MP has solution for knife crime!!! Watch

Dandaman1
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Wired_1800)
These are true and I don't refute them.

We need to get the knives currently there, off the streets. Then try to ensure the new ones dont get on the streets.

We also should not label it a “black” problem because Glasgow was also plagued with such violence. Once we treat it as a British problem and work on the source (as you rightly pointed out), then we can solve these problems.

Finally, we also have to talk about support. It is not new that the Government’s cuts have wrecked many communities, who have turned to drug sales. We cannot put all the blame on them.
Knife crime disproportionately impacts black communities and involves a large number of black perpetrators for their population size. You can certainly find white majority jurisdictions where knife crime is (or was) very high, but to use them as a way to discount disproportionate black involvement in the rest of the nation is a bit of a red herring. It's not being suggested that knife crime is or always has been a uniquely black problem, but it is still a problem.

In England and Wales, knife offences per 100,000 people in London are more than double that of the next highest region (Yorkshire and Humber). Freedom of Information requests have shown that murder, violent crime and knife crime have a disproportionate black involvement when looking at population differences (overwhelmingly so in London.)

London is where knife crime is at its worst, most significantlty in communities with a high black population, therefore it makes sense to focus efforts here. Remember, blacks themselves are suffering the most from it, so this isn't necessarily a vilification.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Dandaman1)
Knife crime disproportionately impacts black communities and involves a large number of black perpetrators for their population size. You can certainly find white majority jurisdictions where knife crime is (or was) very high, but to use them as a way to discount disproportionate black involvement in the rest of the nation is a bit of a red herring. It's not being suggested that knife crime is or always has been a uniquely black problem, but it is still a problem.

In England and Wales, knife offences per 100,000 people in London are more than double that of the next highest region (Yorkshire and Humber). Freedom of Information requests have shown that murder, violent crime and knife crime have a disproportionate black involvement when looking at population differences (overwhelmingly so in London.)

London is where knife crime is at its worst, most significantlty in communities with a high black population, therefore it makes sense to focus efforts here. Remember, blacks themselves are suffering the most from it, so this isn't necessarily a vilification.
You are focused too much on London and may have forgotten or initially omitted Glasgow, where it was an epidemic. The resulting action there was to target the source of the problem and tackle it using another set of lens.

The issue why it affects black communities in London is because the drug sale culture is predominantly centred in poor black and other ethnic minorities. This was the same as the drug sale culture in Glasgow was predominantly centred in poor white communities. The common denominator was poverty.

I think we should focus on solutions. Many people tend to focus other things and sometimes venture into the race debate. If we focused on solutions, I think we would be able to produce better impacts in these communities.
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Decahedron
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
At least he made a suggestion, rather than stick his head in the sand and pretend there is no issue.

Stop and search reduced the carriage of knives when it was previously used. Unfortunately it was racially biased.

There are layers to the solution which include control of sharp objects including knives, more funding in local communities and harsher punishments.
There is such a thing as a bad idea...
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Dandaman1
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
You are focused too much on London and may have forgotten or initially omitted Glasgow, where it was an epidemic. The resulting action there was to target the source of the problem and tackle it using another set of lens.

The issue why it affects black communities in London is because the drug sale culture is predominantly centred in poor black and other ethnic minorities. This was the same as the drug sale culture in Glasgow was predominantly centred in poor white communities. The common denominator was poverty.

I think we should focus on solutions. Many people tend to focus other things and sometimes venture into the race debate. If we focused on solutions, I think we would be able to produce better impacts in these communities.
I didn’t forget Glasgow - I just didn't mention it by name. But again, this is a bit of a red herring. It doesn’t change the fact that, in the UK today, knife crime (plus murder and violent crime in general) is a problem that is more prevalent in black areas for a number of reasons (drugs, gangs, single parenthood rates, etc.).

I'm not saying we should focus solely on black communities like they are the reason or pretend being black is the problem (it's not), but to recognise that black communities are where the problem is worse due to a number of social, cultural and economic factors that disproportionately involve the black demographic. These issues need the most attention here because it's where they are seemingly at their worst.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Decahedron)
There is such a thing as a bad idea...
Yes, of course; but I don't see you making a suggestion. That’s our problem, we bash other people’s suggestions but don't make counter suggestions. Always looking for problems rather than searching for solutions.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Dandaman1)
I didn’t forget Glasgow - I just didn't mention it by name. But again, this is a bit of a red herring. It doesn’t change the fact that, in the UK today, knife crime (plus murder and violent crime in general) is a problem that is more prevalent in black areas for a number of reasons (drugs, gangs, single parenthood rates, etc.).

