Labour government would force landlords to offer indefinite tenancies Watch

Andrew97
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/...nite-tenancies

What do you think?
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nulli tertius
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We have been here for most of the 20th century.

You can't have security of tenure without some form of rent restriction (otherwise, your new rent is £1m a week but you can stay indefinitely). As soon as you have rent restrictions, the political imperative is to drive rent levels below what the market would charge. As soon as properties are let at lower than market rents, there is no incentive for landlords to maintain the value of the housing stock through repairs because the greatest profit comes from restoring the market value of the property by obtaining vacant possession.

The pretty dismal history of government interference with private lettings is set out here

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format...&query=(spath)

(read the section entitled "The Facts")
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londonmyst
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Marks an official return to the thinking existent during the worst days of the governments of Harold Wilson and James Callaghan.
With some additional militancy era ideas.
Return of rent controls/the rent officer, the right of renters to breach tenancy conditions with impunity, mandatory indefinite length tenancies and trespassing squatter rights as opposed to property owners rights to decide who they choose to live in their property.

These sort of proposals and the attitudes underpinning them are so counterproductive.
They would decimate the uk residental rental market, scare off landlords from accepting tenants who are not close relatives or employees and when extended into other areas of traditional anglo-saxon capitalism would capsize the British economy as a whole.
My parents were the student revolutionaries of militant era and are gleefully counting the days until Corbyn & McDonnell bring " the first true socialist government to Britain".
I'm desperately hoping that for the rest of 2019 the PM doesn't annoy her allies or provide remain supporting backbenchers with any egregious example of cabinet incompetence that can be used as political ammunition to unite and bring down the government.
I didn't experience life under 1970s socialism and have no desire to see a militant re-branded government come to power.
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nulli tertius
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With some additional militancy era ideas.
Moreover, once you regulate, you can't deregulate quickly because that just favours the men with baseball bats as was proved with Peter Rachman from 1957 onwards. It took 16 years from 1980 to 1996 to deregulate the lettings market in a stable manner to create what we have at the moment.
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ThomH97
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It doesn't really address the issue of it being increasingly difficult to own your own home, instead being locked in to paying off random rich people's mortgages on something they just see as a 'property' or 'investment'.

To get this through would use political capital that would be far better spent elsewhere. I do agree with the intention of giving people security in 'their' own home, and I don't think landlords needed the financial help they received in the bailouts, but the superior solution is to actually build homes that can only be bought to be lived in - not buy to let and certainly not buy to leave.
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paul514
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It’s a stupid idea simply because it’s not practical to do so for a multitude of reasons I am sure have been highlighted since the thread has been opened (haven’t read it yet)
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by ThomH97)
It doesn't really address the issue of it being increasingly difficult to own your own home, instead being locked in to paying off random rich people's mortgages on something they just see as a 'property' or 'investment'.

To get this through would use political capital that would be far better spent elsewhere. I do agree with the intention of giving people security in 'their' own home, and I don't think landlords needed the financial help they received in the bailouts, but the superior solution is to actually build homes that can only be bought to be lived in - not buy to let and certainly not buy to leave.
Buy to Leave is a London specific problem that can and should be addressed through the planning system.

The government is in the course of phasing out higher rate tax relief on mortgage costs for buy to let properties. Basic rate tax relief should also be phased out. It distorts the market by making ownership of residential properties cheaper for landlords compared with owner occupiers.
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ThomH97
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(Original post by CoolCavy)
Not every landlord is some rich fat cat. My parent's mum died and she inherited the ex-council house so rents it off as she has no other income due to my abusive father.
You've painted her sympathetically, but do realise you've still just given an example of a landlord not needing to work because she can charge so much rent.
(Original post by nulli tertius)
Buy to Leave is a London specific problem that can and should be addressed through the planning system.

The government is in the course of phasing out higher rate tax relief on mortgage costs for buy to let properties. Basic rate tax relief should also be phased out. It distorts the market by making ownership of residential properties cheaper for landlords compared with owner occupiers.
That would probably help in the short term, but it doesn't discourage those who are rich enough to afford the mortgage themselves (or can buy outright), and potentially raises rents to get the same profit. We would still have a problem of people contributing nothing to society but profiting from deliberately increasing the cost of living, and with that problem still growing in the long term as they seek to build a 'portfolio'.

