Pregnant ISIS bride wishes to return to the UK Watch

Fullofsurprises
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Rakas21)
Does it matter?

One right does not make up for years of wrongdoing and regret does not absolve one of criminal responsibility.
It might not matter in the bigger picture, but I was referencing the denunciations of her statements and suggesting that (as is likely) she is probably fearful of the Jihadis having revenge on her if she condemns them too much.
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Rakas21
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#62
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(Original post by Little Popcorns)
Her speaking on he news this morning. I get why she’s a victim but at the moment her arrogance and lack of remorse for anything doesn’t make me feel like she can be ‘saved’ by us if she comes here. Seems like she’d need to be detained here all the time if she were to come back. I would not want her walking free around the streets.
Although as a Conservative i am wholly a believer in the rule of law, justice by trial and generally against acts of vigilantism. I wonder if the state were to allow her freedom, whether she could ever be safe and whether (if we are honest) we should even try keep her safe.
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Rakas21
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#63
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It might not matter in the bigger picture, but I was referencing the denunciations of her statements and suggesting that (as is likely) she is probably fearful of the Jihadis having revenge on her if she condemns them too much.
I probably agree with your opinion here with regards to the interview (not really important beyond a cry to return). Out of interest, do you believe she has committed a crime and what crime would you go so far as charging her with if so (are you sympathetic to a charge of treason).
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Little Popcorns
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Victims of cults usually are taken to counsellors (they sometimes call them 'deprogrammers') expert in the cult and its workings - often ex-cultees themselves - who can help the person recover from the cult. There are ex-Jihadis actively touring the UK and other countries working against the cult.

People are reacting to this story with a desire for punishment, but in fact these are just naive and credulous young Muslims swept up in a major cult operation and pretty much defenseless to resist it.
I do understand that and I would of course like everyone to be safe and included in our society, if that can be achieved through whatever remedy then I’m fine with that...
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Rakas21)
I probably agree with your opinion here with regards to the interview (not really important beyond a cry to return). Out of interest, do you believe she has committed a crime and what crime would you go so far as charging her with if so (are you sympathetic to a charge of treason).
If there's evidence she has committed crimes, she should be charged (although it remains unclear that these come under UK jurisdiction if she did them out there - it would normally be a matter for local justice and extradition - nobody knows what to do when it's a failed state), but her crime appears superficially to have been to go and live in Syria with some bad men - hardly the traditional stuff of a treason trial. I think it's just propaganda to call for treason charges frankly and I suspect that as usual it's motivated by anti-Islamic rhetoric and not common sense.

I think charging them with a crime is pointless. If they are sent to prison, in all likelihood they will end up hating this country even more and very conceivably falling back under the influence of other Jihadis in the prison system. The government and the legal system are not acting smart about how to deal with this, they are applying (and all western countries are stuck in the same rut) false criminalisation models to what is an ideological movement which needs contesting on an ideological level. The government have given some support to the valuable ex-cult people I mentioned who work against Jihadi Islamism, but not nearly enough - some of them were interviewed on a radio programme not long ago and they sounded isolated and despairing.

The only plus of charging and sending to prison on whatever charge is the alleged one of disincentivising others, but the Jihad (at least to Syria/Iraq) seems to be largely over anyway and there is no evidence that the phenomenon of young British Muslims falling under their spell is as big a thing now as it was 5-10 years ago.

We have to get much more serious about our dealings with extremist Islam in the UK (and Europe generally) and I doubt that regularly sticking a bunch of them in prison will achieve much.
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999tigger
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Notoriety)
We have a reservation for naturalised persons; we don't have one for British-born (as it were).




In the context of naturalised persons, s40A of the British Nationality Act 1981 provides the conditions. The recent cases, as far as I can see (and this isn't my area), seem to depend on S40A(c): "the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory."
Wow what a pain just about to submit my response and it crashed.

Quick version. id have to read up on it , but it seems:
The UK can and has removed citizenship if they have another citzienship to fall back on. Thats been challenged and denied under the ECHR.

