EU’s Donald Tusk says there is a special place in Hell for Brexiteers Watch

generallee
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#61
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(Original post by StriderHort)
Sadly, Yes, I still feel our lot are worse, certainly got our fair share of rude abrupt drunks, plenty of criminals, a whos who of sexual and social offences and it wasn't that long that a huge group all got caught with the their hands in the till, oh yeah, deporting out own citizens, that too. Oh, and the MP who sped, lied repeatedly and compared herself to Jesus.

T & J might not be elected directly by us, but they broadly anwer the to the European council and can be removed by a Euro Parliament vote of censure/confience, same as ours. And agian, what's so great about us? We've got a rigged 2 party system with 3 tory parties, try voting THEM out :confused:
Forget Tusk and especially Juncker who is reportedly too drunk after lunch to even seriously take part in meetings and is a mere figurehead. The real powerbrokers are two Germans with a visceral hatred of Britain, Martin Selmayr and Sabine Weyand.

https://www.conservativehome.com/pla...xit-talks.html

British politicians may be utterly useless, but they don't actively hate this country and scheme to tear the mainland apart from Northern lreland as an act of punishment for daring to vote Leave.

Who cares about the European Parliament? (Do you even know the name of your MEP?) In any case, they won't vote to get rid of these two because by the lights of the EU they are doing a great job. The European Parliament doesn't care if your country gets screwed over so why do you think it democratically reperesents you?

The only way we can get free ourselves from their yoke is to Leave. If we vote Remain in any second referendum these two will continue to rule us. Do you think they will be looking after your welfare and mine if we do stay in?? No it will be Germany's. The country (along with France) that has always decided matters, in their narrow national interests.

(By the way, I take it from your comment about three Tory Parties that you are a Socialist. If that is the case, your support for the EU mystifies me. You do realise that the EU is a hyper capitalist, big business supporting, eltist cabal, which will prevent any democratically elected socialist Government (like Syriza in Greece) actually doing anything remotely Socialist, don't you?? Why do you think Corbyn is a Leaver? Or maybe you don't understand?)
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quasa
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surprised nobody has spotted the Dante's Inferno connection...

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tl;dr - dantes inferno is about some guy who goes to hell to rescue the soul of his missus and the most famous expression arising from said novel is that "the deepest level of hell is reserved for traitors".

As the brexiteers are technically betraying the EU and in remainers / EUs mind the british public, one could assume that Tusk was inferring the main brexit campaigners are traitors as they had no decent plan.
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DJKL
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(Original post by quasa)
surprised nobody has spotted the Dante's Inferno connection...

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tl;dr - dantes inferno is about some guy who goes to hell to rescue the soul of his missus and the most famous expression arising from said novel is that "the deepest level of hell is reserved for traitors".

As the brexiteers are technically betraying the EU and in remainers / EUs mind the british public, one could assume that Tusk was inferring the main brexit campaigners are traitors as they had no decent plan.
I had spotted it and posted elsewhere ,but was more of the view that really a tenth circle was needed

"There may be a Circle in Hell for that, we need a Dante successor to do a rewrite.

Sshhhhhhhhh----- All these for Brexit Plans, Circle Ten, please alight here--------sshhhhhhhhhh- The lift will now descend to Limbo stopping at Treachery, Fraud, Violence, Heresy, Anger, Greed, Gluttony and Lust."
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quasa
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(Original post by DJKL)

Sshhhhhhhhh----- All these for Brexit Plans, Circle Ten, please alight here--------sshhhhhhhhhh- The lift will now descend to Limbo stopping at Treachery, Fraud, Violence, Heresy, Anger, Greed, Gluttony and Lust."
strictly speaking, isnt all of politics essentially all of the above? :lol:
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The RAR
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Harsh choice of words but the point he is making is correct. Hadrdcore no deal Brexiteers are really idiots, they think we will be fine with a new deal and that is fine to insult the EU into giving us everything we want whilst at the same time giving the EU nothing back (Where is the logic in that) and that with a no deal we will be fine in the long term? Come on, is pretty obvious they don't have a plan. Idiots like Gerald Batten and the likes think we will be absolutely fine and be "great" again outside the EU, but I can assure you in 10 or 6 years time at least you will be running back to the EU for help, who is going to be the idiot then?
And this is coming from a Leave supporter
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generallee
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Tusk is outspoken and uses colourful language ("place in hell"), but he was completely correct in the meaning of what he said. Hardcore Brexiteers have never clearly explained the consequences of Brexit, nor have they ever put forward credible plans for how Britain and the EU will deal with those consequences. Yet they pressed ahead anyway, full of irrational ideological fervour and contempt for the facts.
Remainer lies, but who is surprised, you opened your mouth...

