Venezuela Watch

Libtardian
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Pinkisk)
What's happening in Venezula has nothing to do with democracy. The US is, I think, resorting to its trusted Iraq method to cause a coupe in Venezuela as to replace the Venezuelan government, which does not favour its interests, with one that does. This trusted method is as follows:

Impose sanctions,
Cripple the economy,
Starve the people to death,
Wait for the people to become agitated and demand change,
Send in agitators to agitate the people against the government.
Make sure your media blames the government for the money problems, which you caused through your sanctions.
Wait for people to cause a coupe.
If this fails send in the US army to remove the government to 'save the people' whom you starved with your sanctions....
Replace the government with ones that are pro-American not before, of course, denationalising all the material wealth of the country and selling it to American companies.
Profit.
Move on to the next country!
Venuezuelans have themselves to blame for this, if they can't elect a competant government to service their interests then one will be imposed on them one way or another to service other people's interests.

If the US does nothing then soon China/Russia will get all their assets.
Last edited by Libtardian; 2 weeks ago
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#42
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#42
all the new age commies - "Ooh I love communism, but it was never implemented correctly, *sigh*" - bish what?? lol
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Pinkisk
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#43
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#43
(Original post by Libtardian)
Venuezuelans have themselves to blame for this, if they can't elect a competant government to service their interests then one will be imposed on them one way or another to service other people's interests.

If the US does nothing then soon China/Russia will get all their assets.
Sometimes, when people make the wrong choices they result in catastrophic disasters for their countries, disasters that sometimes lead to their countries being invaded, exploited and destroyed by others...but two wrongs don't make a right. If I were to elect a government that turned out to be bad....that does not justify my country being invaded, exploited and abused by others. Those latter things are wrongs that need to be challenged.
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
all the new age commies - "Ooh I love communism, but it was never implemented correctly, *sigh*" - bish what?? lol
lol..ya. That is true. Communism has been disastrous whereever it has reared its head. It is a fundamentally flawed ideology, built on fundamentally flawed principles that are extremely simplistic.

Communist: Religions are the root cause of all evil. Without religions there would be no authoritarianism and no war!!!!
Random person: So, uhm, how do you propose we achieve this goal?
Communist: We will force all people to abandon their religions and wage war and commit genocide against all those who refuse!
Random person: *facepalm*
Last edited by Pinkisk; 2 weeks ago
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Libtardian
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#44
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#44
(Original post by Pinkisk)
Sometimes, when people make the wrong choices they result in catastrophic disasters for their countries, disasters that sometimes lead to their countries being invaded, exploited and destroyed by others...but two wrongs don't make a right. If I were to elect a government that turned out to be bad....that does not justify my country being invaded, exploited and abused by others. Those latter things are wrongs that need to be challenged.
That's how nature generally works, weak die, strong live.
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Pinkisk
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Libtardian)
That's how nature generally works, weak die, strong live.
Thats how evil works Libtardian. Thats how evil works!!

(lol funny name btw. is it a reference to libertarians or liberals? :P)
Last edited by Pinkisk; 2 weeks ago
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Cast Iron
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#46
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#46
(Original post by The Champion.m4a)
That last presidential election was universally seen as illegitimate. Venezuela's constitution grants power to the president of its National Assembly (ie Guiadó) as *interim* president to oversee a new presidential election. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that unless Guiadó ends up beginning another dictator. You'll find very few Venezuelans who actually supoort Maduro. Both the rich and the poor hate him now.
You can't just declare an election illegitimate because you don't like the result. It is not "universally" seen as illegitimate, because there are many countries who either still recognize Maduro as the legitimate President or who aren't taking sides. What evidence do you have that the election wasn't legitimate? Why are the pro Maduro rallies being completely ignored in the news by people pushing the narrative that everyone hates him? Imagine if Corbyn had just declared himself the legitimate Prime Minister after the last general election and Russia said they were sending "humanitarian aid" to support him, and too undermine and try to push out the actual government. Would you be supporting that too?
Last edited by Cast Iron; 2 weeks ago
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#47
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#47
(Original post by Cast Iron)
You can't just declare an election illegitimate because you don't like the result. It is not "universally" seen as illegitimate, because there are many countries who either still recognize Maduro as the legitimate President or who aren't taking sides. What evidence do you have that the election wasn't legitimate? If Corbyn had just declared himself the legitimate Prime Minister after the last general election and Russia said they were sending "humanitarian aid" to undermine the British government and help get Corbyn into power would that be ok too?
lol look at the election results seems legit - just because something is not universally seen as illegitimate doesnt legitimise his corrupt hold on power......
Russia and China want to be seen as protectors, but are rearing an anti USA government now for their own interest....

