Richard Dawkins condemns the terrorist attacks in NZ Watch

Tawheed
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He was very swift s=as he condemned the terrorist attacks in Paris, the US, and Manchester, glad to see Dawkins also condemn the one on NZ:

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Tamimur
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Is this supposed to be sarcastic or am I missing something.
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AJ126
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Why wouldn't he? He's against God not Muslims.Its very lazy to conflate critism of Islam with being a racist who wants to murder Muslims.
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username4548094
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(Original post by AJ126)
Why wouldn't he? He's against God not Muslims.Its very lazy to conflate critism of Islam with being a racist who wants to murder Muslims.
To a great extent, he’s also against religion.
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karl pilkington
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Terrorist attacks are so common some people don't I don't think he condemned the London bridge or Westminster either.
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AJ126
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(Original post by 150319)
To a great extent, he’s also against religion.
That's what I said.Hes against Islam.Thats not the same as being against Muslims.Indeed the biggest victims of Islam are in fact Muslims themselves.
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Tawheed
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(Original post by Libtardian)
It is the equivalent of shooting up a mental hospital.
wow
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Onde
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It is odd that the OP is criticising someone for not publicly condemning a specific act of terror, especially when that person has previously condemned all acts of terrorism and especially considering that the OP follows a religion which has a central text that is considered by its adherents a timeless and perfect guide to morality despite having passages that condone terrorism such as "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies." and eternal torture such as "And enough is Hell for a burning fire. Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."

We live in an age where terrorism and torture are illegal according to international law: they are contrary to the minimum standard of behaviour. However, sadly, there are cases where individuals would sooner criticise someone for taking this minimum standard of behaviour for granted rather than focus on criticising those who breach this minimum standard of behaviour or promote ideologies that run contrary to it.
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harrysbar
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(Original post by 150319)
To a great extent, he’s also against religion.
Yes, but he's only against Islam in the same way that he's against Christianity and all the other religions. He doesn't hate everyone in the world who is religious, his personal opinion is just that they're misguided. That doesn't make him racist.
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Obolinda
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Ok? don't see why we needed a whole thread on this.
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Ascend
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(Original post by Obolinda)
Ok? don't see why we needed a whole thread on this.
OP is stuck in 2006 and thinks Dawkins is the prophet of atheists. Ironically, no one else has given Dawkins more attention on TSR than OP.
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LegallyJasmine
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The terror that transpired was imposed on people not religion itself regardless of the shooter’s motives. He shot people. Not shocking someone thinks murdering people is a condemnable act.
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AJ126
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(Original post by LegallyJasmine)
The terror that transpired was imposed on people not religion itself regardless of the shooter’s motives. He shot people. Not shocking someone thinkings murdering people is a condemnable act.



Wow. Yes they’re such poor victims. Forced by Islam’s malicious preachings of finding peace within themselves, being kind to one another and its emphasis on living a life of gratitude. Such victims 🙄 If you’re talking about the image the media perpetuates of Islam, it is far from the truth from how people in the countries here are (excluding Saudi Arabia). Some people in Saudi Arabia and extreme islamic communities could instead be described as victims of a corrupt government or corrupt people and outdated culture that is conflated with religion. But to generalize something like that is just pure ignorance.
They are victims.They've been brainwashed into believing that there is a magical man in the sky.Said magical man enforces rules like circumcision, the oppression of women, the forbiddance of alcohol, not eating pork and detests atheism or homosexuality.

You might not feel that they are victims but they are.Imagine being a Muslim woman in Saudi Arabia or Iran.You'd have to cover up all day long even in the hottest temperatures Even here it's frowned upon if they dress without covering up.Thats not freedom.Its oppression.And God help you if you just so happen to be a Muslim who is also gay.Even here it's frowned upon but in most Muslim countries it's illegal and results in death or imprisonment.So yes they are very much victims of religious brainwashing.They'd
probably be much happier without Islam.Its not even just Saudi Arabia either.A women in Indonesia recently got whipped for kissing a man.An atheist in Bangladesh was hacked to death with machetes.A similar fate awaited a Pakistani student.Muslim countries are pretty much all oppressive.Give one example where Islam has actually led to people having more freedom.Its totalitarian in it's nature.
Last edited by AJ126; 1 week ago
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LegallyJasmine
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1) Ah, so like every other Abrahamic religion. 2) "Oppression of women"? First off, I am going to remind you again that I live in a Muslim community and country so I know what I'm talking about here and I'm not just being any other SJW since I actually live through this, and have lived through this all my life. I am also an atheist so this means I am not that affected and brainwashed by the messages of these texts and my comments to you are not based on something as irrational as belief in a deity. So this is what I have to say:

"Muslim countries are pretty much all oppressive", what about Syria (before the war), Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (which is mostly Muslim?) You seem to forget that in each and every case you're mentioning, it's the powerful taking advantage of the weak, under whatever pretext. And "Muslim women" are oppressed not because of Islam, but because of lack of education and awareness of their rights, which Islam categorically gives them. So no, it's not Muslim women who feel oppressed, it's women without basic education who are oppressed; and whosoever lacks basic education and an appreciation or understanding of human rights, they will be oppressed, be it man, woman or child, irrespective of colour or religion. Of the oppressed people across the world, women form a chunk, and of that chunk, some women will be Muslim. To synonymize oppression with Muslim women or Muslim women with oppression is a disservice to everyone who is fighting for their rights.

Yes Muslim countries due to extreme poverty and broken political systems have faced intellectual ghettoization, and have not been able to market an attractive brand, it doesn’t mean the product is flawed. Without livelihood, opportunities to better their economic situations, with no support from the government, a lot of impressionable minds fall through the cracks and end up in the wrong hands – elements who will “use” these people for their own nefarious purposes.

Women in Pakistan work; in the huge parallel, undocumented economy. They work in the fields in the agri-sector in villages, and what’s called the “cottage industry”. In the urban areas women can be found in every field of life. Remember, we even had the first female prime minister in the Muslim world (She was elected PM - twice).

And for most part, people here (TSR) are intelligent, empathetic and a pleasure to be around. Yet at the same time the bias and ignorance about certain topics is astounding. The vehemence with which people want to hold on to their opinions is shocking. Or will we only open our minds further in the direction of our preconceived notions, because any POV that challenges our worldview must be wrong and thus opposed?
.

I have never felt opressed by the religion, and if I did feel opressed it was as a result of closed-minded individuals, and of old cultural traditions that people seem to conflate with religion -- but never have I once felt the religion opressed me and instead I felt at times valued and treated justly for being a woman by some of its preachings.

You also brought up other points I will happily answer but seems this is already too long of a response. Call me out on them again and I'll again happily provide you with an answer.

*Btw, the hijab and burka are still debated in our communities and not everyone believes the text itself advocated for them. The rising opinion at the moment in some communities seems to be that it was a misinterpretation of the text. So things like that you also cannot generalise.


(Original post by AJ126)
They are victims.They've been brainwashed into believing that there is a magical man in the sky.Said magical man enforces rules like circumcision, the oppression of women, the forbiddance of alcohol, not eating pork and detests atheism or homosexuality.

You might not feel that they are victims but they are.Imagine being a Muslim woman in Saudi Arabia or Iran.You'd have to cover up all day long even in the hottest temperatures Even here it's frowned upon if they dress without covering up.Thats not freedom.Its oppression.And God help you if you just so happen to be a Muslim who is also gay.Even here it's frowned upon but in most Muslim countries it's illegal and results in death or imprisonment.So yes they are very much victims of religious brainwashing.They'd probably be much happier without Islam.Its not even just Saudi Arabia either.A women in Indonesia recently got whipped for kissing a man.An atheist in Bangladesh was hacked to death with machetes.A similar fate awaited a Pakistani student.Muslim countries are pretty much all oppressive.Give one example where Islam has actually led to people having more freedom.Its totalitarian in it's nature.
Last edited by LegallyJasmine; 1 week ago
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Chakede
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(Original post by LegallyJasmine)
Forced by Islam’s malicious preachings of finding peace within themselves, being kind to one another and its emphasis on living a life of gratitude. Such victims 🙄 If you’re talking about the image the media perpetuates of Islam, it is far from the truth from how people in the countries here are (excluding Saudi Arabia).
no probably the ones about slavery and female castigation, about inequality of gender, sexuality etand those about calling for war against unbelievers - amoung others.
oh and the subsequent bloody history of islam spreading from saudi to those other countries you refer being amoung the worst in human history

but apart form that...


not that it has anything to do with NZ attacks. the killer had an issue with immigration and people in general , not just islam and its history
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The premise of this thread is frankly disgusting - you were expecting him to condone the slaughter of innocent people? Would you do the same, or is your opinion of people who disagree with you that low?
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LegallyJasmine
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Read my previous post. Slavery?? You saying that proves you haven't researched this properly... Please do not confuse the Ridda/ apostasy wars that occurred after the death of Muhamed with the preachings of the religion itself.