We are where we not because of a lack of a Brexiteer plan, but because it was never implemented by the Remainer Government and Parliament who (just like you) have never accepted their defeat at the Referendum and don't want to implement Brexit. THAT is the reason for the chaos, you are to blame.

What was the plan? We should have told the EU we were leaving by X date, two years after triggering Article 50, giving us enough time to take appropriate measures for departure. We were under no obligation to set the date we did, it was the EU who kept pressuring us to trigger, their stupid two year process we were acceding to.

Then we should have said, OK, we are out, nice knowing you. If you want a trading relationship come back to us, we are always willing to talk. Then they could have come up with an agreement, as between equals, acceptable to both parties if they wanted one (they do, they want the £39 billion, they want the trade, they don't want the hard Irish border) but if they didn't we would have had time to prepare.

It is you guys, the Remainers who wanted it to be chaos, s as to fail. We always had a plan and it would have been a lot better than the mess we are in now because we would have negotiated from stregth, not craven weakness and a criminal lack of preparedness from the permanent bureaucracy.

Don't think your lies as to why Brexit has so far failed are going to be unexposed if there is a Second Referendum. You are to blame for this, You always wanted it to fail, you never accepted the result of the real "People's Vote", you and your bessie friends in the EU nomenklatura.
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Sentenced_to
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(Original post by generallee)
The only way we can get free ourselves from their yoke is to Leave. If we vote Remain in any second referendum these two will continue to rule us. Do you think they will be looking after your welfare and mine if we do stay in?? No it will be Germany's. The country (along with France) that has always decided matters, in their narrow national interests.

(By the way, I take it from your comment about three Tory Parties that you are a Socialist. If that is the case, your support for the EU mystifies me. You do realise that the EU is a hyper capitalist, big business supporting, eltist cabal, which will prevent any democratically elected socialist Government (like Syriza in Greece) actually doing anything remotely Socialist, don't you?? Why do you think Corbyn is a Leaver? Or maybe you don't understand?)
The big question here is, why does the 5th biggest economy in the world allows the Germans and the French to run the show.
Short answer is: because you never gave a $hit about the EU. You didn't want to be involved and you were never involved, simple as that. Now the blame game comfortably works for your brexit arguments.

About Socialism and Greece... One of the main reasons that Greece is in this mess, is because the EU left Greece's governments (even the "conservative" ones) to freely do their Socialist (it a VERY bad way) thing (i.e. public servants overrecruitment, excessive loans etc) The reason why the EU didn't care back then is most probably because the Germans just wanted to sell their cars in Southern Europe too, and as long as the plan worked fine then no one cared. Now, the are suddenly clumsy all over it. Very sad, but in a way thank God they are not leaving Syriza alone to totally destroy what is left of the country.
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DJKL
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(Original post by quasa)
strictly speaking, isnt all of politics essentially all of the above? :lol:
Probably yes, but Brexit is possibly a special blend- Tusk may be wrong, maybe there is no special place, instead they need to inhabit the different circles in succession.
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DJKL
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(Original post by generallee)
Remainer lies, but who is surprised, you opened your mouth...

We are where we not because of a lack of a Brexiteer plan, but because it was never implemented by the Remainer Government and Parliament who (just like you) have never accepted their defeat at the Referendum and don't want to implement Brexit. THAT is the reason for the chaos, you are to blame.

What was the plan? We should have told the EU we were leaving by X date, two years after triggering Article 50, giving us enough time to take appropriate measures for departure. We were under no obligation to set the date we did, it was the EU who kept pressuring us to trigger, their stupid two year process we were acceding to.

Then we should have said, OK, we are out, nice knowing you. If you want a trading relationship come back to us, we are always willing to talk. Then they could have come up with an agreement, as between equals, acceptable to both parties if they wanted one (they do, they want the £39 billion, they want the trade, they don't want the hard Irish border) but if they didn't we would have had time to prepare.

