Second referendum supporters, do you want "no-deal" to be left off the ballo Watch

Burton Bridge
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Doones)
The thread is discussing the ComRes poll referenced in the OP.
and discussing the ComRes poll properly would mean you would criss examine it with other polls to access how much weight it carries?
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Doones
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#42
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
and discussing the ComRes poll properly would mean you would criss examine it with other polls to access how much weight it carries?
Go on then - quote some other polls.

YouGov?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...e-stand-brexit
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ColinDent
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#43
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(Original post by Doones)
Dude, do you know how opinion polls work? I linked the thread to the complete original poll ages ago - and now you're moaning about the sample size.

smh.
Yes I do, and with regards brexit they have been pretty consistent, with their inaccuracies.
There was a great big opinion poll in 2016 and we voted to leave, since then even this extensive poll is showing that less than 50% of those who are likely to vote would definitely vote to remain despite what you claim.
So still less than half those people want to remain in the EU despite the **** storm that May's handling and parliaments obstruction has caused.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Doones)
Go on then - quote some other polls.

YouGov?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...e-stand-brexit
Yes quite a large difference isn't there, I not read you're link but I believe that yougov has put remain further in the lead with no deal support being very low or it was in January time.

Also I don't belive any poll predicted a leave victory in 2016, so as I said it all largely depends on what you want to believe with polls. They really don't add much, what we need to do is put more energy into action, as I said this won't be put back in its box anytime soon not leaving the EU is not a viable option.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Open your eyes. On the elitist snobbery side are companies left right and centre either departing or waiting to see before departing. Money is moving. People are moving. Everyone from university professors to small, medium and large businesses are saying a hard Brexit will be a disaster. They then go on to list why it will be a disaster e.g. increased costs / prices / reduced jobs / investments etc etc. Even the government seems to be preparing a war room in the event of a hard Brexit.

Yet if that is pointed out and people who seem to be blind to or ignore this advice - that is elitest snobbery?

Tell me oh wise one - and I am still waiting. How will hard Brexit make my life better?
I answered you I gave 3 or 4 positives and as normal as soon as you lose the upper hand you didn't reply.

Like you did when you claimed in you're condensending manner the manufacturers local to me was tin pot in comparison to McLaren, and you even the implied I didn't know the McLaren was. Of course you were incorrect as usual and fell into silence.

Like you did when I pointed the gaping holes in you're strawman arugement regarding the dismise of UK Manufactureing again fell into slience.

Like you did when you went on a baseless rant vast benifits of EU membership, I replied and you went silent.

Now you claim 44% of people whom you have never met or spoken to are ignorant, the remainer elitist snobbery is repulsive.

There are plenty of reasons to be apprehensive of the change we are embark on, however I think it's important to see both sides and not cast people whom disagree with me as *enter buzz elitest insult here*. I don't have all the answers but to I do know strapping Rose coloured EU specs on is not a good strategy or good for our democracy or country.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 week ago
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Burton Bridge
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#46
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(Original post by Dez)
No survey is ever going to provide irrefutable evidence, as the opinion polls leading up to June 2016 proved oh so very well. Still, it is clear that support for remaining in the EU is on the rise, and it doesn't take a genius to guess at the main reason for that.
I don't see this in real life, in fact even on this heavily remain biast forum the majority of people who have changed their minds are remain to leave!


(Original post by Dez)
Neither side had a clear lead in 2016 either, we've already spent tons of taxpayer money on the farce of negotiations to get to where we are now, and our "hand" in the EU dealings is a complete and utter shambles. At this point, we've got very little to lose by pursuing another referendum, it's far less damaging than most of the other options on the table.
We have everything to lose having another referendum, not least giving our hand away in negotiation, eroding trust in democracy, adding further debt, and all for another 5 point either way lead and another round of crying for one side or the other,

Referendums are never the way forward, they don't work!

(Original post by Dez)
The leave campaign was prosecuted for breaking electoral law, and fined a substantial amount. Do you deny that?
No I don't and I dont condone it, our government broke electoral law also and I don't condone that either.

I think we need much greater control over the misleading political messages in the supposed newspapers and other media and the polical campaigns also.


(Original post by Dez)
No, I'm saying that if you really supported fairness, you would in fact be calling for a second referendum with gusto, given how demonstrably unfair the first one was.
But that's the thing the first one was not unfair, not more than the 2015 general election. The remain camp told lies, an immediate emergency budget bloody hell they said it destroy Western civilization as we know it now as BS goes that pretty much takes the cake!

