Why are Audi, BMW and Mercedes popular in uk? Watch

Arran90
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#21
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(Original post by Jono*)
some of the compact Mercs for example the a class are pretty good so I disagree there
I have held the view that if a manufacturer of large prestigious saloons starts sticking its badge on compact cars then it incurs the risk of downgrading the brand. A bit like how Rover stuck its badge on the 200 back in the 1980s, followed by the Metro, had by the 1990s clearly shifted the brand from prestigious to commodity. Conversely, Toyota created the Lexus badge for its large luxury saloons sold in Europe and North America as a marketing gimmick to increase the prestige of what was previously the Toyota Crown.

I even think that BMW aren't as exclusive as they were back in the 1980s with the E28 and E30. After 2000 the owner of an E46 3 series was more likely to be a mundane office worker from Basingstoke than a solicitor, a successful businessman, or a yuppie who were the original drivers of E30s. In other words, the sort of person who would be driving a Vauxhall Cavalier in the 1980s and 90s.
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Doones
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(Original post by Arran90)
I have held the view that if a manufacturer of large prestigious saloons starts sticking its badge on compact cars then it incurs the risk of downgrading the brand.
Are you a marketing expert?

Has the strategy adversely affected these marques?

What size was the original BMW 3/20?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3/20


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Arran90
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(Original post by Doonesbury)

What size was the original BMW 3/20?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3/20
The E21 was a two-door sports saloon. By the standards of the time it was a medium sized car. It was a bit of a niche car competing in a similar sector to the Toyota Celica or the Volkswagen Scirocco. In Britain its main competitor was the Triumph Dolomite.

The E12 was the main executive car from BMW, but being a younger company than Mercedes, that only took off as a significant player in the 1960s, it lived in the shadow of Mercedes. BMW has never been as successful or achieved the same degree of prestige with its 7 series compared with Mercedes and possibly Jaguar.

BMW really came into the limelight in the 1980s with its four-door E30 that defined the new compact executive class, in addition to its E28 full size executive car.
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Doones
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(Original post by Arran90)
The E21 was a two-door sports saloon. By the standards of the time it was a medium sized car. It was a bit of a niche car competing in a similar sector to the Toyota Celica or the Volkswagen Scirocco. In Britain its main competitor was the Triumph Dolomite.

The E12 was the main executive car from BMW, but being a younger company than Mercedes, that only took off as a significant player in the 1960s, it lived in the shadow of Mercedes. BMW has never been as successful or achieved the same degree of prestige with its 7 series compared with Mercedes and possibly Jaguar.

BMW really came into the limelight in the 1980s with its four-door E30 that defined the new compact executive class, in addition to its E28 full size executive car.
You didn't click my link did you...
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by NX172)
I think I saw this crap on Facebook the other day. Why would having British 'cooks' be hell ? Some of the best chefs are British. British cuisine, yeah. Chefs? No.
lol its a joke, as Britain is judged as having a terrible cuisine so they presume that extends to their chefs
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Jono*
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#26
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(Original post by Arran90)
I have held the view that if a manufacturer of large prestigious saloons starts sticking its badge on compact cars then it incurs the risk of downgrading the brand. A bit like how Rover stuck its badge on the 200 back in the 1980s, followed by the Metro, had by the 1990s clearly shifted the brand from prestigious to commodity. Conversely, Toyota created the Lexus badge for its large luxury saloons sold in Europe and North America as a marketing gimmick to increase the prestige of what was previously the Toyota Crown.

I even think that BMW aren't as exclusive as they were back in the 1980s with the E28 and E30. After 2000 the owner of an E46 3 series was more likely to be a mundane office worker from Basingstoke than a solicitor, a successful businessman, or a yuppie who were the original drivers of E30s. In other words, the sort of person who would be driving a Vauxhall Cavalier in the 1980s and 90s.
The Merc compact car segment is aimed at young professionals, they are trying to get future buyers of their larger cars at a young age so that they become loyal to the brand so that when they upgrade they will not get a BMW or Audi for example. Although their compact cars are cheaper they are still not cheap in general. I don't feel that it has effected the prestige of their larger cars.
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Doones
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Arran90 yes it looks like these marques have a terrible multi-model marketing strategy...