It is you guys, the Remainers who wanted it to be chaos, s as to fail. We always had a plan and it would have been a lot better than the mess we are in now because we would have negotiated from stregth, not craven weakness and a criminal lack of preparedness from the permanent bureaucracy.

Don't think your lies as to why Brexit has so far failed are going to be unexposed if there is a Second Referendum. You are to blame for this, You always wanted it to fail, you never accepted the result of the real "People's Vote", you and your bessie friends in the EU nomenklatura.
Really- that simple. And in this time line of yours, between our leaving and the new trade arrangements being put in place, what was intended to happen re UK industry, farmers etc, they all of course had the resources to take incredibly large reductions in income for a sustained period yet still be in existence when the promised land of the negotiated trade deal finally arrived.

Pure fantasy, could not have been delivered without destroying a very large number of individuals re their employment, they would then be without work, needing to claim benefits, soaring UK budget deficit, massively reducing tax receipts.
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generallee
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(Original post by Sentenced_to)
The big question here is, why does the 5th biggest economy in the world allows the Germans and the French to run the show.
Short answer is: because you never gave a $hit about the EU. You didn't want to be involved and you were never involved, simple as that. Now the blame game comfortably works for your brexit arguments.

About Socialism and Greece... One of the main reasons that Greece is in this mess, is because the EU left Greece's governments (even the "conservative" ones) to freely do their Socialist (it a VERY bad way) thing (i.e. public servants overrecruitment, excessive loans etc) The reason why the EU didn't care back then is most probably because the Germans just wanted to sell their cars in Southern Europe too, and as long as the plan worked fine then no one cared. Now, the are suddenly clumsy all over it. Very sad, but in a way thank God they are not leaving Syriza alone to totally destroy what is left of the country.
I don't disagree that successive Greek governments were terribly to blame for massively overborrowing to fund corruption and overbloated public spending. That is true.

But why were they allowed in the Euro in the first place? It made no economic sense, it would never make any economic sense unless there was a concomitant political union. It was a political decision by our EU masters in their little elitist Brussels bubble. An appalling mistake that has condemned one in every two young Greeks to unemployment if they don't emigrate.

If you have a single currency and a true federal government then the richer parts can bail out the poorer ones. If Alabama went bust, Californians would bail them out. But Germans wouldn't bail out the Greeks, won't forgive them their debts. Which they can't service, which is strangling them.

And the only economic answer for Greece is debt forgiveness and for them to leave the Euro. It would be a huge short term shock, but a devalued Drachma would make their economy boom long term. Everyone would go to Greece as a tourist it would be so cheap.

But that can't happen because it is unacceptable politically to our EU masters in their enelected elitist Brussels bubble, and of course Germany, who run things.

So yes, Greek governments were to blame, but the suffering of the poor Greek people is on the EU. Their grand projets matter more than a member state's people.

And how can they get away with this? Because they are not democratically accountable to the Greek people.
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generallee
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(Original post by DJKL)
Really- that simple. And in this time line of yours, between our leaving and the new trade arrangements being put in place, what was intended to happen re UK industry, farmers etc, they all of course had the resources to take incredibly large reductions in income for a sustained period yet still be in existence when the promised land of the negotiated trade deal finally arrived.

Pure fantasy, could not have been delivered without destroying a very large number of individuals re their employment, they would then be without work, needing to claim benefits, soaring UK budget deficit, massively reducing tax receipts.
It is NOT pure fantasy, it would have been eminently doable.

Would there have been short term disruption, and consequences for some people? Of course, but that was the vote, that is what we should have done.

Whenever a country regains independence after being colonised there are people who lose out. Do you think it was easy on the Indian sub continent after Partition? In the US after the American War of Independence?

In comparison to that our problems are trivial. We are just leaving a trading bloc, Jesus.
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DJKL
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(Original post by generallee)
It is NOT pure fantasy, it would have been eminently doable.

Would there have been short term disruption, and consequences for some people? Of course, but that was the vote, that is what we should have done.

Whenever a country regains independence after being colonised there are people who lose out. Do you think it was easy on the Indian sub continent after Partition? In the US after the American War of Independence?

