Will the UK ever "kamazi", back into the EU? Watch

Burton Bridge
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#61
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#61
(Original post by DJKL)
That will be part of the issue- supply chains inward plus sales outward. Even if the sales are to UK companies , nuts and bolts for the auto trade or pallets/packaging for fresh food exports, if these trades have cross border issues the problem will drop right down the UK supply chain.

I have no doubts larger companies will be better prepared, and will have deeper pockets to weather the storm, a multinational having disruption within its UK/EU based facilties will quite possibly survive, relying in the interim on its other facilities around the world, but those smaller, UK based companies ,without diversity, may have a limited time interval to adapt or die.

Of course the issues also apply to EU based companies but at least they on day one have access to alternative suppliers and customers in the EU, a much bigger market with more opportunities, UK companies, on day one, having no free trade agreements anywhere under a No Deal scenario, will be more limited re sourcing and supplying to the UK as their primary market.

No Deal is not great, unprepared No Deal is ten times worse.
I don't think no deal is ideal, personally I would like to see a trade deal at least in the short term however I understand the EU are looking after the union rather than the interests of their memberstates in my opinion.

The idea of signing a deal which ties us into laws we have no control over, limits future governments of any type making other deals is ludicrous. We had literally may as well remained a full member.

In any case suppliers and customers are totally different, the European members will be in a better place to find suppliers, within the EU. Pretending they can simply replace the UK's custom is a totally different situation

I don't believe we know what will happen, personally I think we need to revisit this topic in a year. I also think that remaining in the EU as before is even an option, life is what you make it and the same can be said for a country
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Vinny C
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
That's because isn't a question, I have nothing to answer it's you're opinion.

The Tony Blair statement is irrelevant it never was relevant, you brought it up why God only knows why? I was nearly pointing out You're wrong as usual.

Vinny your posts are like the ramblings of a madman.
It is far from my opinion... it's a myth, a conspiracy theory shared by many Brexiteers to avoid admitting it simply doesn't work.
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Burton Bridge
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Vinny C)
It is far from my opinion... it's a myth, a conspiracy theory shared by many Brexiteers to avoid admitting it simply doesn't work.
Vinny it's you're opinion, its not a conspiracy theory at all.

'The trick was in getting people to fall for their fantasies.' Opinion
'Human nature naturally opts for the land of milk and honey if offered, even if undeliverable.' Opinion
The latest fantasy (Opinion)
seems to be that the govt is deliberately messing up in order to reverse the outcome. Let's see... shall we go for accolade, ovations and cries of well done you Tories or shall we deliberately opt to be labelled incompetent buffoons unable to organise a stroll in the park? Hmm... and still Brexiteers believe the latter. Unbelievable! Rant style Opinion

If you have ran a business for 30 years which I'm finding difficult to believe, when you enter negotiations with people do you act on the way we have?
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DJKL
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Vinny it's you're opinion, its not a conspiracy theory at all.

'The trick was in getting people to fall for their fantasies.' Opinion
'Human nature naturally opts for the land of milk and honey if offered, even if undeliverable.' Opinion
The latest fantasy (Opinion)
seems to be that the govt is deliberately messing up in order to reverse the outcome. Let's see... shall we go for accolade, ovations and cries of well done you Tories or shall we deliberately opt to be labelled incompetent buffoons unable to organise a stroll in the park? Hmm... and still Brexiteers believe the latter. Unbelievable! Rant style Opinion

If you have ran a business for 30 years which I'm finding difficult to believe, when you enter negotiations with people do you act on the way we have?
The negotiation argument from business is flawed, if I am selling a development site and have a potential buyer, but he will not pay the price I believe it is worth, I can walk, there are likely other buyers. Same if I am buying, price for this site too much, I can walk, there are other sites I might buy.

But between the UK and EU, re the WA, there are no real alternatives, the choice is not our deal with them or another deal with others, it is our deal with them or no deal with them, that is where, in the real world of negotiating transactions, comparing Brexit negotiations to a business deal collapses due to lack of any real similarity.

The only point that makes them pause is the cost to them if they do not deal, but they appear to view the WA, without a backstop , as too expensive re their red lines, catch is we are still not correctly reading their signals.