I'm not saying we should focus solely on black communities like they are the reason or pretend being black is the problem (it's not), but to recognise that black communities are where the problem is worse due to a number of social, cultural and economic factors that disproportionately involve the black demographic. These issues need the most attention here because it's where they are seemingly at their worst.
What? This is rubbish.
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yankeedog1953
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Here is my proposal. I dont have a clue as to how you can protect yourself. If i did have a proposal it would be something along the lines of, " Your defense against a knife attack is not my problem. I'm not there. I can tell you what my defense is against an individual with a knife. The problem you folks are having is you are trying to defend everybody who may be and are going to be attacked, from every khife carrying criminal. You can't do that!!!
Thats why your coming up with solutions like registering knives so they can maybe identify the attacker. But guess what, your already dead or wounded by then.
It's called self-defense because thats what it is..It's not crowd defense.
You are defending you and if you want it to be effective you should realise that your responsible for it because if something happens it will probably be just you. It takes only 10sec. to what, maybe 30 sec to get killed by a knife so don't expect any help from anyone.
You folks have been pretty well neutered. when it comes to effective self-defense. If your not willing to carry a gun, or pepper spray I don't know what to tell you. You notice I did'nt say knife. At best a knife would create a mutual combat senario which isn't ideal unless your trained with a knife.
If I'm find myself in a dangerous situation I have my hand on my 38.rev. in my jacket pocket. If someone confronts me aggressively. i have the option of pulling it out so the grip is exposed and this gives the gentlemen the option of turning around and walking away. This in itself is very effective. If the worst should ever happen and an comes at me armed with anything and I am truly " in fear for my life", I can point the 38. at him and fire while it's still in my pocket.
Is my method 100% effective every time, No.
Maybe I don't see him in time and get stabbed.
Getting stabbed, even several times is in most cases not fatal unless a vital organ is hit. So I still have time to use my weapon.
But no defense is 100%. I'm quite sure that registering knives will add 0% onto the effectivness of whatever self-defense you can come up with.
Do you have anything in your political system like referendums in the US.?
Maybe you could have some of those strange self defense laws eliminated or change because as it is you have nothing you can call self defense for the individual and that is key. The individual. Screw the collective.
.
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Decahedron
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Yes, of course; but I don't see you making a suggestion. That’s our problem, we bash other people’s suggestions but don't make counter suggestions. Always looking for problems rather than searching for solutions.
I made quite a few suggestions in other threads on the topic and I have made a suggestion in this thread.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Decahedron)
I made quite a few suggestions in other threads on the topic and I have made a suggestion in this thread.
Can you share the suggestion that you made on this thread? I have had a look and did not find it.
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yankeedog1953
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I wish i could respond to a specific post from my phone. Am I not seeing something which would allow me to?

Anyway, someone said all guns in the U.S..are registered. There is no law in any state which requires guns to be registered.
Why in the world would I want the state to know if I owned a firearm? It is absolutely none of the states business if I own a firearm. The state agrees. hence the lack of a law regarding the subject..A machine gun cannot be privately owned. A permit to USE one for a specific can be obtained but I don't believe your allowed to take it home. Nor are you allowed to deviate from a pre-approved travel plan. They want to know where the weapon is at all times.
There is a lot of false info on here about Us gun laws
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Decahedron
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Can you share the suggestion that you made on this thread? I have had a look and did not find it.
Legalise drugs to destroy the illegal drug market which seems to be fuelling gangs and their violence.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Decahedron)
Legalise drugs to destroy the illegal drug market which seems to be fuelling gangs and their violence.
Oh, yes I saw that. I thought you were joking. We cannot legalise drugs because it destroys lives. We should have a zero tolerance policy towards drug use, sale and distribution (my opinion).

The issue is that we pretend to be against drugs but then lowkey purchase from the local dealer.

Also we are forgetting the issues of poverty in this quagmire.
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Decahedron
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Oh, yes I saw that. I thought you were joking. We cannot legalise drugs because it destroys lives. We should have a zero tolerance policy towards drug use, sale and distribution (my opinion).

The issue is that we pretend to be against drugs but then lowkey purchase from the local dealer.

Also we are forgetting the issues of poverty in this quagmire.
The police don't have the resources to fight a war on drugs (that they have already lost) while also trying to combat violent crime, while spending thousands of hours dealing with mental health crises that are spilling over from the NHS being total inept.