(Original post by Dez)

Nobody "rigged" anything, lets not confuse terminology here. Breaking electoral law is not the same as rigging an election.
I never said anyone has rigged anything... Yet..
But you condone or at least make light of splitting the leave vote to guarantee remain win, which is a form of rigging a result in a way!
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Doones
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#47
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I don't see this in real life, in fact even on this heavily remain biast forum the majority of people who have changed their minds are remain to leave!
You mentioned you like the YouGov poll...
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Referendums are never the way forward, they don't work!
At least we agree on something.
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jp.lk12
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#48
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
What lovely example of Remainers elitest snobbery
I think it's a bit ignorant to generalise remainers with 'elitest snobbery'
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by jp.lk12)
I think it's a bit ignorant to generalise remainers with 'elitest snobbery'
All remainers yes you're right, I would certainly agree.

Let me be perfectly clear the message you highlight was against crass generalisations, not endorsing them.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Doones)
You mentioned you like the YouGov poll...
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At least we agree on something.
We do and that's the beauty of politics, in real discussion agreement is never far from the debate because most people want the same things in reality. Anyway referendums are a terrible idea, having another would be absolutely terrible regardless of who won.

Where have I said I like the yougov.co.uk poll, are you confusing me with someone else?
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Dez
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#51
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
What lovely example of Remainers elitest snobbery
It's not only remainers that think no deal brexit is an incredibly stupid idea. Any level-headed Brexiteer knows we need some kind of deal, if Brexit is going to go ahead and not be a disaster to the UK. Pretty much the only valid reason I've heard for keeping no deal a possibility is to improve our negotiating hand - something which I personally think is BS, but that's fairly subjective.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I don't see this in real life, in fact even on this heavily remain biast forum the majority of people who have changed their minds are remain to leave!
Okay, I guess we should throw out all the scientific polling that's been done and just roll with a single biased anecdote. I'm sure that's sensible. :rolleyes:

(btw - it's bias/biased, just fyi)

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
We have everything to lose having another referendum, not least giving our hand away in negotiation, eroding trust in democracy, adding further debt, and all for another 5 point either way lead and another round of crying for one side or the other,

Referendums are never the way forward, they don't work!
If you want to suggest a viable alternative, I'm all ears. No deal is not a viable alternative.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No I don't and I dont condone it, our government broke electoral law also and I don't condone that either.
So in that case, why do you still respect the result of the 2016 referendum?

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I think we need much greater control over the misleading political messages in the supposed newspapers and other media and the polical campaigns also.

But that's the thing the first one was not unfair, not more than the 2015 general election. The remain camp told lies, an immediate emergency budget bloody hell they said it destroy Western civilization as we know it now as BS goes that pretty much takes the cake!
Telling lies is immaterial, that's how referendums always work. This discussion is about breaking spending limits on campaigns, for which there is very material, concrete laws about.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I never said anyone has rigged anything... Yet..
Yes, actually you did. But if you're conceding the terminology that's fine.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
But you condone or at least make light of splitting the leave vote to guarantee remain win, which is a form of rigging a result in a way!
No I don't. You're assuming way too much about what I think. At what point did I ever make a suggestion that would split the leave vote?
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Burton Bridge
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#52
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(Original post by Dez)
It's not only remainers that think no deal brexit is an incredibly stupid idea. Any level-headed Brexiteer knows we need some kind of deal, if Brexit is going to go ahead and not be a disaster to the UK. Pretty much the only valid reason I've heard for keeping no deal a possibility is to improve our negotiating hand - something which I personally think is BS, but that's fairly subjective.



Okay, I guess we should throw out all the scientific polling that's been done and just roll with a single biased anecdote. I'm sure that's sensible. :rolleyes:

(btw - it's bias/biased, just fyi)



If you want to suggest a viable alternative, I'm all ears. No deal is not a viable alternative.



So in that case, why do you still respect the result of the 2016 referendum?



Telling lies is immaterial, that's how referendums always work. This discussion is about breaking spending limits on campaigns, for which there is very material, concrete laws about.



Yes, actually you did. But if you're conceding the terminology that's fine.



No I don't. You're assuming way too much about what I think. At what point did I ever make a suggestion that would split the leave vote?
Maybe you should read and listen to what I'm typing/saying rather than using conversation listening, to sound your own opinion.

1 I have not said anyone has rigged anything, go back and read my words.

2.your are assuming too much about what I think also.

3 telling lies is not immaterial at all, it's the exact point, it's misleading voters and what remainers have been moaning about for the last couple of years.

4 I respect the referendum because it happened, and I can't play mystic meg into the minds of the electorate so I have to respect their choice, its the same as I respect the 2015 and 17 GE even though Conservatives have been investigated for cheating but I did not vote Conservative and I personally think the tories are a disaster and without main stream propaganda they would never have won, but I don't cry foul etc.