Now it is possible they will blink but it is just as possible, maybe more possible, we will blink, or of course we have nobody blinks and we slide out on No Deal, but equating the negotiations to a business transactions, where there are alternatives for both sides, is flawed.
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ColinDent
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#65
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#65
(Original post by DJKL)
The negotiation argument from business is flawed, if I am selling a development site and have a potential buyer, but he will not pay the price I believe it is worth, I can walk, there are likely other buyers. Same if I am buying, price for this site too much, I can walk, there are other sites I might buy.

But between the UK and EU, re the WA, there are no real alternatives, the choice is not our deal with them or another deal with others, it is our deal with them or no deal with them, that is where, in the real world of negotiating transactions, comparing Brexit negotiations to a business deal collapses due to lack of any real similarity.

The only point that makes them pause is the cost to them if they do not deal, but they appear to view the WA, without a backstop , as too expensive re their red lines, catch is we are still not correctly reading their signals.

Now it is possible they will blink but it is just as possible, maybe more possible, we will blink, or of course we have nobody blinks and we slide out on No Deal, but equating the negotiations to a business transactions, where there are alternatives for both sides, is flawed.
Of course what is obvious is that if the no deal option is taken off the table then it is game set and match to the EU so it simply has to remain a possibility from a negotiating stance on our side.
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PilgrimOfTruth
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#66
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#66
(Original post by ColinDent)
Of course what is obvious is that if the no deal option is taken off the table then it is game set and match to the EU so it simply has to remain a possibility from a negotiating stance on our side.
Indeed, the NO DEAL option is understood to be the only possible way the UK will ever leave the EU.

NO DEAL is what the EU therefore fear more than anything because it DOES actually see the UK leave the EU.

The EU ARE DESPERATE FOR US NOT TO LEAVE

The EU ARE DESPERATE FOR US NOT TO GO DOWN THE NO DEAL ROUTE

Once we leave with No Deal, we are OUT ! Completely, irrevocably.

At that point all the bullsh*t posturing ceases and the EU then HAS to start playing ball with the UK.

The EU wants that 39 billion. The larger member states WANT our business and stand to lose BILLIONS if we simply cease trading. This includes Germany, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands and many more.

The stress that our leaving will put on the EU and its own control and management of the member states is immense. The EU is already imho crumbling. That's why they can not afford for us to leave in any shape or form. They ARE desperate and the 2 year farce, pantomime and fiasco we have seen played out underpins this.

They haven't offered the UK a Withdrawal Agreement. They should do, as it is part of the EU Treaty. We are allowed to leave with a Withdrawal Agreement. But the EU isn't offering one. It is only offering agreements we don't see us Withdraw, which keep the UK under EU rules and regulations, under their control, under their jurisdiction.

That is criminal. It's against the Treaties and it is a blatant assault on our democracy and democratic process. The EU simply does not respect our democratic system, our democratic and free choice to leave the EU. The EU doesn't care one iota about us or about the UK people. It cares only about itself, its increasing power and position on a global stage. More reason for us to leave.

Everyone needs to wake up and see what is transpiring here.

There is ONLY ONE WAY we are going to be able to leave and that is via NO DEAL.

Hoping, waiting, dreaming for some kind of super deal from the EU is an exercise in both futility and denial. The EU IS NOT going to let us leave.

Thus we MUST leave of our own accord via NO DEAL and do it as soon as possible.

Our government is seemingly under the control of the EU which is unfortunate. May has deliberately wasted 2 years tabling the stupid "deal" that the EU has given her to peddle. She should have rejected it from the outset and insisted on an actual WITHDRAWal Agreement.

That she didn't, highlights who she is really working for, and it most certainly isn't the British people.

We have a crisis. Our democratic system is under fire and our government has already been infiltrated with stooges.

If we get any subsequent vote on HOW we should leave then we must vote NO DEAL and get out while we can. If we don't the door will be firmly bolted behind us and there will never again be an opportunity to leave. There will never again be a referendum on staying or leaving. This was a one time choice.

We must see it through

We must support NO DEAL
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Vinny C
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#67
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#67
(Original post by ColinDent)
Of course what is obvious is that if the no deal option is taken off the table then it is game set and match to the EU so it simply has to remain a possibility from a negotiating stance on our side.
Yep... we may have scuppered ourselves but unless you help us stay afloat we'll do our best to drag you down with us. No wonder Tusk damns us to Hell. Can't say I blame him.
Last edited by Vinny C; 5 days ago
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Burton Bridge
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#68
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#68
Pmsl Vinny you talk like the membership of the EU brought us endless pots of gold, riches, rainbows and a stream of beautiful mermaids.

