backstop Watch

lowwkey
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#1
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in order to respect the good friday agreement, there are two options:

A. make the whole UK a customs union & follow some single markets regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free
B. make NI a customs union & follow some single market regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free

why can't the government do B? i understand it will mean goods from UK to NI will have to be checked which breaks the 'integrity of the union' & it breaks May's red lines, but surely this is the best choice? she can get the 10 DUP votes from labour. if the Govt did this then we wouldn't need the backstop at all and therefore avoid a repeat of todays shenanigans. which creates certainty for businesses & gets Govt back to dealing with domestic issues.
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LeapingLucy
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Because she didn't just lose by 10 votes - she lost by 149. It's not just the DUP who don't like it. There are also many Conservative MPs (ERG-types) who, having ignored Northern Ireland for decades, have suddenly decided that it being treated any differently to the rest of the UK is unconscionable...
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paul514
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(Original post by lowwkey)
in order to respect the good friday agreement, there are two options:

A. make the whole UK a customs union & follow some single markets regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free
B. make NI a customs union & follow some single market regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free

why can't the government do B? i understand it will mean goods from UK to NI will have to be checked which breaks the 'integrity of the union' & it breaks May's red lines, but surely this is the best choice? she can get the 10 DUP votes from labour. if the Govt did this then we wouldn't need the backstop at all and therefore avoid a repeat of todays shenanigans. which creates certainty for businesses & gets Govt back to dealing with domestic issues.
She needs to win labour votes and by not doing anything like a proper brexit or ERG votes by doing a proper brexit.

She wouldn’t have lost if she had those ERG votes
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by paul514)
She needs to win labour votes and by not doing anything like a proper brexit or ERG votes by doing a proper brexit.

She wouldn’t have lost if she had those ERG votes
The ERG votes don't give her a win however. Anything that is good enough for the ERG results in net loss of other votes (Tory Remainers less Labour Brexiteers) sufficient to defeat the Government even with DUP support and DUP support itself turns on other issues than the main Leave/Remain Axis. Essentially, the numbers have never been there for her to win by pivoting rightwards.
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QE2
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(Original post by lowwkey)
in order to respect the good friday agreement, there are two options:

A. make the whole UK a customs union & follow some single markets regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free
B. make NI a customs union & follow some single market regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free

why can't the government do B? i understand it will mean goods from UK to NI will have to be checked which breaks the 'integrity of the union' & it breaks May's red lines, but surely this is the best choice? she can get the 10 DUP votes from labour. if the Govt did this then we wouldn't need the backstop at all and therefore avoid a repeat of todays shenanigans. which creates certainty for businesses & gets Govt back to dealing with domestic issues.
So basically, avoid doing something that contravenes a whole load of inviolate stuff by doing something that contravenes a whole load of inviolate stuff.
Or essentially, political whack-a-mole.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
The ERG votes don't give her a win however. Anything that is good enough for the ERG results in net loss of other votes (Tory Remainers less Labour Brexiteers) sufficient to defeat the Government even with DUP support and DUP support itself turns on other issues than the main Leave/Remain Axis. Essentially, the numbers have never been there for her to win by pivoting rightwards.
Her problem of course is that if she passs the deal by capitulating to Labour then she is gone in December. I very much believe that she still thinks there is a way to fudge and keep herself around a few years.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by lowwkey)
in order to respect the good friday agreement, there are two options:

A. make the whole UK a customs union & follow some single markets regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free
B. make NI a customs union & follow some single market regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free

why can't the government do B? i understand it will mean goods from UK to NI will have to be checked which breaks the 'integrity of the union' & it breaks May's red lines, but surely this is the best choice? she can get the 10 DUP votes from labour. if the Govt did this then we wouldn't need the backstop at all and therefore avoid a repeat of todays shenanigans. which creates certainty for businesses & gets Govt back to dealing with domestic issues.
To answer B requires you only to type the full title of the Tory Party.

