LGBT group drop Navratilova after ‘transphobic comments’ Watch

Andrew97
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#1
https://news.sky.com/story/martina-n...ments-11642632


The former tennis star said allowing trans women to compete in women’s sport was cheating in a piece for the Sunday Times.

Do we think this is fair?
Are the trans lobby too powerful considering their size?
Was this baltant transphobia?

This also comes at a time where the IAAF wants to put restrictions in place on Testosterone levels in female sport. https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views...etics-11640789
0
reply
Decahedron
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#2
Report 4 weeks ago
#2
I think both sides have a point.

Yes it would be unfair for formerly male tennis players to compete in female competitions as they generally fitter, I'm not too caught up with the science so that is for governing bodies to decide.

However her comments about men taking hormones and then switching back when they have earned their money does perpetuate a dangerous myth that those transitioning can be doing it for personal gain. That is the transphobic part.
Last edited by Decahedron; 4 weeks ago
5
reply
Dandaman1
Badges: 17
Rep:
?
#3
Report 4 weeks ago
#3
(Original post by Decahedron)
I think both sides have a point.

Yes it would be unfair for formerly male tennis players to compete in female competitions as they generally fitter, I'm not too caught up with the science so that is for governing bodies to decide.

However her comments about men taking hormones and then switching back when they have earned their money does perpetuate a dangerous myth that those transitioning can be doing it for personal gain. That is the transphobic part.
I don't think the potential exploitability of allowing people to take androgens should be disregarded. There are people out there who may abuse the system in pursuit of titles and prize money. Don't write it off.

Professional sporting bodies should take a leaf out of Powerlifting USA's book and simply prohibit anyone taking androgens or competing against the opposite biological sex.
1
reply
Just my opinion
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#4
Report 4 weeks ago
#4
She has some balls standing up to the translobby. Like most pressure groups on the left they're not happy until they have destroyed you and taken your income as well. It's why most people that upset them, unlike Navratilova, will issue a grovelling apology.
Last edited by Just my opinion; 4 weeks ago
0
reply
Decahedron
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#5
Report 4 weeks ago
#5
(Original post by Dandaman1)
I don't think the potential exploitability of allowing people to take androgens should be disregarded. There are people out there who may abuse the system in pursuit of titles and prize money. Don't write it off.

Professional sporting bodies should take a leaf out of Powerlifting USA's book and simply prohibit anyone taking androgens or competing against the opposite biological sex.
I would imagine that in order to enter into a female tournament you would have to be declared legally female by your residing country. I know in the UK that process is fairly rigorous. So in order to exploit the system they would first have to dupe the legal process which I can't imagine is easy. Only then would they be able to start exploiting the sport they have chosen.

Are people capable of doing all that? Possibly. Is it likely? No.
0
reply
fallen_acorns
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#6
Report 4 weeks ago
#6
(Original post by Decahedron)
I would imagine that in order to enter into a female tournament you would have to be declared legally female by your residing country. I know in the UK that process is fairly rigorous. So in order to exploit the system they would first have to dupe the legal process which I can't imagine is easy. Only then would they be able to start exploiting the sport they have chosen.

Are people capable of doing all that? Possibly. Is it likely? No.
its really not that hard to do actually - you need to live for 2 years as your desired gender, demonstraite that you will continue to live as that gender, and have a diagnosis for gender dysphoria,

Gaining a diagnosis is easy.. declaring that you will stay in that gender for the rest of your life requires no actual proof - the only hard thing for someone wanting to fake it, would be to live as the other gender for 2 years.

I think this situation though, is more that people are forseeing potential problems, rather than identifying ones that exist now. As it stands, the number of transgender atheletes competing against women in high-level sports is so low that its a non-issue... BUT it could be an issue. And that's why atheletes and sports bodies are acting on it now. They are seeing that the attitudes are changing, and that for the first time, trans-althletes are boarding on acceptable to the public. They are still not quite there yet, but we are approaching the point where they will be accepted if the current trends maintain.

Once acceptance is there from the public, the possibility for abusing the situation opens up. All it then takes is one struggling male college tennis player, failing to gain recognition in the mens game.. to think:

"All I have to do is lie to a few doctors, wear some different clothes, and go through a few legal processes.. and I can be a millionaire. I can be internationally famous, be considered a modern icon of diversity.. dominate a major international sport.. and I don't even have to have any surgery, so I can reverse it all later after my playing days are over"

Most men would never do it.. but it doesn't need most men. All you would need is 1. a single slightly un-hinged male tennis player, who wants glory/money/power over everything else.. and click - the entire female tennis scene is ruined.