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Since 1990 they have each doubled their European market share.
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notdyls
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(Original post by Doonesbury)
Arran90 yes it looks like these marques have a terrible multi-model marketing strategy...

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Since 1990 they have each doubled their European market share.
At no point did the original commenter suggest that they manufacturers have bad marketing, only that they feel that the introduction of lower models dilutes the brand, which is true to an extent. I don’t agree with the general message behind the comment, but it’s hard to deny that a lower entry price into the brand ruins the exclusivity aspect a bit. Your graph shows that total sales have increased, no doubt due to the introduction of these new models, but it does not show the sales in the top segment - S Class / 7er / A8. It’s no surprise that introducing models at a lower entry price will increase sales, but I wouldn’t be surprised if sales of the flagship suffered as a result. Buyers who previously bought in that segment may be choosing to buy Bentley or Rolls Royce instead now.

I mentioned earlier that I don’t agree with the comment, and that’s because financially it makes sense to introduce lower models - Porsche, for example, are only able to continue to build the their GT cars because sales of the Cayenne and Macan can fund their development. But that doesn’t neglect the fact that introducing the SUVs took away from the exclusivity of the brand. The same goes for these luxury manufacturers - it makes sense to be making new models, but good sales doesn’t mean you can ignore that the three pointed star on the front of your S Class is now far more common than it once was.
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Doones
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(Original post by notdyls)
At no point did the original commenter suggest that they manufacturers have bad marketing, only that they feel that the introduction of lower models dilutes the brand, which is true to an extent. I don’t agree with the general message behind the comment, but it’s hard to deny that a lower entry price into the brand ruins the exclusivity aspect a bit. Your graph shows that total sales have increased, no doubt due to the introduction of these new models, but it does not show the sales in the top segment - S Class / 7er / A8. It’s no surprise that introducing models at a lower entry price will increase sales, but I wouldn’t be surprised if sales of the flagship suffered as a result. Buyers who previously bought in that segment may be choosing to buy Bentley or Rolls Royce instead now.

I mentioned earlier that I don’t agree with the comment, and that’s because financially it makes sense to introduce lower models - Porsche, for example, are only able to continue to build the their GT cars because sales of the Cayenne and Macan can fund their development. But that doesn’t neglect the fact that introducing the SUVs took away from the exclusivity of the brand. The same goes for these luxury manufacturers - it makes sense to be making new models, but good sales doesn’t mean you can ignore that the three pointed star on the front of your S Class is now far more common than it once was.
Who owns Bentley and Rolls Royce Motors?
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Doones
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And notdyls just for fun I had a look at 7-Series (blue) vs S-Class (red) vs A8 (yellow) vs all Bentley (green) vs all RR (purple)

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Note the volumes for BMW, Mercedes and Audi are less than 2% of their total sales.

Source: http://carsalesbase.com
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notdyls
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(Original post by Doonesbury)
Who owns Bentley and Rolls Royce Motors?
I do know but as far as I know they operate independently to their parent companies, so I don’t consider that to be diluting the brand.
(Original post by Doonesbury)
And notdyls just for fun I had a look at 7-Series (blue) vs S-Class (red) vs A8 (yellow) vs all Bentley (green) vs all RR (purple)

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Note the volumes for BMW, Mercedes and Audi are less than 2% of their total sales.

Source: http://carsalesbase.com
Perhaps Bentley and Rolls were a bit of a stretch. I do think that there are buyers in this market who are leaving these brands though, possibly to Range Rover, who are also lowering their entry point, but the focus of their brand is still on the flagship. When you think of Range Rover, you think of the flagship model, not the Evoque. I don’t think the same could be said of BMW and the 7 series, for example.

It’s interesting to see the sharp fall in 7 series sales in recent years, it does seem to associate with the launch of new FWD models, something that is very much against the ethos of BMW. I’ll also reiterate that yes, the new models sell very well, but it doesn’t mean that it isn’t coming at the expense of brand image to some extent.
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Doones
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(Original post by notdyls)
I do know but as far as I know they operate independently to their parent companies, so I don’t consider that to be diluting the brand.