This type of socialism with a leader like Maduro was doomed to fail from the start.... wave your red flag in Caracas momentarily before you get shot...
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Cast Iron
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#48
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#48
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
lol look at the election results seems legit - just because something is not universally seen as illegitimate doesnt legitimise his corrupt hold on power......
What about it doesn't seem legit?


(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
Russia and China want to be seen as protectors, but are rearing an anti USA government now for their own interest....
The USA obviously wants to be seen as a protector too, by supposedly sending in humanitarian aid. I don't think there is anything wrong with sending aid itself, but it shouldn't be used as a way to try and destabilize democracy in the country. It seems like they are trying to use it as a ploy to convince people to abandon Maduro, and get their puppet dictator put in charge. I am suspicious of what the US agenda is in sending this aid for two reasons. The first is that a lot of the economic suffering in Venezuela is because of US sanctions. The US could easily alleviate some of that suffering by lifting all sanctions. They aren't doing that, so they obviously don't care too much about the Venezuelan people, the shipment of aid seems to be more of a political stunt/bribe to try and destabilize the legitimate government. The second reason is that in Syria, the US and allies often used humanitarian aid shipments to smuggle weapons to rebel groups and I am concerned they might do the same here. At a minimum, the shipments would need to be inspected by Veneuzeulan forces before being allowed to pass.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#49
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#49
(Original post by Cast Iron)
What about it doesn't seem legit?




The USA obviously wants to be seen as a protector too, by supposedly sending in humanitarian aid. I don't think there is anything wrong with sending aid itself, but it shouldn't be used as a way to try and destabilize democracy in the country. It seems like they are trying to use it as a ploy to convince people to abandon Maduro, and get their puppet dictator put in charge. I am suspicious of what the US agenda is in sending this aid for two reasons. The first is that a lot of the economic suffering in Venezuela is because of US sanctions. The US could easily alleviate some of that suffering by lifting all sanctions. They aren't doing that, so they obviously don't care too much about the Venezuelan people, the shipment of aid seems to be more of a political stunt/bribe to try and destabilize the legitimate government. The second reason is that in Syria, the US and allies often used humanitarian aid shipments to smuggle weapons to rebel groups and I am concerned they might do the same here. At a minimum, the shipments would need to be inspected by Veneuzeulan forces before being allowed to pass.
maybe because people are starving because of their ridiculous policies staying in power under corrupted elections....
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The Champion.m4a
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Cast Iron)
You can't just declare an election illegitimate because you don't like the result. It is not "universally" seen as illegitimate, because there are many countries who either still recognize Maduro as the legitimate President or who aren't taking sides. What evidence do you have that the election wasn't legitimate? Why are the pro Maduro rallies being completely ignored in the news by people pushing the narrative that everyone hates him? Imagine if Corbyn had just declared himself the legitimate Prime Minister after the last general election and Russia said they were sending "humanitarian aid" to support him, and too undermine and try to push out the actual government. Would you be supporting that too?
The opinion of far away countries that have no connection to Venezuela is not as important than literally all its neighbours, or the countries they used to be in the same country with. I'm sorry for valuing Colombia's judgement over The Gambia's non-judgment.

He jailed all the viable opposition leaders before the election. What proof do you need? He literally made his congress powerless while creating a new body filled with appointed members from his own party. How is that not dictatorial?
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Cast Iron
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#51
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#51
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
maybe because people are starving because of their ridiculous policies staying in power under corrupted elections....
They are starving because of sanctions imposed by the USA. If we had food shortages because of sanctions imposed by Russia, and then they offered us humanitarian aid and told our elected government to stand down and be replaced by an unelected leader they controlled, would that be ok with you? It is completely unacceptable for the USA to use food shortages that their sanctions caused to try and undermine the democratic process of another country. They complained when Russia tried influencing the USA election, so why are they allowed to do the same to other countries?
Last edited by Cast Iron; 2 weeks ago
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DenierSurvivor
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#52
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#52
US, Israel and some other colonial powers are involved they have no interest of the people just oil and control