- It hasn't happened yet, because the public acceptance isn't there.. but it will eventually, and that's why female-sports bodies are now acting to trying and safeguard their athletes before it does.
0
reply
gjd800
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#7
Report 4 weeks ago
#7
The background to Natratilova's comments is pretty much Rachel McKinnon (with whom she had a very public spat) and Hannah Mouncey. Look em up.
0
reply
Student-95
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#8
Report 4 weeks ago
#8
Nothing transphobic about that at all. M to F trans people would have an unfair advantage against biological women. Trans people should only be allowed to compete against men or other trans people.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
1
reply
Decahedron
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#9
Report 4 weeks ago
#9
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
its really not that hard to do actually - you need to live for 2 years as your desired gender, demonstraite that you will continue to live as that gender, and have a diagnosis for gender dysphoria,

Gaining a diagnosis is easy.. declaring that you will stay in that gender for the rest of your life requires no actual proof - the only hard thing for someone wanting to fake it, would be to live as the other gender for 2 years.

I think this situation though, is more that people are forseeing potential problems, rather than identifying ones that exist now. As it stands, the number of transgender atheletes competing against women in high-level sports is so low that its a non-issue... BUT it could be an issue. And that's why atheletes and sports bodies are acting on it now. They are seeing that the attitudes are changing, and that for the first time, trans-althletes are boarding on acceptable to the public. They are still not quite there yet, but we are approaching the point where they will be accepted if the current trends maintain.

Once acceptance is there from the public, the possibility for abusing the situation opens up. All it then takes is one struggling male college tennis player, failing to gain recognition in the mens game.. to think:

"All I have to do is lie to a few doctors, wear some different clothes, and go through a few legal processes.. and I can be a millionaire. I can be internationally famous, be considered a modern icon of diversity.. dominate a major international sport.. and I don't even have to have any surgery, so I can reverse it all later after my playing days are over"

Most men would never do it.. but it doesn't need most men. All you would need is 1. a single slightly un-hinged male tennis player, who wants glory/money/power over everything else.. and click - the entire female tennis scene is ruined.

- It hasn't happened yet, because the public acceptance isn't there.. but it will eventually, and that's why female-sports bodies are now acting to trying and safeguard their athletes before it does.
There are lots of things that could be an issue but it needs to be approached sensibly. Banning all trans-athletes from their desired sport is not a sensible approach it is a knee jerk reaction to a problem that doesn't even exist.

The Olympic committee seem to have set a pretty good advice on how it allows male to female athletes to compete. Based on science and evidence not feelings and outrage.
0
reply
Abu 'Abdullah
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#10
Report 4 weeks ago
#10
Thats not transphobia. That's true!

Allowing a trans 'woman' to partake in a womens competition is really just allowing a man disguised as a woman to partake!
0
reply
fallen_acorns
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#11
Report 4 weeks ago
#11
(Original post by Decahedron)
There are lots of things that could be an issue but it needs to be approached sensibly. Banning all trans-athletes from their desired sport is not a sensible approach it is a knee jerk reaction to a problem that doesn't even exist.

The Olympic committee seem to have set a pretty good advice on how it allows male to female athletes to compete. Based on science and evidence not feelings and outrage.
first - I am happy to have a chat about the science.

the link you posted mentions that the new guidelines are that MtF athletes must be undertaking HRT and have a testosterone level in the acceptable range.

Show me one scientific paper that proves that HRT for MtF individuals reduces bone density or structure to that of the average female.

If that can be demonstrated, then yes - the rules that the Olympic committee would be grounded in science and evidence. As it would be clearly proven that a MtF individual undertaking HRT, has no physical advantage over a cis female athelete.
---

Yes - your right, there are a lot of things that could happen.. that's why sensible people and organizations mitigate and plan for them before they become a problem. The fact that it only exists as a potential problem - for now - doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed. For example, its very sensible for a school to have a no-knife policy, even if no student has ever brought a knife to school.

As for knee-jerk reaction, its not really is it? There are a few outcomes facing female sport:

1, segregate mtf athletes from cis female athletes
2, integrate mtf athletes with cis female athletes, and hope that no cis female athletes dominate major sports, and they stay small in number, and limited to minor events/sports
3, integrate mtf athletes and as their number grows and as acceptance grows, they go to dominate almost all female sports
4, integrate all sports together, and stop segregating by sex - meaning all trans athletes can compete with everyone. But all cis women are now uncompetative, unless quoted in

Only option 1+2, maintain female sports in their current format. 3, seems far more likely then 2, given how the trans movement is developing.. 4 would be true equality for all, but would come at the cost of female sport.