Perhaps Bentley and Rolls were a bit of a stretch. I do think that there are buyers in this market who are leaving these brands though, possibly to Range Rover, who are also lowering their entry point, but the focus of their brand is still on the flagship. When you think of Range Rover, you think of the flagship model, not the Evoque. I don’t think the same could be said of BMW and the 7 series, for example.

It’s interesting to see the sharp fall in 7 series sales in recent years, it does seem to associate with the launch of new FWD models, something that is very much against the ethos of BMW. I’ll also reiterate that yes, the new models sell very well, but it doesn’t mean that it isn’t coming at the expense of brand image to some extent.
2014 was when BMW introduced the FWD 2-Series, 7-Series sales have improved since then...

JLR is pretty tiny compared to BMW, and Range Rover sales are similar to the 7-Series.

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Last edited by Doones; 2 weeks ago
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notdyls
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#33
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(Original post by Doonesbury)
2014 was when BMW introduced the FWD 2-Series, 7-Series sales have improved since then...

JLR is pretty tiny compared to BMW, and Range Rover sales are similar to the 7-Series.

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Colour me surprised. Maybe buyers don’t care about brand image as much as I thought.
One thing to note though, when a comparatively tiny manufacturer is selling a similar number of units to its rival from a far bigger manufacturer, that does show how good their image must be to be able to do that.
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silent ninja
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#34
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(Original post by notdyls)
At no point did the original commenter suggest that they manufacturers have bad marketing, only that they feel that the introduction of lower models dilutes the brand, which is true to an extent. I don’t agree with the general message behind the comment, but it’s hard to deny that a lower entry price into the brand ruins the exclusivity aspect a bit. Your graph shows that total sales have increased, no doubt due to the introduction of these new models, but it does not show the sales in the top segment - S Class / 7er / A8. It’s no surprise that introducing models at a lower entry price will increase sales, but I wouldn’t be surprised if sales of the flagship suffered as a result. Buyers who previously bought in that segment may be choosing to buy Bentley or Rolls Royce instead now.

I mentioned earlier that I don’t agree with the comment, and that’s because financially it makes sense to introduce lower models - Porsche, for example, are only able to continue to build the their GT cars because sales of the Cayenne and Macan can fund their development. But that doesn’t neglect the fact that introducing the SUVs took away from the exclusivity of the brand. The same goes for these luxury manufacturers - it makes sense to be making new models, but good sales doesn’t mean you can ignore that the three pointed star on the front of your S Class is now far more common than it once was.
You seem to be suggesting these brands are measured by the number of sales of their "flagship" cars. Firstly, the 7 series never was BMWs flagship. Secondly big saloons are tiny sellers. Even the S class is outsold by Tesla in the US and all of these saloons are dwarfed by SUV sales. Living in a world where German marques are measured by saloon sales is irrelevant - that world existed 20 years ago.

Finally, we seem to have gone off on a tangent. The OP asked why German cars are popular, not which one had the perceived marketing edge. Popularity = mass sales.

Mercedes, Audi and BMW never positioned themselves as luxury brands. When we think luxury we think Rolls Royce, a yacht, designer suits, jewelry. Often Veblen goods. These cars are NOT that. They aim at the premium market not luxury. I've worked in the automotive industry and marketing often made this obvious distinction. The economics are totally different so let's not mix the two.
Last edited by silent ninja; 2 weeks ago
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
German = quality

Heaven is where the Police are British, the Cooks are Italian, the Mechanics are German, the Lovers are French, and everything is run by the Swiss.

Hell is where the Police are German, the Cooks are British, the Mechanics are French, the Lovers are Swiss, and everything is run by the Italians.
That was true around the time when Fiat 132 had 40HP advantage over VW Passat B1 (which is why Passat was more reliable, less power to capacity=less stress on engine parts) and people laughed at Stig Blomquist when said he's going to race for Audi in the World Rally Championship, because Quattro was new and unknown, and Audi was so far known for making slow family cars.