Its well known the Maduro is pretty tight with Russia and Iran
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Cast Iron
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#53
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#53
(Original post by DenierSurvivor)
Its well known the Maduro is pretty tight with Russia and Iran
Does that matter? He's been democratically elected, this opposition guy hasn't. Our Prime Minister is "pretty tight" with the US, does that mean foreign countries like Russia have the right to demand she step down and be replaced with an unelected pro Russian dictator?
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#54
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#54
(Original post by Cast Iron)
Does that matter? He's been democratically elected, this opposition guy hasn't. Our Prime Minister is "pretty tight" with the US, does that mean foreign countries like Russia have the right to demand she step down and be replaced with an unelected pro Russian dictator?
DeMoCrAtIcAlLy lol
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Andrew97
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Cast Iron)
Does that matter? He's been democratically elected, this opposition guy hasn't. Our Prime Minister is "pretty tight" with the US, does that mean foreign countries like Russia have the right to demand she step down and be replaced with an unelected pro Russian dictator?
He has though. Guadio has been elected leader of the National Assembly.
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Good bloke
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#56
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#56
(Original post by Cast Iron)
He's been democratically elected, this opposition guy hasn't.
Not many would agree with that. The election was rigged by Maduro by banning opposition candidates from taking part or gaoling them. Others boycotted it. The national assembly (democratically elected) has declared Maduro to be usurping power by fixing the election. In these circumstances the constitution lays down that the head of the national assembly takes over as acting president until a new election can be held. This is where we are now. The acting president is not the person defeated in the rigged election.

The EU and the Latin American countries warned Maduro of sanctions if he went ahead with the rigged election, and he did. Sanctions were inevitable.
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Tempest II
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Pinkisk)
Andrewww!! sanctions have been in place on Venezuela since 2015, since Obama!!!! The US has been waging an economic war on Venezuela for many years now alongside its allies, countries like Saudi Arabia, which in 2014 flooded the market with cheap oil in a decision coordinated together with the US that drove oil prices down and crippled countries who's economies depend on oil like Venezuela and Iran. I mean oil prices reached like 30 dollars a barrel in 2016. Thats insane. I mean, one barrel of oil, thats 160 litres, I think, was selling for $30. Thats freakin 18cents a litre. Thats freaking like 300% cheaper than water!!! Is that not a freaking crazy price for a finite resource thats projected to run out within the next like 50 years?
Oil was kept cheap for a variety of reasons. One was actually because Saudi Arabia wanted to stop the US Shale Oil boom in its tracks. It failed.
The US itself didn't complain too much about it as cheap oil isn't exactly a bad thing and it helped to stop Russia's military investment too. Which is why their latest generation of MBTs and 5th gen fighters are barely off the drawing board.
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Cast Iron
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#58
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#58
(Original post by Good bloke)
Not many would agree with that. The election was rigged by Maduro by banning opposition candidates from taking part or gaoling them. Others boycotted it.
Being an opposition candidate doesn't allow you to break the law without consequence. If Jeremy Corbyn got jailed for breaking the law before the last general election, would that mean the election was rigged? It seems that people are trying to imply that these candidates were arrested purely for being opposition candidates. That is objectively untrue, and it's shameful that our media are pushing this untrue propaganda to try and undermine democracy. Especially when they talk so much of Russian interference in our democracy.
Last edited by Cast Iron; 2 weeks ago
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Good bloke
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#59
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#59
(Original post by Cast Iron)
It seems that people are trying to imply that these candidates were arrested purely for being opposition candidates. That is objectively untrue
Is it really? Can you prove that? Do you represent the Venezuelan government, or any other government?
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Cast Iron
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#60
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#60
(Original post by Good bloke)
Is it really? Can you prove that? Do you represent the Venezuelan government, or any other government?
The media are spreading untrue information, they are running with this falsehood that opposition candidates were arrested just because they are running against the government. But that is objectively untrue, as it is not against the law to do that, and people do not get arrested if all they are doing is opposing the government. But that doesn't mean they are allowed to break the law, and if they do that then yes they can expect to be locked up. We would do the same in our country. Jeremy Corbyn will never be arrested just because he is a member of the opposition, as that's not a crime. If he went out and started breaking the law then he could well be locked up, and what would be wrong with that? In a democracy you have to respect the rule of law, and you shouldn't get special treatment just because you are a member of the opposition. Other Venezuelans have to follow the law, why should these guys be different, what's so special about them you think the rule of law doesn't apply?
Last edited by Cast Iron; 2 weeks ago
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