But apart "form that", I do not think people who probably have googled about this from Wikipedia are in a better position than I am someone who has been taught the religion since a very early age and is in a Muslim community and family to tell me better about what I have been taught. Of course I am not claiming I am the reflection of every single Muslim in the world, but I am claiming that (if you check my other post) there are other things to be considered and I'm tired of this ignorance.

I know that's the case, wasn't claiming it necessarily was only about religion, I talked about history when I was refuting another point. Just put the part about his motives out there in case someone sidetracks the argument down that route.
(Original post by Chakede)
no probably the ones about slavery and female castigation, about inequality of gender, sexuality etand those about calling for war against unbelievers - amoung others.
oh and the subsequent bloody history of islam spreading from saudi to those other countries you refer being amoung the worst in human history

but apart form that...


not that it has anything to do with NZ attacks. the killer had an issue with immigration and people in general , not just islam and its history
Last edited by LegallyJasmine; 1 week ago
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Chakede
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(Original post by LegallyJasmine)
Read my previous post. Slavery?? You saying that proves you haven't researched this properly... Please do not confuse the Ridda/ apostasy wars that occurred after the death of Muhamed with the preachings of the religion itself.

But apart "form that", I do not think people who probably have googled about this from Wikipedia are in a better position than I am someone who has been taught the religion since a very early age and is in a Muslim community and family to tell me better about what I have been taught. Of course I am not claiming I am the reflection of every single Muslim in the world, but I am claiming that (if you check my other post) there are other things to be considered and I'm tired of this ignorance.

I know that's the case, wasn't claiming it necessarily was only about religion, I talked about history when I was refuting another point. Just put the part about his motives out there in case someone sidetracks the argument down that route.
don't be dumb pls - just becuase you want to hand pick some nice sounding verses and then make the claim all is good, doesn't mean everyone can use the same blinkered method. if we all turned a blind eye to things didn't want to face up to we would live in the same delusion of terrorists.

so islam is nothing to do with anything after mohammed? weren't all the hadiths compiled after his death? or even the quran itself?
I wasn't referring to the fitnas either (or even the constant wars mohammed fought with his neighbours through his lifetime) im talking about the inspiration that then grew Islamic empire outside of arabia to the countries you talk about



again don't be dumb, or naïve enough to think you know more than others here just because you were born as a muslim. you think youve been told all facts about islams history? or simply a 1 sided account. do you have any knowledge of how islam came to asia? about the first caliphates attempts to conquer the indian subcontinent, their butchering of afganis and the equivalent modern day Pakistanis?

youre right this is a t risk of sidetracking off the topic, but only because you chose the moment to make some bs assertion about islams 'perfection'
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LegallyJasmine
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...... Never have I once claimed that Islam was perfect. It itself not being oppressive to women is not synonymous with perfection. If you see me on other threads you'll see I'm usually the one challenging Muslims on some topics because of it being heavily part of my identity and background I know I am knowledgable about and I know the parts of it that shaky. The generalization that the religion itself at its core oppresses women is simply not one of those points I would agree with.

No, it has nothing to do with anything after Muhamed's death. We are taught that the hadiths are not reliable sources of information -- literally in our religion books at primary schools they explicitly state that some hadiths have been passed down through generations and that God advises that our main reference point is the Quran. I do not think I am naive or "dumb", I think I have a better-informed opinion on its teachings being taught it. It was and is a huge part of my identity, I have researched so many perspectives for years and my existential crises always revolved around reading around the topic more through all perspectives to attempt to be impartial and that led me to choose to believe that I do not think there is a fairy in the sky. If you again read my post it seems very ironic when you're calling me out on ignorance when you should know those barbaric wars: the apostasy/ Ridda wars happened thousands of years ago, and are not part of the religion but instead its history. If you want to sit here and talk about religions’ history I can bring up many points about colonialism and the injustices people carried out in the name of Christianity, but I'd be just ignorant to say that that is what Christianity is all about. Also, the Quran was memorised directly during the times of Muhamed and has only been written down directly after his death but never created new verses afterwards (if we claim that some people’s memories haven’t failed them) Many people memorised it because it was really something that was respected at the time to do and for religious reasons.

