Being Muslim and gay
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I don't understand why an argument started
OP asked for advice from a Muslim, why are non-Muslims arguing
OP asked for advice from a Muslim, why are non-Muslims arguing
Original post by Johndoeskitty
Actually you are incorrect lol. Islam does indeed teach acceptance such as this, it's not whitewashing whatsoever. My entire family is Muslim and I have a couple of scholar relatives who dedicated their life to studying Islam as well. They all say homosexuality should be accepted. What a lot of 'Muslims' believe is an incorrect interpretation of the Qu'ran which the Saudis and certain other countries had adapted to suit themselves. There are a lot of incorrect versions of the Qu'ran out there. If any so called Muslim believes that it should not be accepted they are simply following extremist rules set by certain countries as a 'precedent' for Islam when the reality is it is all bullsh*t. I'm not white and agree completely with what the poster you quoted previously has said, because they understand the fundamental concept of Islam.
Hi thanks for your answer. I really appreciate it. Could you please explain it a bit more. Your stance gives me hope. What do your scholar relatives say? What is acceptable and what not? I will be very grateful if you could provide some insight.
Original post by Lvaz
Dear Gee, I’m grateful for taking out time and writing you have been very kind and gracious and I do think I’m transgender, but dont show the obvious effeminate signs due to suppressing those for so long. I admire your willingness to explain things and some things even though you know, it feels good when someone reassured you.
Hi again!
Just a note - figuring out your gender identity and coming to terms with being transgender can be a bit of a bumpy road. So if you need to talk/rant to anyone about that side of things, I know a bit about the process of transitioning and similar things (as I am of trans experience myself), feel free to message me.
Good luck for the future!
- Gee
Original post by Anonymous
i'll tell you honestly - it IS a test.
i'll tell you honestly - it IS a test.
Original post by Anonymous
he is all forgiving and the most merciful.
What a great guy your God is, for forgiving people for doing things he himself apparently tempts them in to doing.
Original post by awkwardshortguy
What a great guy your God is, for forgiving people for doing things he himself apparently tempts them in to doing.
Not only tempts them to do, but programs them to do.
Original post by Anonymous
I am a practicing Muslim and I love my faith and tend to be good and do good as much as I can. I have been dealing with tough family problems for quite long along with another factor. I am gay and closeted. People say that it’s ones own choice. But how can it be if I felt like a girl since I was 2 or had my first crush when I was 4. Didn’t know what was happening until later. I have tried to abstain from everything but can’t anymore. I still force myself but am unable to. There is no one I can discuss this with. I am on mental health medication as well. People say it’s a test as I’ve read on discussions and one must try to curb desires. But those who are not going through it don’t know. Sometimes it’s as little as having someone to embrace. I would much appreciate a Muslim opinion as it means a lot to me.
Thanks
Thanks
Hey, read this https://www.edudivers.nl/faq/quran_about_homosexuality
Religious texts are always up for interpretation. The story of Lut doesn’t necessarily condemn homosexuality. Sometimes old moral principles could distort our interpretations of text. I know I’m being a bit extreme saying maybe the story’s interpretation does not condemn it per se, but the essay I sent you sheds light on a new perspective you might find comfort in and you never know might even be correct.
I think the religion forbids a lot of things. Amongst those things are murder and theft and whatnot. If you are a person with a good heart and follow your religion 99% and this 1% where you don’t (although not necessarily, as you will find out when you read the link) I don’t see why your God might choose to burn you in hell especially since he’s “merciful” and “forgiving”.
Best of luck
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by punkdilla
this is why Islam is damaging
Other religions forbid homosexuality as well? It’s not only a problem in Islam.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by LegallyJasmine
Other religions forbid homosexuality as well? It’s not only a problem in Islam.
we're talking about Islam right now.
Original post by EyestriX
Why should those gay people not be given a chance to repent/change?
If you're alive you can change - if you couldn't you'd be dead
If you're alive you can change - if you couldn't you'd be dead
What do you mean? Could you re-word/expand?
But saying "this is why Islam is damaging" well knowing that other Abrahamic faiths that are also widely practiced condemn it implies that this is a problem that only relates to one religion or that it is an anomaly.