A lot of drugs don't destroy lives, you get a handful of cases each year of people who took recreational use to habitual use. But the regulation and taxation of a legal drugs market would do wonders for our underfunded public services.

And I know you may say "but wont the increased drug use make those services work harder?". It likely will but if we look at cigarettes as a great example, the tax revenue gained from their sale covers the NHS spending on cigarette related illnesses about 3 times over.

People are always going to take drugs, might as well make some money off it and reduce violence in the process.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Decahedron)
The police don't have the resources to fight a war on drugs (that they have already lost) while also trying to combat violent crime, while spending thousands of hours dealing with mental health crises that are spilling over from the NHS being total inept.

A lot of drugs don't destroy lives, you get a handful of cases each year of people who took recreational use to habitual use. But the regulation and taxation of a legal drugs market would do wonders for our underfunded public services.

And I know you may say "but wont the increased drug use make those services work harder?". It likely will but if we look at cigarettes as a great example, the tax revenue gained from their sale covers the NHS spending on cigarette related illnesses about 3 times over.

People are always going to take drugs, might as well make some money off it and reduce violence in the process.
Fair points. However, I think the best way to stem the flow is to aggressively control it.

The issue with drugs IMO is the gradual increase in strength and to more dangerous and potent alternatives. Even standard drugs like weed and alcohol are getting stronger as people are becoming more stable to their effects.

Also when you legalise it, you get many drug takers demand their rights to be taken care of after an overdose. We see it with alcohol, where alcoholics and idiots drain the NHS. Their response is that they have paid their taxes on their drink and deserved to be seen by an overworked and underpaid doctor.
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jameswhughes
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
At least he made a suggestion, rather than stick his head in the sand and pretend there is no issue.

Stop and search reduced the carriage of knives when it was previously used. Unfortunately it was racially biased.

There are layers to the solution which include control of sharp objects including knives, more funding in local communities and harsher punishments.
Great, so while most of us will need a licence to buy a breadknife or scissors at Tesco, gangs will still be running around with knives as stopping and searching them would be racist. :lol:
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Decahedron
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Fair points. However, I think the best way to stem the flow is to aggressively control it.

The issue with drugs IMO is the gradual increase in strength and to more dangerous and potent alternatives. Even standard drugs like weed and alcohol are getting stronger as people are becoming more stable to their effects.

Also when you legalise it, you get many drug takers demand their rights to be taken care of after an overdose. We see it with alcohol, where alcoholics and idiots drain the NHS. Their response is that they have paid their taxes on their drink and deserved to be seen by an overworked and underpaid doctor.
The heart of the problem really lies with a total lack of funding to public services.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by jameswhughes)
Great, so while most of us will need a licence to buy a breadknife or scissors at Tesco, gangs will still be running around with knives as stopping and searching them would be racist. :lol:
No i did not say it. The Government’s own review showed that stop and search was too focused on young black men.

I have no problem with stop and search. I think it should be done across the board and not targeted at black people.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Decahedron)
The heart of the problem really lies with a total lack of funding to public services.
That is true
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Wōden
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Here is my view and I am not saying it is universal fact (before someone responds with aggressive rage)

First, I never said that should be done alone. There are many parts of the knife crime situation. We need to attack the source of the issue which are drugs and poverty. Then try to resolve the issue with violent attacks with knives.

1. If it was me, I would ask everyone to return their knives to be replaced by a barcoded replacement. You go to designated local shops to return your old knives and get the new ones. To control costs, everyone will be issue with 2 new knives in the first instance.

2. You are correct. Nothing can stop them, but everyone will be responsible for their knives. It is like a gun in the US, if it goes missing, you are in trouble. If it is found at a crime scene, you are responsible and have to be questioned. All guns are registered in the US.

3. This would be done through a series of actions. First, increase stop and search to everyone both men and women as well as black, white and asian. Anyone caught with knives receive zero tolerance. Second, people monitor their own knives. If your knife is gone, it is your responsibility.

4. These can also be registered. However, seeing that knives are the weapons of choice, we would start with those weapons.

5. True. Like I said before, knives are the weapons of choice at the moment. Once there is move towards other weapons, there would be decisions on how to control those materials. Bear in mind that there are other programmes to reduce the likelihood of individuals falling into the drug crime and joining gangs.

To your final point, I don't agree. I think it can be controlled.
1) "Hello criminals, would you be so kind as to turn all your knives in so we can issue you with your official, government approved, barcoded knives? Thank you". Yep, that will definitely work.....