There are some things that can never happen with Labour in power, others that can never happen with the Tories in power.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by lowwkey)
in order to respect the good friday agreement, there are two options:

A. make the whole UK a customs union & follow some single markets regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free
B. make NI a customs union & follow some single market regulation to keep the border between rep of Ire and NI free

why can't the government do B? i understand it will mean goods from UK to NI will have to be checked which breaks the 'integrity of the union' & it breaks May's red lines, but surely this is the best choice? she can get the 10 DUP votes from labour. if the Govt did this then we wouldn't need the backstop at all and therefore avoid a repeat of todays shenanigans. which creates certainty for businesses & gets Govt back to dealing with domestic issues.
She ruined it. She should have had a clean break and then begun a new relationship with the EU. Instead, she tried to appease everyone, whilst trying to be in the EU without remaining in the EU.

It was obvious that the EU would play hardball, but what is sad is that our own politicians have created a state of affairs that has made it impossible to make progress.

I think this process shows how out of touch the politicians are and against democracy. People are so entrenched in their views that they are unwilling to see the clear erosion of democracy.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Her problem of course is that if she passs the deal by capitulating to Labour then she is gone in December. I very much believe that she still thinks there is a way to fudge and keep herself around a few years.
Her problem is that she believes that everything can be fudged.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Rakas21)
To answer B requires you only to type the full title of the Tory Party.
Except the DUP position has always been a load of cobblers.

Here is Arlene Foster wanting a differential Corporation Tax rate with rest of the UK. So much no hard border across the Irish Sea.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ster-1.2975654
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paul514
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
The ERG votes don't give her a win however. Anything that is good enough for the ERG results in net loss of other votes (Tory Remainers less Labour Brexiteers) sufficient to defeat the Government even with DUP support and DUP support itself turns on other issues than the main Leave/Remain Axis. Essentially, the numbers have never been there for her to win by pivoting rightwards.
They do give her a win the 3 labour brexiteers will vote for any leave deal.
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lowwkey
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(Original post by Rakas21)
To answer B requires you only to type the full title of the Tory Party.

There are some things that can never happen with Labour in power, others that can never happen with the Tories in power.
i did not know that... you learn something new everyday. is labour as unionist then? if not, then surely a GE in the hope of Labour (or an alternative party) coming into power, would surely be the best option?
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lowwkey
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
She ruined it. She should have had a clean break and then begun a new relationship with the EU. Instead, she tried to appease everyone, whilst trying to be in the EU without remaining in the EU.

It was obvious that the EU would play hardball, but what is sad is that our own politicians have created a state of affairs that has made it impossible to make progress.

I think this process shows how out of touch the politicians are and against democracy. People are so entrenched in their views that they are unwilling to see the clear erosion of democracy.
had she cleanly exited the EU we would be in the same position with the Irish border? NI wouldn't of have been part of the Single Market/Customs Union and so the EU would force the installment of a hard border
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Rakas21
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(Original post by lowwkey)
i did not know that... you learn something new everyday. is labour as unionist then? if not, then surely a GE in the hope of Labour (or an alternative party) coming into power, would surely be the best option?
A majority of Labour MP's are unionist however there are many like Corbyn who would betray the union. Their primary devotion is to socialism in one country, they don't much care if that country gets a little smaller from time to time so long as they have their socialist paradise.

Unfortunately for yourself i have alluded to your problem. To vote for a party willing to damage the union would require voting for Corbyn and what that brings. The weakening of the monarchy, the weakening of british defense, the destruction of historic alliances in favour of supporting terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah ect..

That is not a price the country should pay.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by lowwkey)
had she cleanly exited the EU we would be in the same position with the Irish border? NI wouldn't of have been part of the Single Market/Customs Union and so the EU would force the installment of a hard border
We are one country and should have negotiated as one country. If we left and then made a deal, we would have been better off. However, we are trying to get a deal whilst trying to please everyone. It does not happen.
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