Original post by punkdilla
we're talking about Islam right now.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by LegallyJasmine
But saying "this is why Islam is damaging" well knowing that other Abrahamic faiths that are also widely practiced condemn it implies that this is a problem that only relates to one religion or rather that it is an anomaly.
no it doesn't. You're making that assumption in your head. While this is understandable because Islam is often victimised it's not what I was suggesting. The op is Muslim. I'm born and exist in a Muslim community. We're talking about Islam. And mainstream Islam is bad for mental health.
listen, you have already seen that you cannot argue with the part do yourself that’s gay. for you, you cannot be straight. trying to, as has been suggested, is unhealthy and you’ve been able to experience that yourself. what you have to consider is whether external factors should let you feel so bad about something you can’t change.
look at your religion. you feel like it’s worth following, right? why do you feel like it’s worth following? if you are going to put yourself through this kind of torture it has to be for good reason. denying sexuality is extremely detrimental to your mental health. so you have to check for yourself whether it’s worth it. you have to look at islam yourself and see whether it is true and worth it. I used to be muslim, i had a very very similar situation to you, and i know how this feels. in the end, i tried to look for proof of said religion and found none. maybe you’ll feel different. obviously i don’t know what conclusion you will come to but i do not think you are denying yourself love and happiness for a greater cause like you think you are. look into Islam. is it worth this torture? is it even real? in the end, it’s your life and you literally only live once. imagine living that entire life scared of something and denying yourself when you didn’t have to.
message me if you want, i’ll be happy to help
look at your religion. you feel like it’s worth following, right? why do you feel like it’s worth following? if you are going to put yourself through this kind of torture it has to be for good reason. denying sexuality is extremely detrimental to your mental health. so you have to check for yourself whether it’s worth it. you have to look at islam yourself and see whether it is true and worth it. I used to be muslim, i had a very very similar situation to you, and i know how this feels. in the end, i tried to look for proof of said religion and found none. maybe you’ll feel different. obviously i don’t know what conclusion you will come to but i do not think you are denying yourself love and happiness for a greater cause like you think you are. look into Islam. is it worth this torture? is it even real? in the end, it’s your life and you literally only live once. imagine living that entire life scared of something and denying yourself when you didn’t have to.
message me if you want, i’ll be happy to help
The academic literature on queer Muslims and alternative methodologies and interpretations of the Quran might help you navigate your feelings as well. I just came across this: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/258187116_Some_queer_questions_from_a_Muslim_faith_perspective/amp
The person who wrote this also the cofounder of an inclusive mosque. Even if you can’t come to the masjid, I’m sure if you got in touch, they’d be able to help you somehow.
I hope you’re doing okay!
I just came across this: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/258187116_Some_queer_questions_from_a_Muslim_faith_perspective/ampThe person who wrote this also the cofounder of an inclusive mosque. Even if you can’t come to the masjid, I’m sure if you got in touch, they’d be able to help you somehow.
I hope you’re doing okay!
Original post by googin1
The academic literature on queer Muslims and alternative methodologies and interpretations of the Quran might help you navigate your feelings as well. I just came across this: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/258187116_Some_queer_questions_from_a_Muslim_faith_perspective/amp
The person who wrote this also the cofounder of an inclusive mosque. Even if you can’t come to the masjid, I’m sure if you got in touch, they’d be able to help you somehow.
I hope you’re doing okay!
I just came across this: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/258187116_Some_queer_questions_from_a_Muslim_faith_perspective/ampThe person who wrote this also the cofounder of an inclusive mosque. Even if you can’t come to the masjid, I’m sure if you got in touch, they’d be able to help you somehow.
I hope you’re doing okay!
A person trying to follow a religion sincerely does not reinterpret a religion to accomodate one's own inclinations - that is self delusion, acamedically unsound (since it presumes the founders and first people to practiced the religion from whom we gained our current knowledge were mistaken) and God does not judge people according to a person's own reinvented standards
Original post by Johndoeskitty
Actually you are incorrect lol. Islam does indeed teach acceptance such as this, it's not whitewashing whatsoever. My entire family is Muslim and I have a couple of scholar relatives who dedicated their life to studying Islam as well. They all say homosexuality should be accepted. What a lot of 'Muslims' believe is an incorrect interpretation of the Qu'ran which the Saudis and certain other countries had adapted to suit themselves. There are a lot of incorrect versions of the Qu'ran out there. If any so called Muslim believes that it should not be accepted they are simply following extremist rules set by certain countries as a 'precedent' for Islam when the reality is it is all bullsh*t. I'm not white and agree completely with what the poster you quoted previously has said, because they understand the fundamental concept of Islam.