5 if you read my posts you would know what I have already suggested.

6 instantly dismiss your first point because you are calling anyone who disagrees with you somehow to be deluded or thinking unrationally.

Come back when you can see both sides of the coin and are prepared to debate properly.
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Dez
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#53
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Maybe you should read and listen to what I'm typing/saying rather than using conversation listening, to sound your own opinion.

1 I have not said anyone has rigged anything, go back and read my words.
Please stop wasting my time with this political point-scoring. You brought up election rigging first, which is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand - breaking election law with spending limits.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
2.your are assuming too much about what I think also.

3 telling lies is not immaterial at all, it's the exact point, it's misleading voters and what remainers have been moaning about for the last couple of years.
It's immaterial to the point of the discussion we're having which is breaking campaign spending limits. You're deliberately changing the topic here in order to weasel out of answering my points.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
4 I respect the referendum because it happened, and I can't play mystic meg into the minds of the electorate so I have to respect their choice, its the same as I respect the 2015 and 17 GE even though Conservatives have been investigated for cheating but I did not vote Conservative and I personally think the tories are a disaster and without main stream propaganda they would never have won, but I don't cry foul etc.
So you are complicit with the leave campaign breaking UK electoral law then?

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
5 if you read my posts you would know what I have already suggested.
Sorry but I don't have time to re-read everything in this thread.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
6 instantly dismiss your first point because you are calling anyone who disagrees with you somehow to be deluded or thinking unrationally.
Supporting no deal in face of the metric crap-ton of evidence we have that it's a bad idea is pretty deluded, yes. It makes no logical sense to be calling for something which is almost certain to be a major detriment to the UK's quality of life.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Come back when you can see both sides of the coin and are prepared to debate properly.
Brexit is one side and remain is another. No deal is throwing the coin down the drain and plugging up the drain with ****.
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Burton Bridge
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Well Dez if its immaterial then don't accuse me of something you are doing yourself, I 9nly held the mirror up to you and if you read and take in what was being said the first time you would not have to reread it. I don't have the patience to keep repeating myself because you don't have the ability to read properly.

You talk like you know 100 what would happen in a no deal scenario and I just don't believe you do. You're opinions on no deal is yours but they are not fact and that's an important thing to remember.

I'm not changing any topic either, just because you don't understand what I'm saying does not mean I'm changing the subject! I don't condone election rules to being broken but we are where we are and under the current system (which I think should be changed) and we need to respect the system that we have. It might be an idea to have a look at abroad if you want to see real electoral cheating, to put some perspective on your argument.
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softwarefreak
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If Polls were a reliable source of data then the Brexit result would have been Remain.

Fortunately the BBC collates all data from Polls onto one page with a nice chart and the ability to select individual polling companies via a drop down menu.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36271589
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Doones
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(Original post by softwarefreak)
Fortunately the BBC collates all data from Polls onto one page with a nice chart and the ability to select individual polling companies via a drop down menu.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36271589
...that hasn't been updated since 2016. And those opinion polls show it was within their margin of error.

The final headline is "22 June 2016: Still no consistent picture"

And just before, the bullet point was "16 June 2016: Leave trend continues"
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softwarefreak
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It has not been updated due to it only referencing the EU Referendum of 2016.

I was following the percentages on the chart with regard to my statement, which do not show favour towards the Leave option.

Disclaimer - I just want certainty for my industries, and polls do nothing to support that goal.
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Doones
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(Original post by softwarefreak)
It has not been updated due to it only referencing the EU Referendum of 2016.

I was following the percentages on the chart with regard to my statement, which do not show favour towards the Leave option.

Disclaimer - I just want certainty for my industries, and polls do nothing to support that goal.
Yes it does, it shows there were polls on the 22nd from YouGov and Opinium with Leave ahead. There were similar polls showing Leave ahead on the 16th. Nearly all the polls in the final weeks were very tight and within the (usually 3%) margin of error. The chart shows that very clearly.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Doones)
Yes it does, it shows there were polls on the 22nd from YouGov and Opinium with Leave ahead. And again, nearly all the polls in the final weeks were very tight and within the (usually 3%) margin of error..
Dear god, are you still trying to convince everyone as to the accuracy of polls?
We've already worked out that the poll the op used shows that less than half of those particular 2000 people that were likely to vote wanted to remain.
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Doones
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Dear god, are you still trying to convince everyone as to the accuracy of polls?
We've already worked out that the poll the op used shows that less than half of those particular 2000 people that were likely to vote wanted to remain.
"Margin of error"

And even fewer want to Leave.
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