Brexit, a dead end? Watch

QE2
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#41
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At the moment the most likely resolution seems to be a No Deal Brexit, determined by the EU rejecting the extension that parliament votes in favour of on Thursday.
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paul514
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#42
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(Original post by QE2)
Whatever happened to the Sovereignty of Parliament™? Was that just another Leave campaign lie? Is the only thing left in their portfolio really just a bit of xenophobia and some hedge-fund speculation?
The only authority higher than parliament is the people, if you sub contract a decision out to the people you need to honour it.

The people have voted for parliament to take back all these powers to be given to them instead of the EU.

The reality of the situation is May & Robins have tried to do a deal that the ERG can’t get behind and did the talks in the wrong order.

I see two ways out of this whilst honouring democracy.

1. Leaving with no deal with May in power.

2. A new Tory leader to go back and do a no deal brexit.

If we stand for MEP elections then you haven’t honoured the vote, if you remain you haven’t honoured the vote, if you are still in the single market, have to take laws from the ECJ or in the customs union you haven’t honoured the vote.

I’ve nothing more to say and I’m surprised others do most people are burned out on the issue.
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nulli tertius
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#43
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(Original post by paul514)
The only authority higher than parliament is the people, if you sub contract a decision out to the people you need to honour it.
.
Not in terms of a headcount, not in our political system. Attlee won the popular vote in 1951, Heath in February 1974.
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Burton Bridge
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#44
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(Original post by paul514)
I’ve nothing more to say and I’m surprised others do most people are burned out on the issue.
I certainly am!

I fear the coming days are going to cause serious damage to our country. Its not no deal I fear, it's the backlash from the people if the politicians ignore the 2016 referendum.
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TensorTympani
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#45
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May's deal got rejected exactly what I thought would happen, now they are going to extend Brexit or force us to leave without a deal.
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Burton Bridge
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#46
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Not in terms of a headcount, not in our political system. Attlee won the popular vote in 1951, Heath in February 1974.
You're going to have to explain that to me, sorry
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nulli tertius
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#47
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
You're going to have to explain that to me, sorry
References to "the People" as a source of sovereign authority can be a rhetorical or abstract construction. In the UK there are problems about it even being a rhetorical or abstract device and sovereignty may rest with the Crown or Crown in Parliament. However, even accepting that sovereignty rests with the People in the UK in a rhetorical or abstract sense (which is undoubtedly true in the USA for example) doesn't mean that it rests with an actual physical count of the views of those people. If it did, then the Governments of Churchill in 1951 and Wilson in February 1974 (and the administration of Trump in the USA today) would be democratically illegitimate because under the indirect processes that exist for choosing leaders, Churchill, Wilson and Trump all achieved fewer votes than their rivals.
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Burton Bridge
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#48
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
References to "the People" as a source of sovereign authority can be a rhetorical or abstract construction. In the UK there are problems about it even being a rhetorical or abstract device and sovereignty may rest with the Crown or Crown in Parliament. However, even accepting that sovereignty rests with the People in the UK in a rhetorical or abstract sense (which is undoubtedly true in the USA for example) doesn't mean that it rests with an actual physical count of the views of those people. If it did, then the Governments of Churchill in 1951 and Wilson in February 1974 (and the administration of Trump in the USA today) would be democratically illegitimate because under the indirect processes that exist for choosing leaders, Churchill, Wilson and Trump all achieved fewer votes than their rivals.
Thank you.

I'm still a little bemused as to how that reflects on @paul514 point mind you? I understand what you are saying but a referendum is not based on those rules, the bench mark is 50%.

Leave won 51.9%. Therefore leave won, now the problem (at the risk of sounding like a stuck record) is referendums don't work, no extreme side can accept losing one because they are one off votes not to be repeated. So they try to twist to get something back from the ashes of their defeat.

No brexit is not an option but all I'm hearing is no deal is not an option, which it is and needs to be or the whole thing is impossible and we may of well of remained and never had the 2026 vote. But..... We did so parliament are going to have to compromise somewhere that is not coming from either hard core camp. The problem is most MP are hard core remainers and then the ERG, well we have the problem that we are in.

They are supposed to be educated and honourable people serving their constituents, it's time they swallowed their pride and started doing just that!
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 week ago
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nulli tertius
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#49
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Thank you.

I'm still a little bemused as to how that reflects on @paul514 point mind you? I understand what you are saying but a referendum is not based on those rules, the bench mark is 50%.

Leave won 51.9%. Therefore leave won, now the problem (at the risk of sounding like a stuck record) is referendums don't work, no extreme side can accept losing one because they are one off votes not to be repeated. So they try to twist to get something back from the ashes of their defeat.

No brexit is not an option but all I'm hearing is no deal is not an option, which it is and needs to be or the whole thing is impossible and we may of well of remained and never had the 2026 vote. But..... We did so parliament are going to have to compromise somewhere that is not coming from either hard core camp. The problem is most MP are hard core remainers and then the ERG, well we have the problem that we are in.

