First past the post vs proportional representation Watch

Burton Bridge
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#21
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#21
(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
How? The parties decide, not the voter. Could you clarify what you mean?
Exactly the voter does have a direct representative to hold responsible. not have the ability to hold the politicians liable for their actions. FPTP is not perfect but its the lesser of two evils
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SHallowvale
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I'm not saying that at all, fptp is not ideal but it's the the system we have, you are assuming I'm saying that fptp is brilliant and I love it. You asked me why and highlighted the pitfalls of AV systems and the problems they create in country's that use them.

The Liberals got an unfair hammer from the electorate regarding what they did in 2010-15 the the tories got off Scott free as I said not what the public voted for.

There is no point in scraping one flawed system for another flawed system, the public wanted FPTP they have FPTP, that's called democracy.
You wrote a supposed flaw of PR which could also be applied to FPTP, which is why I mentioned it.

The public voted for FPTP over AV, which isn't a proportional voting method. Not to mention the turnout was 42%,
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Burton Bridge
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#23
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#23
(Original post by SHallowvale)
You wrote a supposed flaw of PR which could also be applied to FPTP, which is why I mentioned it.

The public voted for FPTP over AV, which isn't a proportional voting method. Not to mention the turnout was 42%,
Oh here we go again, this is exactly why referendums don't work. Nobody can accept loosing a referendum.

The public had the chance the vote, the people that voted rejected alternative voting the majority rejected it.

Unfortunately there is no perfect system but as a whole FPTP is more appealing and delivers more stable governments as a general rule where it is used
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SHallowvale
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#24
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#24
(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
SHallowvale

>The last coalition Government we had took 5 days to form since the date of the election.

We're in a FPTP system. We don't have a lot of parties. It was easy for the Tories to form a coalition with the LDs, because that was the obvious choice, and the LDs were desperate to make an impact in this country. In a PR system, parties hold equal leverage, and each has influence, so there is no desperation to clinch power. Basically, your example is flawed. Most elections in PR countries take lots and lots of time to materialize a government - using a country that functions within a FPTP system is not justified.

>Our current government (albeit not exactly a coalition) took 3 days.

Again, we're in a FPTP system. If you want to disprove my point, use examples from countries which actually have PR.

>The Cameron-Clegg coalition was certainly functional.

FPTP. It was functional because FPTP is designed to give a 'winners bonus' - PR doesn't.

>The current Finnish and New Zealand governments took approximately a month to form and government shutdowns don't necessarily have to happen.

Right, finally some examples we can discuss. I would argue a month is a long time, most people in this country, I would imagine, want a functional government, and would not be able to tolerate the government not being in place for over a month. It would be quite a shock for the British public, who have "enjoyed" decades of instant governments, to suddenly be in a place where one cannot form for months.

>Honestly I wouldn't care if it takes even 4 months for a government to form after an election. It's not ideal, should it happen, but I'd pay that for having a voting system where people are actually represented and not totally ignored.

Then advocate for AMS, not PR. Best of both worlds.

>If someone specifically did not want certain parties to form a coalition then their vote will reflect this.

How? The parties decide, not the voter. Could you clarify what you mean?
When I asked why coalition governments are a bad thing you mentioned because people want a functional government. Hence why I brought up the liberal democrats, which are still a valid example of a functional coalition government. You hadn't specified that you were only talking about coalitions from PR systems only.

If a month or more is too much for the electorate then fine. I'd be happy to put a change of voting system to referendum and have people decide. The last one was a total farce and barely anyone voted. Historically in New Zealand some coalitions have taken just over a week to form. Other examples exist too, such as Ireland and Norway. Coalitions aren't necessarily the only option for government either. Confidence and supply is an alternative sometimes.

AMS is one type of PR system, overhang and STV are two other examples.

If a coalition is inevitable then it's likely parties will have to discuss this during the election campaign. Suppose a voter wanted to vote for party X but on the condition they'd form a coalition with party Y. Suppose party X declares they'll form a coalition with party Z, which the voter dislikes. Then said voter may be inclined, if they feel strongly enough about it, to not vote for party X.
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SHallowvale
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Oh here we go again, this is exactly why referendums don't work. Nobody can accept loosing a referendum.

The public had the chance the vote, the people that voted rejected alternative voting the majority rejected it.

Unfortunately there is no perfect system but as a whole FPTP is more appealing and delivers more stable governments as a general rule where it is used
AV isn't a proportional voting method though, so no the public haven't had a chance to vote on this. Also with a turnout of 42% it's not like the public actually got properly involved in it anyway.

FPTP leads to millions of voters having absolutely no voice (and in some cases the majority even loses). This is not democratic by any stretch of the imagination. If we are to have democracy at all then we should move away from FPTP.
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Burton Bridge
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#26
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#26
(Original post by SHallowvale)
AV isn't a proportional voting method though, so no the public haven't had a chance to vote on this. Also with a turnout of 42% it's not like the public actually got properly involved in it anyway.

FPTP leads to millions of voters having absolutely no voice (and in some cases the majority even loses). This is not democratic by any stretch of the imagination. If we are to have democracy at all then we should move away from FPTP.
We are just going to have to agree to differ on this mate because we simply are not going to agree.

If we have one more referendum in this country it will be one too many
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SHallowvale
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
We are just going to have to agree to differ on this mate because we simply are not going to agree.

If we have one more referendum in this country it will be one too many
One more referendum and we'll literally explode.
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cuber314159
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
And when they don't like Lilian Greenwood isn't in my case and Anna Soubry isn't then we can directly target them, via alternate voting system the electorate does not have that power.
you can vote them out at the next election (and I would hope they are voted out at the next election)
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Burton Bridge
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#29
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#29
(Original post by SHallowvale)
One more referendum and we'll literally explode.
Exactly why we shouldn't have one.
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Burton Bridge
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#30
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#30
(Original post by cuber314159)
you can vote them out at the next election (and I would hope they are voted out at the next election)
Well i won't be able to vote Labour next election, because of this. MP's are there to reputsenative of their constituency and its high time they realised this.
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