There is nothing kneejerk about going through the options, and concluding that option 1 is the best course of action.. its just a considered decision taking into account all the possibilities that could unfold.

As I said in my previous post in this thread - it would take a combination of 1 competent mtf tennis player, and public acceptance of trans-athletes, to end competitive female tenis for a decade. It hasn't happened yet - but once there is enough public acceptance there, its just a waiting game until the right individual comes along and puts the situation into action - whether because they are legitimately trans or not.
0
reply
Dandaman1
Badges: 17
Rep:
?
#12
Report 4 weeks ago
#12
(Original post by Decahedron)
I would imagine that in order to enter into a female tournament you would have to be declared legally female by your residing country. I know in the UK that process is fairly rigorous. So in order to exploit the system they would first have to dupe the legal process which I can't imagine is easy. Only then would they be able to start exploiting the sport they have chosen.

Are people capable of doing all that? Possibly. Is it likely? No.
Androgens aren't taken by biological males - or at least they aren't supposed to be. They're taken by females transitioning to 'males' (and afterward). It's essentially a steroid, but it can be allowed for transgender athletes. People (potentially male or female) may try and fool the system by claiming to be transgender or transitioning, for example, if they test positive for elevated levels. People try to do this in sport already with certain medicines. The allowances for trans athletes just opens up more avenues for deception, fraud, and abuse of medical loopholes.

Powerlifting USA and some other organisations make no allowances for taking androgens because somebody in a competitive sport shouldn't be on androgens full stop.
0
reply
Underscore__
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#13
Report 4 weeks ago
#13
(Original post by Decahedron)
I think both sides have a point.

Yes it would be unfair for formerly male tennis players to compete in female competitions as they generally fitter, I'm not too caught up with the science so that is for governing bodies to decide.

However her comments about men taking hormones and then switching back when they have earned their money does perpetuate a dangerous myth that those transitioning can be doing it for personal gain. That is the transphobic part.
It’s not transphobic though, there is nothing to stop that from happening. What you have to consider is there are millions of pounds at stake; if you’re a male tennis player who’s barely in the top 100 why not go and play against women and challenge for grand slams? Why not become a UFC champion or an Olympic gold medalist? It would perhaps be transphobic if she had targeted her comments at a particular individual but saying the possibility of exploitation exists is not transphobic at all
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
Dez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#14
Report 3 weeks ago
#14
(Original post by Underscore__)
It’s not transphobic though, there is nothing to stop that from happening. What you have to consider is there are millions of pounds at stake; if you’re a male tennis player who’s barely in the top 100 why not go and play against women and challenge for grand slams? Why not become a UFC champion or an Olympic gold medalist? It would perhaps be transphobic if she had targeted her comments at a particular individual but saying the possibility of exploitation exists is not transphobic at all
It's a massive overreaction, though. Nothing like this has ever happened and most trans individuals just want to live normal lives. Saying they should be entirely excluded from sport just because they're trans, just in case one of them decides to turn pro to game the system is pretty ridiculous.
3
reply
Underscore__
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#15
Report 3 weeks ago
#15
(Original post by Dez)
It's a massive overreaction, though. Nothing like this has ever happened and most trans individuals just want to live normal lives. Saying they should be entirely excluded from sport just because they're trans, just in case one of them decides to turn pro to game the system is pretty ridiculous.
But this is very new, it’s not been long since trans people started competing in sport against the gender that they identify as rather than their biological sex. To suggest that because it hasn’t happened yet it’s an overreaction to point out that it could be exploited is wrong.

Biological men competing against biological women gives them an unfair advantage. Trans people shouldn’t be excluded from sport, they should have to compete against men.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
Dez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#16
Report 3 weeks ago
#16
(Original post by Underscore__)
But this is very new, it’s not been long since trans people started competing in sport against the gender that they identify as rather than their biological sex. To suggest that because it hasn’t happened yet it’s an overreaction to point out that it could be exploited is wrong.
Even if it does happen (and I guess at some point it might), it would still be an overreaction. Hundreds, perhaps even thousands of athletes cheat by using steroids each and every year, compared to the impact of that on sports the impact of a few trans individuals is going to be extremely limited. I do think professional sports need to be careful about who they admit, but for sporting in general I see no reason whatsoever to exclude trans people.

(Original post by Underscore__)
Biological men competing against biological women gives them an unfair advantage. Trans people shouldn’t be excluded from sport, they should have to compete against men.
Do you think you know what you mean by "biological" men or women?