You're always claiming Leavers have rose coloured specs on while chasing unicorns. I think you might need to take a look in the mirror and/or remove you're own EU provided rose-tinted specs!
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 5 days ago
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Burton Bridge
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#69
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#69
(Original post by DJKL)
The negotiation argument from business is flawed, if I am selling a development site and have a potential buyer, but he will not pay the price I believe it is worth, I can walk, there are likely other buyers. Same if I am buying, price for this site too much, I can walk, there are other sites I might buy.

But between the UK and EU, re the WA, there are no real alternatives, the choice is not our deal with them or another deal with others, it is our deal with them or no deal with them, that is where, in the real world of negotiating transactions, comparing Brexit negotiations to a business deal collapses due to lack of any real similarity.

The only point that makes them pause is the cost to them if they do not deal, but they appear to view the WA, without a backstop , as too expensive re their red lines, catch is we are still not correctly reading their signals.

Now it is possible they will blink but it is just as possible, maybe more possible, we will blink, or of course we have nobody blinks and we slide out on No Deal, but equating the negotiations to a business transactions, where there are alternatives for both sides, is flawed.
I dont think you're correct.

The rules of negotiating are the rules of negotiation, they don't change. I take you're point about the difference here but I don't buy it! The truth as I see it is the there is other options, there are other countries we can arrange trade deals with, more importantly we should be looking at becoming self sufficient as a nation. The average person, small to medium sized business and the local economy would benefit from increasing manufacturing in this country, government backed plants, certainly food manufactureing should all be done in house. Every 'trade deal' takes money out of our economy and into forigen bank accounts, it simply does.

Anyway going off topic however options are available unfortunately the elite wish to carry on with the current model of capitalism that is working exceptionally well for the wealthy and not very well for anyone else.
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DJKL
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#70
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#70
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I dont think you're correct.

The rules of negotiating are the rules of negotiation, they don't change. I take you're point about the difference here but I don't buy it! The truth as I see it is the there is other options, there are other countries we can arrange trade deals with, more importantly we should be looking at becoming self sufficient as a nation. The average person, small to medium sized business and the local economy would benefit from increasing manufacturing in this country, government backed plants, certainly food manufactureing should all be done in house. Every 'trade deal' takes money out of our economy and into forigen bank accounts, it simply does.

Anyway going off topic however options are available unfortunately the elite wish to carry on with the current model of capitalism that is working exceptionally well for the wealthy and not very well for anyone else.
Good luck with growing oranges, so long tuna.

There are no rules of negotiating, you negotiate around the particular transaction. Other trade deals do not substitute, you wanted them as well, in addition, though I will say care is needed re order they are done as once some are in place settling the additional ones can get trickier as the later ones tend to need to conform with the earlier. Think of trade deals as Pokemon, in an ideal world you may want to catch 'em all, losing one is losing one irrespective of how many others you may get before or after, they do not substitute but are discrete.

Trade deals can and do add value added, forget the one side wins the other loses narrative, that is economically illiterate, generally trade deals benefit both parties, if they did not they never would take place- money may leave the UK but goods arrive, there is a balance. If you consider goods and money as equal , which for the purpose of trade they are, there is no issue. If I say swapped some UK fish for French cheese, no money leaves the UK, do you have your aversion to that trade? If so why? Why is such bad for the UK?

There can be arguments for protectionism, for producing even when it would add to everone's standard of living to import, essentials, items which a nation prefers to have under its control, infant industry arguments, however generally, ceteris paribus, trade makes the lives of a population better and more prosperous.
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ColinDent
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Vinny C)
Yep... we may have scuppered ourselves but unless you help us stay afloat we'll do our best to drag you down with us. No wonder Tusk damns us to Hell. Can't say I blame him.
Nope, parliament is trying to hamstring us.
And as I've said on the relevant thread Tusk can damn whomever he wishes to hell, it's a fictional place so he may as well be damning people to Azkaban, he and his ilk would be joining us anyway what with the poverty they''ve helped cause around the world for their own self interests.
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Vinny C
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#72
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#72
(Original post by ColinDent)
Nope, parliament is trying to hamstring us.
And as I've said on the relevant thread Tusk can damn whomever he wishes to hell, it's a fictional place so he may as well be damning people to Azkaban, he and his ilk would be joining us anyway what with the poverty they''ve helped cause around the world for their own self interests.
Sure... Parliament wishes to lose public confidence and votes. Do stop blaming everyone and anything else.
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