They are supposed to be educated and honourable people serving their constituents, it's time they swallowed their pride and started doing just that!
My point is that an appeal to the sovereignty of the People doesn’t extract you from the predicament. It isn’t about winners and losers of individual popular votes.

As I have posted on another thread, I think there has to be another referendum. We cannot move the extremists. We have to move the middle ground. That means we must either change the minds of those who wish to respect the previous referendum by a new Remain vote or enlarge that group by persuading Remain inclined MPs to defer to a doubly endorsed Brexit.

A major problem is that most Brexiteers believe in their heart of hearts that they got lucky in 2016 and couldn’t win another vote. Scots Unionists think they would win Indyref2, Brexiteers don’t think they would win again.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#50
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#50
No Brexit looking more likely -
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Burton Bridge
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#51
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
My point is that an appeal to the sovereignty of the People doesn’t extract you from the predicament. It isn’t about winners and losers of individual popular votes.

As I have posted on another thread, I think there has to be another referendum. We cannot move the extremists. We have to move the middle ground. That means we must either change the minds of those who wish to respect the previous referendum by a new Remain vote or enlarge that group by persuading Remain inclined MPs to defer to a doubly endorsed Brexit.

A major problem is that most Brexiteers believe in their heart of hearts that they got lucky in 2016 and couldn’t win another vote. Scots Unionists think they would win Indyref2, Brexiteers don’t think they would win again.
What a lovely insight into a psychic who can read the Minds of 52% of the 2016 electorate.

Well in my case you are wrong. I think if there was another in out referendum, it would boost the rar rights support and that's a bad thing in my eyes and damage faith in democracy and that's the reason 8 don't want one. If it were to happen as a carbon copy in/out I believe leave would win by a larger percentage 55% plus.

Where I do agree with you is we need to move towards more middle ground, another referendum is pointless and not worth the risk regarding the damage it could do.

You only want want another referendum to remain can you not see how that will damage democracy? Remain nor do the Scots they just want hope to get what they want and to hell with anyone else.

You are right mind you that we need compromise, at the moment no one is mature enough to do so
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QE2
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#52
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(Original post by paul514)
The only authority higher than parliament is the people, if you sub contract a decision out to the people you need to honour it.

The people have voted for parliament to take back all these powers to be given to them instead of the EU.

The reality of the situation is May & Robins have tried to do a deal that the ERG can’t get behind and did the talks in the wrong order.

I see two ways out of this whilst honouring democracy.

1. Leaving with no deal with May in power.

2. A new Tory leader to go back and do a no deal brexit.

If we stand for MEP elections then you haven’t honoured the vote, if you remain you haven’t honoured the vote, if you are still in the single market, have to take laws from the ECJ or in the customs union you haven’t honoured the vote.

I’ve nothing more to say and I’m surprised others do most people are burned out on the issue.
As with many people, you seem to misunderstand the nature of parliamentary democracy.
Also, no one in the referendum voted for No Deal, or any other kind of Specific Deal, which is why the result is essentially meaningless in practical terms.
However, it has gone way beyond that now and the fate of Brexit probably lies in the hands of the other EU member states. How ironic!
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sachinisgod
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#53
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(Original post by QE2)
As with many people, you seem to misunderstand the nature of parliamentary democracy.
Also, no one in the referendum voted for No Deal, or any other kind of Specific Deal, which is why the result is essentially meaningless in practical terms.
However, it has gone way beyond that now and the fate of Brexit probably lies in the hands of the other EU member states. How ironic!
Well I did... didnt know you had psychic powers to know how or why each of the 17 million people voted to leave.

Someone with two brain cells could have predicted that out of spite the EU will never give us a favourable deal so the only basis of leaving the EU was on our terms and a clean cut. No one voted for a deal disguised as remaining in the EU as a vassal state thats for sure. They had 2 years to plan leaving a no deal option- sorting out which areas and businesses could have zero tariffs and just generally plan ahead BUT when 90% of the parliament AND the PM doesnt believe in Leaving the EU why would they take logical decisions. When you take away a bargaining chip ( no deal) away from the table, the other side (EU) knows it can give you any rubbish deal and the UK will have to accept it ( any still stay in the EU) or cancel Brexit altogether. Can you not see this is been a stich up ever since the day a Remainer was made a PM.
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QE2
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#54
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(Original post by sachinisgod)
Well I did... didnt know you had psychic powers to know how or why each of the 17 million people voted to leave.
No you didn't, because there were no such details on the referendum ballot.
You may have had a particular type of Brexit in mind when you cast your vote, but that is irrelevant.

Someone with two brain cells could have predicted that out of spite the EU will never give us a favourable deal
Oh, boo hoo! The nasty EU negotiating from a position of power, presented a deal that favoured their members rather than the UK. WTF did you expect?

so the only basis of leaving the EU was on our terms and a clean cut.
Not so. There were a range of possibilities presented by Leave campaigners - from Norway to No Deal.