1. Accepted in what way? Hating the sin and not the sinner is a form of acceptance; denying acting on homosexual feelings is a sin is not a fprm of acceptance - it is a complete reinterpretation.
2. What is their methodology for deriving rulings?
3. What incorrect versions - are you referring to different Riwayat and Ahruf?
4. What extremist rules are you referring to? Some things I too disagree with with respect to certain countries' laws or societal attitudes, butI am just wondering if you too consider classical Islamic rulings to be extreme too?
I would like to understand how you understand Islam and this topic
It isn't reinterpreting per se, it's providing a different interpretation along with the myriad existing ones out there. By saying "reinterpreting" it is almost as if you're claiming that there is only one true interpretation when in actuality each singular verse has more than 10 different Islamic scholars providing a different interpretation of its letter and spirit. Funny how this would not be the case if we were talking about scientific evidence that directly contradicts religious texts. Just because this does not fit what the consensus of moral standards that people believe the text intended to communicate, does not mean there is no possibility that it is what a God might have intended to say.
Anyways, the Quran forbids its followers from eating pork and consuming alcohol due to the supposed negative effects it has on our bodies. This would be paradoxical with the idea of suppressing one's sexual orientation as studies have shown is detrimental to one's mental health and often leads to suicide. The author, or let's say God of the Quran claimed that the Quran is a perfect text so it cannot be written by humans and that there are no inconsistencies. This is an inconsistency here since there is immense harm through suppressing something like this, and so if you believe this deity exists, you should be open to different interpretations to decipher what the true meaning of the verses actually are. Scholars have done it so that the Quran does not contradict science, do not see why people should be more close-minded when it comes to taboos like this. There is nothing wrong with OP checking out the interpretations and not necessarily blindly following them, but seeing whether the claims and arguments in favour of them are believable and convincing.
Anyways, the Quran forbids its followers from eating pork and consuming alcohol due to the supposed negative effects it has on our bodies. This would be paradoxical with the idea of suppressing one's sexual orientation as studies have shown is detrimental to one's mental health and often leads to suicide. The author, or let's say God of the Quran claimed that the Quran is a perfect text so it cannot be written by humans and that there are no inconsistencies. This is an inconsistency here since there is immense harm through suppressing something like this, and so if you believe this deity exists, you should be open to different interpretations to decipher what the true meaning of the verses actually are. Scholars have done it so that the Quran does not contradict science, do not see why people should be more close-minded when it comes to taboos like this. There is nothing wrong with OP checking out the interpretations and not necessarily blindly following them, but seeing whether the claims and arguments in favour of them are believable and convincing.
Original post by Zamestaneh
A person trying to follow a religion sincerely does not reinterpret a religion to accomodate one's own inclinations - that is self delusion, acamedically unsound (since it presumes the founders and first people to practiced the religion from whom we gained our current knowledge were mistaken) and God does not judge people according to a person's own reinvented standards
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Lvaz
X
Though some people are well meaning in this thread, I feel they are leading you astray by feeding on your predisposition to optimism. Those trying to convince you that you can reinterpret the Qur'an and Sunnah to mean having homosexual relationships is okay are completely wrong - God does not judge us according to how we feel and what we want, rather He judges us according to His criteria.
To clarify the correct Islamic interpretation (with 1400 years of consecutive consensus):
- Having homosexual feelings is something you cannot control; you can only control your actions - just as a heterosexual has desires too whether they like it or not, they can either choose to act on those feelings and commit Zinah or they can choose to have patience.
- Acting on homosexual feelings is most definitely a sin. Two people of the same sex cannot expose their nakedness to each other, they cannot share a bed with their private parts uncovered, they cannot commit sodomy or otherwise touch each other with lust, they cannot marry etc - these are all sinful actions.
- The only difference is thus that the only Halal outlet for lust or romance is marriage (between a man and a woman).
I do have some questions for you to help me tailor my advice but this all will offend pro-LGBT people in the thread (and perhaps report my post) but if you want genuine meaningful advice, you can PM me.