In comparison to that our problems are trivial. We are just leaving a trading bloc, Jesus.
A trading block which our economy is so entwined with ten years or more would not have been enough time to cleanly disentangle, something like Flexcit could work but the gung ho, lets just leave and hang the consequences approach, certainly would not. Have you actually read Minford's views re what no deal would entail for secctions of our economy, I personally think the man is barking but he is at least one of your own, that rare breed, An Economist for Brexit.

And short term, what do you mean short term, you somehow think trade arrangements with the R of W will just spring up overnight, that the trade so readily discarded just reappears. Trade relationships between countries take years, between business entities take years to grow , they start small, test how things work, and maybe gradually blossom- this would not be a short term disruption, this would be a disruption impacting a generation of UK citizens. If you have say forty five productive years to work, to save for retirement, buy a house etc, then remove the first 10-15-20 years of that to a level where you subsist, have you any idea the level of saving needed to replace that which you have lost- there is a saying that £10 saved in your 20s is worth £20 in your thirties and £40 in your forties, if you place on hold the lives of a population then they will suffer, and it is the younger individuals who will suffer the most.

Those of my age own their houses, cars, have pension savings etc, a sudden walk away Brexit is going to be so damaging for younger voters, especially those who have entered the workplace after 2008 and have already suffered through one pretty nasty recession, but brexit No Deal will make 2008 to now look like paradise.
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SMEGGGY
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Yes as God is a remainer. He's a **** as is the EU good ****ing riddance to these backward European leaders
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Sentenced_to
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(Original post by generallee)
I don't disagree that successive Greek governments were terribly to blame for massively overborrowing to fund corruption and overbloated public spending. That is true.

But why were they allowed in the Euro in the first place? It made no economic sense, it would never make any economic sense unless there was a concomitant political union. It was a political decision by our EU masters in their little elitist Brussels bubble. An appalling mistake that has condemned one in every two young Greeks to unemployment if they don't emigrate.

If you have a single currency and a true federal government then the richer parts can bail out the poorer ones. If Alabama went bust, Californians would bail them out. But Germans wouldn't bail out the Greeks, won't forgive them their debts. Which they can't service, which is strangling them.

And the only economic answer for Greece is debt forgiveness and for them to leave the Euro. It would be a huge short term shock, but a devalued Drachma would make their economy boom long term. Everyone would go to Greece as a tourist it would be so cheap.

But that can't happen because it is unacceptable politically to our EU masters in their enelected elitist Brussels bubble, and of course Germany, who run things.

So yes, Greek governments were to blame, but the suffering of the poor Greek people is on the EU. Their grand projets matter more than a member state's people.

And how can they get away with this? Because they are not democratically accountable to the Greek people.
Greece was allowed in Eurozone because we typically met the entry conditions (despite any creative accounting that other member countries used as well!). This alone didn't condemn Greeks to unemployment which was 7.5% in 2008. Bad government policies did.

A sudden default to Drachma with the combination of ill equipped and/or corrupted politicians and a population that was accustomed to high living standards would have caused its rapid and constant devaluation with unknown results, probably tragic IMO.

The EU did/do serious mistakes, but they are surely not alone to blame for whatever bad happens on the continent.
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generallee
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(Original post by Sentenced_to)
Greece was allowed in Eurozone because they typically met the entry conditions (despite any creative accounting that other member countries used as well!). This alone didn't condemn Greeks to unemployment which was 7.5% in 2008. Bad government policies did.

A sudden default to Drachma with the combination of ill equipped and/or corrupted politicians and a population that was accustomed to high living standards would have caused its rapid and constant devaluation with unknown results, probably tragic IMO.

The EU did/do serious mistakes, but they are surely not alone to blame for whatever bad happens on the continent.
The EU is totally to blame for the bad that is happening on the continent! They rule it.

And don't get me started on the EU's failure to deal with the refugee crisis. Or disastrous sacred cows like free movement. Which has led to mass immigration into countries like France, Germany and the UK and depopulation in the east which has turned centuries old communities in places like Latvia into ghost towns. Schools closing for lack of pupils, the only ones left, people too old to move.