No one voted for a deal disguised as remaining in the EU as a vassal state thats for sure. They had 2 years to plan leaving a no deal option- sorting out which areas and businesses could have zero tariffs and just generally plan ahead BUT when 90% of the parliament AND the PM doesnt believe in Leaving the EU why would they take logical decisions. When you take away a bargaining chip ( no deal) away from the table, the other side (EU) knows it can give you any rubbish deal and the UK will have to accept it ( any still stay in the EU) or cancel Brexit altogether. Can you not see this is been a stich up ever since the day a Remainer was made a PM.
Well, when you offer people something that is impossible to achieve, these things will happen.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by QE2)
As with many people, you seem to misunderstand the nature of parliamentary democracy.
Also, no one in the referendum voted for No Deal, or any other kind of Specific Deal, which is why the result is essentially meaningless in practical terms.
However, it has gone way beyond that now and the fate of Brexit probably lies in the hands of the other EU member states. How ironic!
As with many people, you seem to misunderstand the nature of democracy.

No matter how much you may want to get you're own way in the referendum no majority voted for remain, the majorly voted for a exit deal or no deal far more than they voted for a second referendum or a remain. Which is why the result is essentially being ignored by all sides who are trying to bully in their ideal situation.

Brexit has now been hijacked by inflexible selfish game players from both remain and leave who don't want the best for the country they want the best for themselves. These people are indivertibly putting brexit in the hands of the other EU member states, thinking they are being clever but they are not
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 week ago
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QE2
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
As with many people, you seem to misunderstand the nature of democracy.
Ironic, coming from someone who thinks that a two and a half year old, advisory referendum somehow fixes government policy in perpetuity!

No matter how much you may want to get you're own way in the referendum no majority voted for remain, the majorly voted for a exit deal or no deal far more than they voted for a second referendum or a remain. Which is why the result is essentially being ignored by all sides who are trying to bully in their ideal situation.
I simply want what's best for the country. I could accept a "Norway" Brexit, for example. I'd rather remain but it would be better than No Deal or even the negotiated WA, both of which benefit only a minority.

Would you accept a "Norway" Brexit?
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sachinisgod
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(Original post by QE2)
Ironic, coming from someone who thinks that a two and a half year old, advisory referendum somehow fixes government policy in perpetuity!


I simply want what's best for the country. I could accept a "Norway" Brexit, for example. I'd rather remain but it would be better than No Deal or even the negotiated WA, both of which benefit only a minority.

Would you accept a "Norway" Brexit?
Do you realise the price of Norway being the EEA zone to get free movement of goods is ALSO free movement of PEOPLE and adoption of EU laws which was the exact reason people voted to leave in order to control immigration from everywhere including the EU and also make our own laws without interference from another body.

If some leavers are happy with a Norway model then they need to question what exactly they stand for.
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QE2
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(Original post by sachinisgod)
Do you realise the price of Norway being the EEA zone to get free movement of goods is ALSO free movement of PEOPLE and adoption of EU laws which was the exact reason people voted to leave in order to control immigration from everywhere including the EU and also make our own laws without interference from another body.
So you voted Leave in order to "control immigration from everywhere". How does leaving the EU affect immigration from outside the EU? And what element of EU citizen migration upsets you? (You do realise that economic migrants in the UK from within the EU are more likely to pay tax and less likely to claim benefits than UK citizens, of course).

Also, which of the laws forced on the UK against our will by the EU do you object to most?
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sachinisgod
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(Original post by QE2)
So you voted Leave in order to "control immigration from everywhere". How does leaving the EU affect immigration from outside the EU? And what element of EU citizen migration upsets you? (You do realise that economic migrants in the UK from within the EU are more likely to pay tax and less likely to claim benefits than UK citizens, of course).

Also, which of the laws forced on the UK against our will by the EU do you object to most?
Seems like you werent listening to the debates during the referendum if you ask me this question about immigration.

You are happy for white european countries citizens to get an automatic right to walk in this country without a job or english language skills but people from asia and africa are subject to strict immigration laws and english requirements in order to even get work permits. Leaving the EU would enable us to have an immigration policy which would be standardised and people would have to comply with same requirements whether they have a French passport or Indian passport. You may defend this as preference to an elite club of nations, i would call this low key racism and discrimination.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
What a lovely insight into a psychic who can read the Minds of 52% of the 2016 electorate.

Well in my case you are wrong. I think if there was another in out referendum, it would boost the rar rights support and that's a bad thing in my eyes and damage faith in democracy and that's the reason 8 don't want one. If it were to happen as a carbon copy in/out I believe leave would win by a larger percentage 55% plus.

Where I do agree with you is we need to move towards more middle ground, another referendum is pointless and not worth the risk regarding the damage it could do.

You only want want another referendum to remain can you not see how that will damage democracy? Remain nor do the Scots they just want hope to get what they want and to hell with anyone else.

You are right mind you that we need compromise, at the moment no one is mature enough to do so
I didn't comment on the minds of the electorate at all.

And no, I don't think having another referendum will damage democracy in the slightest.
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