Its been challenged again under wider international law. At least to the extent of making someone stateless. We have to clear up our own mess, but it would be nice if we could delay them from returning and or they were locked up on foreign jails. Hundreds have already returned. This cropped up again in connection with 2 of the beatles. Ironic they are claiming every protection from the UK under human rights,when they went out to join an organisation that has no respect for the rule of law and was intent on destroying this country.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...uropean-ruling

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45935524

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018...igh-court-told

But its being challenged.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8645241.html
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999tigger
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#67
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(Original post by Rakas21)
I probably agree with your opinion here with regards to the interview (not really important beyond a cry to return). Out of interest, do you believe she has committed a crime and what crime would you go so far as charging her with if so (are you sympathetic to a charge of treason).
I think she would pose a danger and will cost millions to keep under surveillance. Only takes her one day to decide she wants to run people over or go mad with a knife. Not sure they would charge her with treason as she was 15 when she went out plus they have the issue of the hundreds of fighters that have returned to the UK.
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Rakas21
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#68
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
If there's evidence she has committed crimes, she should be charged (although it remains unclear that these come under UK jurisdiction if she did them out there - it would normally be a matter for local justice and extradition - nobody knows what to do when it's a failed state), but her crime appears superficially to have been to go and live in Syria with some bad men - hardly the traditional stuff of a treason trial. I think it's just propaganda to call for treason charges frankly and I suspect that as usual it's motivated by anti-Islamic rhetoric and not common sense.

I think charging them with a crime is pointless. If they are sent to prison, in all likelihood they will end up hating this country even more and very conceivably falling back under the influence of other Jihadis in the prison system. The government and the legal system are not acting smart about how to deal with this, they are applying (and all western countries are stuck in the same rut) false criminalisation models to what is an ideological movement which needs contesting on an ideological level. The government have given some support to the valuable ex-cult people I mentioned who work against Jihadi Islamism, but not nearly enough - some of them were interviewed on a radio programme not long ago and they sounded isolated and despairing.

The only plus of charging and sending to prison on whatever charge is the alleged one of disincentivising others, but the Jihad (at least to Syria/Iraq) seems to be largely over anyway and there is no evidence that the phenomenon of young British Muslims falling under their spell is as big a thing now as it was 5-10 years ago.

We have to get much more serious about our dealings with extremist Islam in the UK (and Europe generally) and I doubt that regularly sticking a bunch of them in prison will achieve much.
Well on the first count she has joined a terrorist group, not a state (we did not recognize ISIS as a state) but failed or not is it not enough that she joined an ascribed terrorist group at all, do you not believe that joining ISIS in itself is a crime given that they have taken credit for acts of terrorism on both UK and foreign soil.

While your second paragraph is clearly well meaning and should be considered as a means of prevention i do honestly consider your avocation of these people being relatively free as possibly the most dangerous thing you have ever said. Solitary confinement is an option.
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Fullofsurprises
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#69
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Well on the first count she has joined a terrorist group, not a state (we did not recognize ISIS as a state) but failed or not is it not enough that she joined an ascribed terrorist group at all, do you not believe that joining ISIS in itself is a crime given that they have taken credit for acts of terrorism on both UK and foreign soil.

While your second paragraph is clearly well meaning and should be considered as a means of prevention i do honestly consider your avocation of these people being relatively free as possibly the most dangerous thing you have ever said. Solitary confinement is an option.
I'm not sure that she did 'join a terrorist group' - do they have membership rolls? What she actually seems to have done is be gulled into thinking she would have a glamorous Islamic revolutionary young handsome guy to be with and so much better than the crappy arranged marriage her parents no doubt had in mind for her here. I'm only guessing this is the case and yes, if she joined them and helped them in their murder campaigns in any meaningful way, then yes, I would advocate she face criminal charges for that and investigation should happen anyway - and it sounds as if that is what is going on.

As for dangerously leaving Jihadis to wonder about, surely it depends on what they've done? I doubt the country has the resources to monitor all the returnees from Syria/Iraq (and actually that's been proven to be the case by events) so are we advocating some sort of mass indefinite internment? And then what? Apart from any other consideration, what is the legal position, this being a country (allegedly) of laws? No declaration of war has ever been made and we are talking about British citizens who went to another country, did horrible stuff, then came back here. In all probability, they have committed no crime here and if they have there, they should be tried there - except there is no viable legal system or functioning law there.
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Occitanie
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#70
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(Original post by LeapingLucy)
I'm not denying that she's a threat.

My question is - why is it better for her to be a threat to Syrian people than it is for her to be a threat to British people? Are you implying that Syrian lives are worth less than British lives?

Islamic State killed and tortured huge numbers of Syrians - the captured fighters she has seen being executed were probably Syrians.

She's not a Syrian national - she's a British national. Why should she be Syria's problem?
He’s not implying Syrian lives matter less than British lives.

Obviously he’s British and concerned like the rest of us that a woman who said she feels no remorse and that a beheading “didn’t faze her” wants to come back. Aren’t you?!

Should we run the risk of her committing terror offences in the UK and butchering our civilians?