Original post by LegallyJasmine
It isn't reinterpreting; it's providing a different interpretation along with the myriad existing ones out there. By saying "reinterpreting" it is almost as if you're claiming that there is only one true interpretation when in actuality each singular verse has more than 10 different Islamic scholars providing a different interpretation of its letter and spirit. Funny how this would not be the case if we were talking about scientific evidence that directly contradicts religious texts. Just because this does not fit what the consensus of moral standards that people believe the text intended to communicate, does not mean there is no possibility that it is what a God might have intended to say. Anyways, the Quran forbids its followers from eating pork and consuming alcohol due to the supposed negative effects it has on our bodies. This would be paradoxical with the idea of suppressing one's true desires as studies have shown is detrimental to one's mental health and often leads to suicide.
The author, or let's say God of the Quran claimed that the Quran is a perfect text so it cannot be written by humans and that there are no inconsistencies. This is an inconsistency here since there is harm through suppression, and so if you believe this deity exists, you should be open to different interpretations to decipher what the true meaning of the verses actually are. Scholars have done it so that the Quran does not contradict science, do not see why people should be more close-minded when it comes to taboos like this. There is nothing wrong with OP checking out the interpretations and not necessarily blindly following them, but seeing whether the claims and arguments in favour of them are believable and convincing.
The author, or let's say God of the Quran claimed that the Quran is a perfect text so it cannot be written by humans and that there are no inconsistencies. This is an inconsistency here since there is harm through suppression, and so if you believe this deity exists, you should be open to different interpretations to decipher what the true meaning of the verses actually are. Scholars have done it so that the Quran does not contradict science, do not see why people should be more close-minded when it comes to taboos like this. There is nothing wrong with OP checking out the interpretations and not necessarily blindly following them, but seeing whether the claims and arguments in favour of them are believable and convincing.
1. There is a scope within which there is valid interpretation and differences of opinion; anything outside that is (false) reinterpretation. To give an example, a clear verse in the Quran is "Qul Hu Allahu Ahad" - Say He is Allah the One - there is only one way to interpret this and it is clear and unambiguous, and there is no way to claim that there is two, or three or four gods or a trinitarian God since Ahad is an indivisible one (as opposed to Wahid which is a numeric one). To say Allah is 3 in 1 or whatever would be a reinterpretation outside of the scope of valid interpretation.
Generally speaking, the understanding most favoured is that of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH who witnessed the events surrounding revelations, received religious guidance from the Prophet PBUH etc, and then the opinions of the generation the companions taught and the generation after them - these are the 3 best generations according to the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, and logically speaking they are the closest to the source and therefore have more complete knowledge. Nevertheless, the interpretation regarding acting on homosexual feelings being a sin has held consensus across not just these 3 generations, but every generation from the time of the Prophet PBUH up until now, and just like Allah being a unique and indivisible one, there is no scope for an alternate valid interpretation. The only thing which is subject to interpretation is the legal punishment for various acts e.g. sodomy.
It is thus impossible to look at this another way.
2. The Qur'an forbids alcohol and pork because God wants to forbid alcohol and pork first and foremost. The Muqasid Ash Shariah (the purposes of shariah) regarding why God might forbid something is either explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an or it is something deduced (which is subject to interpretation). Regarding pork, God has not elaborated on why it is impure or otherwise forbidden, so we do not know if it would harm us physically (since impurity can either be physical and/or just spiritual but it is ambiguous in this case), so using this to make your point is neither here nor there.
Regarding alcohol, the Qur'an says that it has benefit and harms but the harms outweigh the benefits. This fundamentally undermines the point you were trying to make because one could argue that acting upon homosexual feelings has more harms than positives so God chose to forbid various acts.
3. Given what I said in (1), and having read the arguments used by pro-LGBT people to justify homosexual acts within Islam, I have already ascertained that their argument is weak. The reason I am keen to point this out rather than stay silent and let the OP come to his own conclusion is because people have a predisposed bias to facilitate what they want, and also I do not know his level of religious knowledge so he might be led astray by those with less/no knowledge or those who otherwise do not care about Islamic orthodoxy because they dislike Islam in general (and there are a number of bitter non-Muslim users who do this on purpose on TSR with the specific intention of trying to distance people from Islam).
(edited 5 years ago)
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