The EU is a 1970's solution to a 1940's problem. It is doomed, we are just ahead of the curve in getting out now.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by generallee)
What was the plan? We should have told the EU we were leaving by X date, two years after triggering Article 50, giving us enough time to take appropriate measures for departure. We were under no obligation to set the date we did, it was the EU who kept pressuring us to trigger, their stupid two year process we were acceding to.
The two years is in the Article 50 legislation - it was up to the UK to decide when to invoke A50, the two years would always have started automatically from that date. Blaming this on the EU is utterly absurd. The rush to invoke A50 was purely a political decision by Theresa May to sooth her Brexit-crazed backbenchers, who assumed she would otherwise use it to indefintely delay. You're just wrong on this point.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by generallee)
The EU is totally to blame for the bad that is happening on the continent! They rule it.

And don't get me started on the EU's failure to deal with the refugee crisis. Or disastrous sacred cows like free movement. Which has led to mass immigration into countries like France, Germany and the UK and depopulation in the east which has turned centuries old communities in places like Latvia into ghost towns. Schools closing for lack of pupils, the only ones left, people too old to move.

The EU is a 1970's solution to a 1940's problem. It is doomed, we are just ahead of the curve in getting out now.
Just out of interest, would you regard the large movements of people between regions inside the US, often leading to abandonment of entire cities (Detroit being the leading example) as an old fashioned solution, or as the normal and rational workings of free market capitalism?
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Violet Femme)
Tusk is absolutely correct. The architects of Brexit were either too lazy or not intellectually capable of devising a viable and detailed Brexit strategy. Instead they told their supporters Brexit would be a way of sticking it to the establishment. Sadly, too many people fell for their line. More than two years down the line and we still have not agreed on an exit strategy. You can understand why Europeans are losing their patience with British ineptitude
Wow and at least 8 other elitest prejudice people are members of the student rooms.

What do you have (and all the people whom rep'd this) experience and knowledge wise that convinces you are superior without even engaging in debate with the people whom you are prejudice against?
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generallee
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The two years is in the Article 50 legislation - it was up to the UK to decide when to invoke A50, the two years would always have started automatically from that date. Blaming this on the EU is utterly absurd. The rush to invoke A50 was purely a political decision by Theresa May to sooth her Brexit-crazed backbenchers, who assumed she would otherwise use it to indefintely delay. You're just wrong on this point.
Blaming this on the EU is far from utterly absurd. The whole article 50 process is THEIR process. It could have been altered. but of course they didn't do that because they wanted to put the maximum pressure on us (Barnier's "ze clock is ticking!") in the negotiation and they want to punish us for leaving, or get us to change our minds altogether. And you are rewriting history, or forgetting it, because it was the EU which was putting constant dip;oatic pressure on us to invoke Article 50 alomost from the date of the Referendum.

"The 27 do not in that statement address the substance of Brexit. It is for the UK to fire the first salvo, by triggering Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, hopefully by the end of March next year. They only express their impatience to see the process start by the end of March 2017, enabling them to “begin to tackle the uncertainties arising from the prospect of the UK’s withdrawal”.

https://www.globalpolicywatch.com/20...s-in-brussels/

There may have been individual Leavers foolishy urging the triggering of Article 50 before we were ready, but that wasn't the position of the official Leave campaign. They argued that it should not have been invoked then, and even that an alternative process should have been explored with the EU different from Article 50. We should have taken control of the negotiations from the start, not danced to their procedural tune.

http://voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html

Cui bono? Who stood to gain from the failure of this Brexit process? Leave or Remain? It is totally on you and your mates in the EU. You both wanted it to fail from the start and a second referendum. Try and deny it with a straight face.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8635676.html
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generallee
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Just out of interest, would you regard the large movements of people between regions inside the US, often leading to abandonment of entire cities (Detroit being the leading example) as an old fashioned solution, or as the normal and rational workings of free market capitalism?
People leaving Detroit to live in other US cities are moving within one nation state, a country which is yes, largely based on free market capitalism.

The EU, for all its folie de grandeur of being a federalist superstate, is still, actually, a collection of nation states. So if people leave Latvia in droves, to work in Frankfurt, a whole nation, a whole history, a whole culture starts to die.

Mind you, we get hard working and chirpy barristas in our local Starbucks. So it isn't all bad.

Hooray for the free market capitalism of the EU and all that. Glad that you welcome it as someone on the left.
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