Again, I don't see why someone should be excluded from playing sports competitively for being trans when there are far worse concerns when it comes to cheating that we do little to nothing about. It just strikes me as hypocritical and biased.
2
reply
Student-95
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#17
Report 3 weeks ago
#17
(Original post by Dez)
Do you think you know what you mean by "biological" men or women?

Again, I don't see why someone should be excluded from playing sports competitively for being trans when there are far worse concerns when it comes to cheating that we do little to nothing about. It just strikes me as hypocritical and biased.
They shouldn't be excluded from all sport, they should just be excluded from competing against people they have an unfair advantage over. Nothing wrong with them competing against men or other trans people.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
SpaceTimeDoggo
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#18
Report 3 weeks ago
#18
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
its really not that hard to do actually - you need to live for 2 years as your desired gender, demonstraite that you will continue to live as that gender, and have a diagnosis for gender dysphoria,

Gaining a diagnosis is easy.. declaring that you will stay in that gender for the rest of your life requires no actual proof - the only hard thing for someone wanting to fake it, would be to live as the other gender for 2 years.

I think this situation though, is more that people are forseeing potential problems, rather than identifying ones that exist now. As it stands, the number of transgender atheletes competing against women in high-level sports is so low that its a non-issue... BUT it could be an issue. And that's why atheletes and sports bodies are acting on it now. They are seeing that the attitudes are changing, and that for the first time, trans-althletes are boarding on acceptable to the public. They are still not quite there yet, but we are approaching the point where they will be accepted if the current trends maintain.

Once acceptance is there from the public, the possibility for abusing the situation opens up. All it then takes is one struggling male college tennis player, failing to gain recognition in the mens game.. to think:

"All I have to do is lie to a few doctors, wear some different clothes, and go through a few legal processes.. and I can be a millionaire. I can be internationally famous, be considered a modern icon of diversity.. dominate a major international sport.. and I don't even have to have any surgery, so I can reverse it all later after my playing days are over"

Most men would never do it.. but it doesn't need most men. All you would need is 1. a single slightly un-hinged male tennis player, who wants glory/money/power over everything else.. and click - the entire female tennis scene is ruined.

- It hasn't happened yet, because the public acceptance isn't there.. but it will eventually, and that's why female-sports bodies are now acting to trying and safeguard their athletes before it does.
The problem with your point there is that just because a formerly male tennis player decided to transition so they'd find it easier competing doesn't mean that they'll win against all the women they play, if they were good enough to ruin the female tennis scene then they'll likely be successful in the male category as well.
1
reply
fallen_acorns
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#19
Report 3 weeks ago
#19
(Original post by SpaceTimeDoggo)
The problem with your point there is that just because a formerly male tennis player decided to transition so they'd find it easier competing doesn't mean that they'll win against all the women they play, if they were good enough to ruin the female tennis scene then they'll likely be successful in the male category as well.
except that by all credible accounts/matches played between men and women, the consensus has always been that a man ranked in the hundreds, would beat the no.1 woman. There are multiple accounts of matches ending in a similar way, and multiple accounts of female players admiting that they would be crushed by lower-ranked men. There are physical advantages that are just to big to overcome. Yes among the average man and woman there isn't a huge difference between ability, but by the time you get to the extremes, the differnce between the best male players, and the best female players is huge.

see this if you want to read more:
https://www.quora.com/Which-ranking-...rence-Shanet-1
0
reply
Underscore__
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#20
Report 3 weeks ago
#20
Re the first paragraph (which the app doesn’t quote for some reason):

Why do you think we don’t do anything about steroid use? There’s plenty done to combat steroids. Even if there was nothing found to stop PED use that doesn’t add weight to your argument: because one form of cheating isn’t prevented you can’t ban a different one

(Original post by Dez)
Do you think you know what you mean by "biological" men or women?

Again, I don't see why someone should be excluded from playing sports competitively for being trans when there are far worse concerns when it comes to cheating that we do little to nothing about. It just strikes me as hypocritical and biased.
I mean male and female. Again, trans people shouldn’t be prevented from participating in sport but they should have to compete against men or each other as either way they would have an advantage over women. It’s not hypocritical to say ban one fair advantage because I’ve never said that steroids should be allowed.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Where do you need more help?

Which Uni should I go to? (89)
16.57%
How successful will I become if I take my planned subjects? (55)
10.24%
How happy will I be if I take this career? (96)
17.88%
How do I achieve my dream Uni placement? (81)
15.08%
What should I study to achieve my dream career? (54)
10.06%
How can I be the best version of myself? (162)
30.17%

Watched Threads

View All