I’m quite astounded that you don’t see the point he’s making.
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Occitanie
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#71
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I'm not sure that she did 'join a terrorist group' - do they have membership rolls? What she actually seems to have done is be gulled into thinking she would have a glamorous Islamic revolutionary young handsome guy to be with and so much better than the crappy arranged marriage her parents no doubt had in mind for her here. I'm only guessing this is the case and yes, if she joined them and helped them in their murder campaigns in any meaningful way, then yes, I would advocate she face criminal charges for that and investigation should happen anyway - and it sounds as if that is what is going on.

As for dangerously leaving Jihadis to wonder about, surely it depends on what they've done? I doubt the country has the resources to monitor all the returnees from Syria/Iraq (and actually that's been proven to be the case by events) so are we advocating some sort of mass indefinite internment? And then what? Apart from any other consideration, what is the legal position, this being a country (allegedly) of laws? No declaration of war has ever been made and we are talking about British citizens who went to another country, did horrible stuff, then came back here. In all probability, they have committed no crime here and if they have there, they should be tried there - except there is no viable legal system or functioning law there.
Honestly, it just sounds like you’re trying to make excuses for “moderate” Jihadis who din du nofin wron...

She made her choice, along with the other two of her school friends. She has to face the consequences.
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Occitanie
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#72
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I can't help wondering what her situation is in Syria - is she still under the thumb of ISIS there? If so, she could hardly say she hates them now. But if so, why are they allowing her to leave?

EDIT: I've just read she's in a refugee camp, not still with IS, but I suppose she might still be afraid of retribution by them.
Why are you making excuses for her?

I’d almost consider you an apologist. You’re walking a fine line.
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NickAlex12
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Best to strip her of her citizenship and not let her come back. She doesn’t even seem to regret it. She’s still a terrorist supporter and there’s no way the people of this country will ever support her coming back.
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LeapingLucy
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#74
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(Original post by Occitanie)
He’s not implying Syrian lives matter less than British lives.

Obviously he’s British and concerned like the rest of us that a woman who said she feels no remorse and that a beheading “didn’t faze her” wants to come back. Aren’t you?!

Should we run the risk of her committing terror offences in the UK and butchering our civilians?

I’m quite astounded that you don’t see the point he’s making.
I see entirely the point he’s trying to make, but the group she joined was just as big a danger to Syrians as it was to westerners. In fact, ISIS has probably killed far more Syrians.

If she is so dangerous, why is it right to leave her to be a danger to Syrians, rather than bringing her back to the country she is actually a citizen of to face the justice system? It’s not like she’s just going to be free to walk the streets.

She is not a Syrian citizen. Syria has no responsibility to her. By saying that she should be left in Syria you are saying that Syrian lives are worth less.
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Andrew97
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#75
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My preferences for these IS chaps

1. Drone strike
2. They perish in some other way
3. Captured by the Kurdish Milita, SDF or the Yazidis. We don’t try to get them back
4. They are dual citizens and we revoke our one
5. Life in prison in the U.K, no contact with other prisoners
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SoulfulTwist
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#76
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#76
Feel for the child.
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Occitanie
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#77
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(Original post by LeapingLucy)
I see entirely the point he’s trying to make, but the group she joined was just as big a danger to Syrians as it was to westerners. In fact, ISIS has probably killed far more Syrians.

If she is so dangerous, why is it right to leave her to be a danger to Syrians, rather than bringing her back to the country she is actually a citizen of to face the justice system? It’s not like she’s just going to be free to walk the streets.

She is not a Syrian citizen. Syria has no responsibility to her. By saying that she should be left in Syria you are saying that Syrian lives are worth less.
“By saying that she should be left in Syria you are saying that Syrian lives are worth less.” - lol what?!

Beside all of the whataboutery in your reply, I want to ask you whether you’re British.

What kind of idea will this give to other Jihadis wanting to come back to the UK or their respective countries in Europe?

She wanted to leave, she has no remorse, she’s still clearly supportive of ISIS and their ideology, yet we’re on the brink of at least considering to let her back into the country she turned her back on?!
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Occitanie
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(Original post by SoulfulTwist)
Feel for the child.
I hope you’re joking.

Nvm, I gather you’re talking about her unborn child.
Last edited by Occitanie; 1 month ago
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Andrew97
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#79
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(Original post by SoulfulTwist)
Feel for the child.
I can see that point, although by connection it is also a risk. Without wishing to sound callous, if she makes it back to the U.K. with the child she should not be allowed to bring it up
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Fullofsurprises
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#80
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(Original post by Occitanie)
I’d almost consider you an apologist. You’re walking a fine line.
Is this some sort of threat? It sounds like you believe in mob justice. You have no clue what the real story is here, or about her. you are just braying for vengeance against a young girl who may well have simply been fooled into going there.
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