People need somewhere to live, and while being a producer of this is good for society, being an exploitative gatekeeper is bad. I'd like to see the government do/incentivise the former, and simultaneously preventing the latter from undoing their efforts.
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ThomH97
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(Original post by CoolCavy)
Excuse me ? How judgmental
She has tried to get back into work ever since her mum died but because of the massive employment gap (because she was full time carer for her mum) people are reluctant to hire her.
The money she gets isn't enough to sustain her at all it's a small bonus that is all. She still has to rely on my abusive father's money because shock horror she doesn't charge exorbitant prices.
Maybe think before you say such things.
Perhaps you should not have claimed the rent was her only income in your initial attempt to garner pity.

In the case that you are telling the truth this time, hopefully you realise her situation is in the minority.
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ThomH97
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(Original post by CoolCavy)
She doesn't have any other income. My father's money (the littlel that he gives her since he gaslights her) it not her 'income' it's you who deliberately misinterpreted that and I did not say her situation to 'garner pity's i said it because it's true and I'm fed up of the vilification of landlords by people such as yourself.
I don't care if you think I'm telling the truth or not. I don't have to prove myself to you or expose family details to win you over.
Maybe come back more sensitive of other people's family situations next time and don't make such sweeping comments of things you know nothing about.
It would be good if you could see the harm landlords cause as a whole - perhaps you will if you ever try to own your own home - but for now you seem too emotionally involved in an anecdotal, atypical exception.
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ThomH97
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(Original post by CoolCavy)
There will be **** greedy landlords. My initial point is that not all are like this so you cannot generalise. My parent is not and my landlord at uni has been great so I'm sorry if you have had a bad experience but that has not been mine and just because these stories are 'anecdotal' does not invalidate them as they are real experiences just like yours are
The issue is bigger than the individual relationships between landlord and tenant.

Landlords contribute nothing to society, particularly after the government guaranteed their 'investments' by bailing out the banks. Their net effect is to increase the difficulty of owning your own home (as you say, a tenant can be kicked out on the street by your mother with 3 months' notice, which you somehow think is too long) by hogging properties, inflating prices by buying even more and draining potential savings someone might have for a deposit. Sure, they'll pay someone to fix your boiler or washing machine every now and again, but that's a tiny proportion of what they charge in rent. Having indefinite tenancies is not a good solution as it does not address the underlying issues, but it does at least try to give people a secure place to live.
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ajj2000
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That might get them a lot of votes. Hate Corbyn but hate moving every year? People will vote Labour out of frustration. You get far more security for tenants and make property investment a lot less attractive - which reduces the cost of buying for owner occupation.
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ThomH97
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(Original post by CoolCavy)
Ok then. I disagree.
She's also not 'kicking them out' it's her house and she may well need it back once she initiated divorce proceedings.
I don't see the point in having this discussion with you, you seem intent on blaming landlords for everything . Bear in mind that some people actually want to rent as it gives them fluidity to move quickly .
But whatever .
I think the example of your mum is too personal to you, you can't empathise with the people that would be homeless after 3 months. In what way do you disagree with how landlords make it more difficult to own your own home?

You are correct that some people do want to rent for the flexibility, but even they will generally want to settle down somewhere, and have the security of knowing they won't get kicked out. Do you oppose people having that security and stability?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by ThomH97)
Landlords contribute nothing to society
Actually yes they do. The capital invested by landlords like the capital invested by owner occupiers drives the construction industry. Without private landlords there would be much less housebuilding.

