you didn't realise that the OP was intended to be ironic humour and not a comprehensive description of current realities written in an academic tone?
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jameswhughes
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Perhaps you didn't realise that the OP was intended to be ironic humour and not a comprehensive description of current realities written in an academic tone?
It wasn't clear whether you were being sarcastic, after all you've defended Venezuela in subsequent posts and compared also people fleeing the country to a few people here applying for Irish passports.
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The Champion.m4a
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#36
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#36
(Original post by ap.ferro)
Can you imagine if corbyn said he won the last election even though he didn't? There would be an outcry. Why isn't there an outcry that Guadiuo is declaring himself leader? The US wants Venezuela as a puppet state, for the oil of course
That last presidential election was universally seen as illegitimate. Venezuela's constitution grants power to the president of its National Assembly (ie Guiadó) as *interim* president to oversee a new presidential election. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that unless Guiadó ends up beginning another dictator. You'll find very few Venezuelans who actually supoort Maduro. Both the rich and the poor hate him now.

When Mexico's current left-wing president lost his first presidential bid, he declared himself the legitimate president, staged an inauguration, and paralyzed traffic in the capital for months. There's no outcry back then either. This is not a left versus right thing. The fact that the very anti-American Ecuador is supporting Guiadó should tell you that too.
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The Champion.m4a
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Pinkisk)
What's happening in Venezula has nothing to do with democracy. The US is, I think, resorting to its trusted Iraq method to cause a coupe in Venezuela as to replace the Venezuelan government, which does not favour its interests, with one that does. This trusted method is as follows:

Impose sanctions,
Cripple the economy,
Starve the people to death,
Wait for the people to become agitated and demand change,
Send in agitators to agitate the people against the government.
Make sure your media blames the government for the money problems, which you caused through your sanctions.
Wait for people to cause a coupe.
If this fails send in the US army to remove the government to 'save the people' whom you starved with your sanctions....
Replace the government with ones that are pro-American not before, of course, denationalising all the material wealth of the country and selling it to American companies.
Profit.
Move on to the next country!
Whilst that is true, it doesn't change the fact that Maduro is incapable of running a country and that people are in desperate situation. Ever if the US stops sabotaging Venezuela right now, it's highly unlikely that things will change for the better for them.
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Fullofsurprises
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#38
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#38
(Original post by jameswhughes)
It wasn't clear whether you were being sarcastic, after all you've defended Venezuela in subsequent posts and compared also people fleeing the country to a few people here applying for Irish passports.
I've defended the overall long term situation for Venezuela, which is that they are unable to retain or benefit from the full value of their oil, or organise to that goal, without massive US interference and undermining, driven by the interests of the global oil multinationals, etc. That doesn't mean that in the detail I support the Maduro government, I don't. Most of my posts have simply been pointing out that the simplistic attacks on Chavez and his system lack an understanding of the facts on the ground in that country, as do the attempts of Tories and others in this country to side with the rhetoric of the US.

Also, there's nothing wrong or unusual about starting a thread with a joke and then being serious in it.
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The Champion.m4a
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
US interference didn't start last week. It started about 150 years ago. Also, whilst they didn't impose oil sanctions until recently, there have been long running US sanctions against things like weapons sales to the Chavez (and now Maduro) governments. That isn't a bad thing necessarily, but technically. However, the real difficulties in the country under the recent governments started when there was a big strike in the main state oil company, to which Chavez reacted badly, clamping down on various freedoms and dishing out large subsidies which turned ugly when oil prices fell. That strike was manipulated by the US against a background of a failed coup against Chavez and anger from the oil industry against him, particularly because Chavez tried to reintroduce OPEC price hikes, which was unacceptable to the US.
https://ips-dc.org/oil_and_venezuelas_failed_coup/

Chavez dealt badly with these issues, but his government was heavily pressured from abroad and he was basically just trying to channel oil profits more towards the people and away from the rich in Venezuela and the oil multinationals.
This is rather neither here nor there considering the fact that it isn't even Chavez who's in power now, and that Maduro has clearly shown much worse ability in running a country.

The fact remains that Venezuelans are suffering, and internal protests have not been strong enough to trigger a regime change. The cause of it all might have been the US, but the solution right now isn't Maduro staying in power for life.
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The Champion.m4a
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I've defended the overall long term situation for Venezuela, which is that they are unable to retain or benefit from the full value of their oil, or organise to that goal, without massive US interference and undermining, driven by the interests of the global oil multinationals, etc. That doesn't mean that in the detail I support the Maduro government, I don't. Most of my posts have simply been pointing out that the simplistic attacks on Chavez and his system lack an understanding of the facts on the ground in that country, as do the attempts of Tories and others in this country to side with the rhetoric of the US.

Also, there's nothing wrong or unusual about starting a thread with a joke and then being serious in it.
Regarding the oil: it isn't simply that it's cheaper now that their goverment is no longer able to subsidize everything, but that they're crap at running the state oil company.

Venezuelan pil is the second-most expensive to get after the UK, and oil production has been dropping every day due to rampant corruption in the current regime. They have the largest oil reserve in the world, they could've simply produced more oil to makeup for the price drop, but due to their own incompetence, they haven't been able to survive like Iran has.
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