2) "Oh and please don't be tempted to remove the barcodes, thank you." Yep, that will definitely work too... Furthermore, whatever systems they have in the US are clearly not very effective, their rate of gun related violence remains considerably and consistently higher than our respective rate of knife related violence, so why do you think emulating them will have a better effect here? As I said before, you can't control knives the same way you control guns (frankly even guns are not that easy to control, thousands of them still find their way into the wrong hands). They are far too common and widespread and too easy to manufacture.

3) I agree stop and search needs to return and anybody found with a knife (or any weapon) in public without a lawful reason should face strict punishment, especially if their intent was to cause harm, you don't need to barcode or register every knife to do this. But the police don't have the manpower to stop and search everybody everywhere. It has to be applied where it will have the most effect, e.g areas that already have high rates of knife crime and on the demographics most likely to commit such offences, the overwhelming majority of violent crime is commited by young males in their teens or 20s (and dare I mention the certain ethnicities who are overrepresented in these types of crimes?) It would be a waste of time for the police to go around stopping and searching random middle aged women in a quiet, rural town with almost no crime.

4) Well great. I look forward to this dystopian future where every nail I buy has to be barcoded and registered.

5) Why would they move to other weapons when they will still be able to easily access knives (even if they have to resort to making them)? Come on man, your idea is nuts. None of it is remotely feasible or logistical and it only targets one symptom of the wider issue. The time and resources are better spent solely on strategies that target the root causes of violent crime. Scotland has been very successful in this regard, over the past few years they have managed to reduce their rate of knife murders to practically zero, and they didn't need an incredibly convoluted (and no doubt incredibly expensive) system of knife barcoding and registration to achieve it.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Wōden)
1) "Hello criminals, would you be so kind as to turn all your knives in so we can issue you with your official, government approved, barcoded knives? Thank you". Yep, that will definitely work.....

2) "Oh and please don't be tempted to remove the barcodes, thank you." Yep, that will definitely work too... Furthermore, whatever systems they have in the US are clearly not very effective, their rate of gun related violence remains considerably and consistently higher than our respective rate of knife related violence, so why do you think emulating them will have a better effect here? As I said before, you can't control knives the same way you control guns (frankly even guns are not that easy to control, thousands of them still find their way into the wrong hands). They are far too common and widespread and too easy to manufacture.

3) I agree stop and search needs to return and anybody found with a knife (or any weapon) in public without a lawful reason should face strict punishment, especially if their intent was to cause harm, you don't need to barcode or register every knife to do this. But the police don't have the manpower to stop and search everybody everywhere. It has to be applied where it will have the most effect, e.g areas that already have high rates of knife crime and on the demographics most likely to commit such offences, the overwhelming majority of violent crime is commited by young males in their teens or 20s (and dare I mention the certain ethnicities who are overrepresented in these types of crimes?) It would be a waste of time for the police to go around stopping and searching random middle aged women in a quiet, rural town with almost no crime.

4) Well great. I look forward to this dystopian future where every nail I buy has to be barcoded and registered.

5) Why would they move to other weapons when they will still be able to easily access knives (even if they have to resort to making them)? Come on man, your idea is nuts. None of it is remotely feasible or logistical and it only targets one symptom of the wider issue. The time and resources are better spent solely on strategies that target the root causes of violent crime. Scotland has been very successful in this regard, over the past few years they have managed to reduce their rate of knife murders to practically zero, and they didn't need an incredibly convoluted (and no doubt incredibly expensive) system of knife barcoding and registration to achieve it.
1. The criminals would have their knives and it would be easy to track them through the barcodes or UV tags.

2. I think guns are different because of the approach to gun attacks. With knives you have to be close to your victim while gun shooters can be far away and just need to have a decent aim, which is horrible to know.

The principle that I used with guns is the registration and required control. You have to control your gun, just like you have to control your knife.

3. I don't agree. Stop and search should be for everyone. If you would stop a random 29 year old black man, you should also expect to stop and search a random 29 year old white man. If you are removing groups, then all members should be removed.

There are stories of people, who have been in groups of mixed gender and race, but the police have targeted the young black men in the group.

4. Even meat is registered and regulated by law. Don't worry, it wont be dystopian.

5. That was why I stated that there are several layers to an effective social policy on knife crime. We focus on control of the knives, control of supply of drugs with aggressive repercussions, investment and funding to local communities, funding for more police officers etc.
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