Not to mention cars don't have nationality now. You have international engineering teams, 'German' manufacturers produce their cars in places such as Spain, Czech Republic and Poland, and some components are even imported from China.

And btw. this is both funny and historically true:
https://youtu.be/-yn16qpTraQ
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
That was true around the time when Fiat 132 had 40HP advantage over VW Passat B1 (which is why Passat was more reliable, less power to capacity=less stress on engine parts) and people laughed at Stig Blomquist when said he's going to race for Audi in the World Rally Championship, because Quattro was new and unknown, and Audi was so far known for making slow family cars.

Not to mention cars don't have nationality now. You have international engineering teams, 'German' manufacturers produce their cars in places such as Spain, Czech Republic and Poland, and some components are even imported from China.

And btw. this is both funny and historically true:
https://youtu.be/-yn16qpTraQ
rofl that guy is now a living meme
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by silent ninja)
They do generally offer good engines, gearboxes , suspension and steering e.g. bmw are darn good for a mass produced car in all these areas. But enough to command a premium over say a Mazda that does more or less the same?
This a marketing myth as well.

Yes, in the 90ies German engines were still durable and reliable, but consider that VW 1.4 gasoline engine produced only 65HP, while Rover K16 1.4 produced up to 103HP, and it was a lightweight all-aluminium engine. French were perhaps a bit worse, but they also had some legendary durability and reliability engines back then, while Italians who used to have power advantage, killed themselves with bad management and reliability issues connected to that former power-advantage, and strikes at their factories.
Germans managed to conserve the myth of reliability whilst the oppostion either ceased to exist, or fell back from former positions for various reasons.

But take a look at the current situation.
2.0 TDI is not as good as the old 1.9 TDI, 1.4 TSI and TFSI is a disastrous design that has problems with practically everything. Numerous BMW engines have different issues, Mini's 1.6 liter engine is BMW-modified Peugeot engine and it's not reliable either. Perhaps one of the reasons the Germans have such a good opinion is that Germans used to be more reliable in times when you could read about chrome-molybdenum crakshafts in car adverts, while now adverts concentrate mainly on lifestyle, projected image of potential owner, and claiming that you no longer have to think while driving because the car has so many safety systems it's actually more intelligent that it's driver.
Last edited by PTMalewski; 2 weeks ago
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Emma:-)
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(Original post by Aaron702)
Because they're premium brands. Even their entry level cars are very expensive. You get what you pay for.
I agree
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Doones
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
and TFSI is a disastrous design that has problems with practically everything.
What's wrong with the TFSI engine? My 12yo A4 2.0 TFSI is going v strong (er, touch wood...).



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PTMalewski
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(Original post by Doonesbury)
What's wrong with the TFSI engine? My 12yo A4 2.0 TFSI is going v strong (er, touch wood...).



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It's timing chain tensioner is not hand-adjusted, but operated by oil pressure. As a result, it doesn't work properly when engine is not heated up, which shortens the lifespan of said chain if engine is mainly used on short distances.
The piston rings were faulty, wearing out quckly causing oil conspution after passing 120k kilometers of mileage, which is would be considered a terribly low lifespan in the 80ies, not to mention there were several reported issues of new cars consuming up to 0,5 sometimes even 1 litre of engine oil per 1000km, which, with an older gen engine would be considered as a sign that the engine has underwent large mileage and requires urgent capital repair. Also the use of direct injection system together with exhaust fuses recirculation system resulted in the intake system being covered in soot, which after certain mileage causes diameter reduction in the intake system, as a result lower power output, unless the intake channels are cleaned every certain mileage.
For these reasons many cars required expensive repairs after mileages much lower than those when they normally should be necessary or repairs that in other engines never have to be done.
Eventually, they improved them (to an extent), but TSI and TFSI are regarded as one of the worst engines in cars currently used en masse on the streets.

https://www.shopdap.com/blog/post/au...-problems.html

Not to mention it's not good to have a turbocharger and supercharger in a car that is not supposed to win extra seconds on a racing track. It gives you extra power but also extra chances of failure and extra costs when repairing.
Last edited by PTMalewski; 2 weeks ago
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