What has gone wrong is that markets have become distorted by taxation and lending terms so that rents are higher than mortgages. If you think about it, that is economic nonsense. The benefits of renting are (a) the ability to move on 1-6 months notice and (b) no responsibility for "heavy" property maintenance but those benefits do not justify the price differential between renting and interest only mortgage borrowing.
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ajj2000
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Actually yes they do. The capital invested by landlords like the capital invested by owner occupiers drives the construction industry. Without private landlords there would be much less housebuilding.
Any evidence that there would be notably less housebuilding with fewer landlords?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by ajj2000)
Any evidence that there would be notably less housebuilding with fewer landlords?
There would be more housebuilding with fewer landlords investing the same amount of money into rented accommodation. Private renting in Britain is mostly in the hands of small landlords. Large commercial property investors would invest in private housing in a much more efficient way. The fact small landlords do and big landlords don't invest in residential property is a function of the housing finance market.
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ThomH97
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Actually yes they do. The capital invested by landlords like the capital invested by owner occupiers drives the construction industry. Without private landlords there would be much less housebuilding.
Note that I said in particular after the bailouts. Landlords effectively got a subsidy and guarantee from future taxpayers. If their 'investments' had been allowed to fall through to result in cheap houses that people would only bother to buy to live in, then sure.

What has gone wrong is that markets have become distorted by taxation and lending terms so that rents are higher than mortgages. If you think about it, that is economic nonsense. The benefits of renting are (a) the ability to move on 1-6 months notice and (b) no responsibility for "heavy" property maintenance but those benefits do not justify the price differential between renting and interest only mortgage borrowing.
I agree, though I think we're past the point where mortgage taxation changes alone will fix the problem. Apart from appropriating properties (which I could see happening under Corbyn/McDonnell), the solution is to build more and ensure the buyer lives there.
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ajj2000
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
There would be more housebuilding with fewer landlords investing the same amount of money into rented accommodation. Private renting in Britain is mostly in the hands of small landlords. Large commercial property investors would invest in private housing in a much more efficient way. The fact small landlords do and big landlords don't invest in residential property is a function of the housing finance market.
Not really what I was asking. Why do you believe that there would be a notably reduction in house building if there are fewer landlords investing? Wouldn't prices fall somewhat and the shortfall be made up by owner occupiers?
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insouciancedward
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I worked in a council housing department for two and a half years: checking social housing forms (applications/changes to living situations), checking applications for disability adaptations to homes and managing B&B bookings for homeless people. Having recently (and extremely unexpectedly) inherited some money from the abrupt death of my uncle (whom had no partner or children), I'll be buying a flat/house on the Kent coast sometime this year, which I'll be letting to tenants whilst I'm studying for my degree.

Having scanned that article, it sounds as though the aim is to curb evictions using s21 of the Housing Act, whereby landlords don't have to give any reason for eviction. They serve the tenants 2 months notice (2 full rental months, at least that was the law in September 2016, when I left that hell job behind) in writing, then after that period has elapsed, apply through a magistrates' court for a possession order. My memory is a b it vague now but I think that once the possession order is granted to the landlord, then if the tenants don't vacate the property, police can be called in to remove them.

So everybody bleating about landlords having no recourse to evict problem tenants.... This proposed change probably has no impact on that. There are other grounds in the Housing Act which landlords can use to evict problem tenants, e.g. s8 for accelerated possession. The reason that most landlords use section 21 evictions by default is that they don't have to give reason and therefore don't have to prove to a court that tenants have withheld rent or damaged the property. In cases where those things happen, it should be quite easy for landlords to make a case; they just don't want to spend their time and effort on such things.

Anyhow, I suppose this proposed measure would have some positive impact on the private rental sector, albeit rather a minor one. The elephants in the room - which all governments have been too scared to address for decades - are the nonsense of the 'right to buy' the council house you've lived in, guaranteed 5+ year council tenancies, the planning system, developers who do nothing with vacant land for years and prioritise profit over construction standards.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by ajj2000)
Not really what I was asking. Why do you believe that there would be a notably reduction in house building if there are fewer landlords investing? Wouldn't prices fall somewhat and the shortfall be made up by owner occupiers?
Price falls do not increase the number of buyers because lenders simply rein in lending.

Moreover, the cost of building is largely fixed as is the cost of development finance. Land that has already been bought has a fixed carrying cost. The only variable is developers' profit. If land prices fall and developers can't make money, they will shut up shop until the good times return.

The whole housing question is a function of money. To get more housing, you have to change financing of the housing market.
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