I never picked any verses? Idek what you were on about there. Please do not put words in my mouth then continue to challenge those words/ claims I've never mentioned to make your argument sound stronger.
(Original post by Chakede)
don't be dumb pls - just becuase you want to hand pick some nice sounding verses and then make the claim all is good, doesn't mean everyone can use the same blinkered method. if we all turned a blind eye to things didn't want to face up to we would live in the same delusion of terrorists.

so islam is nothing to do with anything after mohammed? weren't all the hadiths compiled after his death? or even the quran itself? again don't be dumb, or naïve enough to think you know more than others here just because you were born as a muslim. you think youve been told all facts about islams history? or simply a 1 sided account. do you have any knowledge of how islam came to asia? about the first caliphates attempts to conquer the indian subcontinent, their butchering of afganis and the equivalent modern day Pakistanis?

youre right this is a t risk of sidetracking off the topic, but only because you chose the moment to make some bs assertion about islams 'perfection'
Last edited by LegallyJasmine; 1 week ago
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Chakede
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(Original post by LegallyJasmine)
...... Never have I once claimed that Islam was perfect. It itself not being oppressive to women is not synonymous with perfection. If you see me on other threads you'll see I'm usually the one challenging Muslims on some topics because of it being heavily part of my identity and background I know I am knowledgable about and I know the parts of it that shaky. The generalization that the religion itself at its core oppresses women is simply not one of those points I would agree with.

No, it has nothing to do with anything after Muhamed's death. We are taught that the hadiths are not reliable sources of information -- literally in our religion books at primary schools they explicitly state that some hadiths have been passed down through generations and that God advises that our main reference point is the Quran. I do not think I am naive or "dumb", I think I have a better-informed opinion on its teachings being taught it. It was and is a huge part of my identity, I have researched so many perspectives for years and my existential crises always revolved around reading around the topic more through all perspectives to attempt to be impartial and that led me to choose to believe that I do not think there is a fairy in the sky. If you again read my post it seems very ironic when you're calling me out on ignorance when you should know those barbaric wars: the apostasy/ Ridda wars happened thousands of years ago, and are not part of the religion but instead its history. If you want to sit here and talk about religion's history I can bring up many points about colonialism and the injustices people carried out in the name of Christianity, but I'd be just ignorant to say that is what Christianity is all about. Also, the Quran was memorised directly after Muhamed and has only been written down after his death. Many people memorised it because it was really something that was respected at the time to do.

I never picked any verses? Idek what you were on about there. Please do not put words in my mouth then continue to challenge those words/ claims I've never mentioned to make your argument sound stronger.
over 70 % of the muslim world ARE taught that the hadiths are reliable sources of information, so you maybe in the fringe.and if you claim to be a Quaranist, then you would be missing the numerous elements of Islamic society that arnt reference in the quran.

I don't need to hand pick verses,anyone can seek that detail out, I was in reference to slaves of the right had posesses' ie sex slaves taken from non muslim lands , wife beating, conflict with the unbeliver, jews 'pagans' etc etc etc. No spiritual scripture would be as direct as this and those points that share resemblance with what far right terrorists say about race war etc. regardless im not getting into a philosophical debate, im addressing your intimations.



Pre mohammeds death, islams history was engulfed in war. after his death it also was ( though on a much wider scale) Islamic empire was inspired by islam, in the same way early western empire was inspired by Christianity. both faiths dictated its follwoers to go out and convert, to seize land and to kill where necessarry where their beliefs were not shared - None so relevant as again India, where initially the british involvement was purely a commercial one in the East India Company, but took a turn for the worse when missionaires demanded the right to go and convert the hindi sikh and buddhist populations. and that's exactly what both groups did. Afganistan has the largest and oldest buddhist state in history before Umar and later caliphates massacred most of them. no it doesn't identify the faith itself soley, buts its a major part of them and enshrined in scripture so no point playing the ignorance game. in fact its the reason both faiths clashed so much in the past as emphasise by the right wing.
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