Burton Bridge
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#1
https://youtu.be/QK3Ix0DhSs8

The establishment launch operation thought control.

Hate speech is unacceptable but I think there is a huge difference between this and open hate preeching/radicalism that is a real problem. It sounds to me like the police officers agree with the subjuct but are carring out order's.

There is no way we will put this back in the box. No brexit is the worst outcome, it will burn our democracy and the wrong people will benefit from it, they are the far right. If we get a Brexit then the far right will totally disappear as a political threat, remainer's want one positive from Brexit well there is one. Stopping the far right from gaining any influence.

I do worry about the future at the moment. I actually hope May's deal is accepted and we all can move on and make Britain safe and prosperous and hate free.
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ThomH97
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What did he actually post?

From the video with the cops saying he'd done nothing wrong but sending two of them round anyway is intimidation. You can't go around like that as a police officer and not expect your actions to not have any significance.
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Burton Bridge
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If I'm perfectly honest I don't know. By the video it sounds like he ranted something l Iike 'if the will of the people is denyed, then he would go and drag x MP out and, something'

At the end of the day it sounds to me like we are not allowed to be angry about not getting what we voted for.

For clairty in case any police monitor this, I will certainly not be dragging anyone out of Westminster, but I will be sacking my MP at the ballot box and I'll be protesting (peacefully) for others who betrayed the instructions of their constituents to do the same also.

I'm just hoping I won't have too but I seriously doubt it, its looking like we will never leave the EU.
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Jjj90
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
If I'm perfectly honest I don't know. By the video it sounds like he ranted something l Iike 'if the will of the people is denyed, then he would go and drag x MP out and, something'

At the end of the day it sounds to me like we are not allowed to be angry about not getting what we voted for.

For clairty in case any police monitor this, I will certainly not be dragging anyone out of Westminster, but I will be sacking my MP at the ballot box and I'll be protesting (peacefully) for others who betrayed the instructions of their constituents to do the same also.

I'm just hoping I won't have too but I seriously doubt it, its looking like we will never leave the EU.
No doubt you care so much about democracy that the thought of another democratic vote repulses you.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Jjj90)
No doubt you care so much about democracy that the thought of another democratic vote repulses you.
Referendums are rearly poistive anyway.

A second referendum would be undemocratic, the part that so many remainers are (in my opinion) deliberately missing/ignoring is since the June 2016 referendum, MPs have repeatedly voted in support of the result, in the name of implementing a decision taken by a majority of the electorate. Many seem to forget that between the original Brexit vote and today, we had a general election.

Conservative and Labour parties both committed themselves in their manifestos to implementing the referendum result. Only the Liberal Democrats could say that they opposed Brexit in an election that saw them pick up only a handful more seats than the catastrophic 2015 election. The same happened over the so-called “great repeal bill”, the legislation required to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act, when MPs rejected an amendment calling for a referendum on whether to support the deal or remain in the EU.


For the House of Commons to endorse a second referendum, it would have to repeal past Brexit legislation in a manner that flouts the position adopted by the main parties in the last general election. Were this to happen, it would tear up established relations between executive and legislature, pitting popular and parliamentary sovereignty against one another. Parliament would in effect be seeking, in a Brechtian fashion, to dissolve “the people” and put another in place that will vote differently in a second referendum.

So yes I feel I have reason to feel repulsed.

Oh by the way do you have anything on topic to add?
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Jjj90
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Referendums are rearly poistive anyway.

A second referendum would be undemocratic, the part that so many remainers are (in my opinion) deliberately missing/ignoring is since the June 2016 referendum, MPs have repeatedly voted in support of the result, in the name of implementing a decision taken by a majority of the electorate. Many seem to forget that between the original Brexit vote and today, we had a general election.

Conservative and Labour parties both committed themselves in their manifestos to implementing the referendum result. Only the Liberal Democrats could say that they opposed Brexit in an election that saw them pick up only a handful more seats than the catastrophic 2015 election. The same happened over the so-called “great repeal bill”, the legislation required to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act, when MPs rejected an amendment calling for a referendum on whether to support the deal or remain in the EU.


For the House of Commons to endorse a second referendum, it would have to repeal past Brexit legislation in a manner that flouts the position adopted by the main parties in the last general election. Were this to happen, it would tear up established relations between executive and legislature, pitting popular and parliamentary sovereignty against one another. Parliament would in effect be seeking, in a Brechtian fashion, to dissolve “the people” and put another in place that will vote differently in a second referendum.

So yes I feel I have reason to feel repulsed.

Oh by the way do you have anything on topic to add?
Some interesting points. Do you think another general election could change the landscape to a degree that a second referendum would be acceptable to you?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Referendums are rearly poistive anyway.

A second referendum would be undemocratic, the part that so many remainers are (in my opinion) deliberately missing/ignoring is since the June 2016 referendum, MPs have repeatedly voted in support of the result, in the name of implementing a decision taken by a majority of the electorate. Many seem to forget that between the original Brexit vote and today, we had a general election.

Conservative and Labour parties both committed themselves in their manifestos to implementing the referendum result. Only the Liberal Democrats could say that they opposed Brexit in an election that saw them pick up only a handful more seats than the catastrophic 2015 election. The same happened over the so-called “great repeal bill”, the legislation required to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act, when MPs rejected an amendment calling for a referendum on whether to support the deal or remain in the EU.


For the House of Commons to endorse a second referendum, it would have to repeal past Brexit legislation in a manner that flouts the position adopted by the main parties in the last general election. Were this to happen, it would tear up established relations between executive and legislature, pitting popular and parliamentary sovereignty against one another. Parliament would in effect be seeking, in a Brechtian fashion, to dissolve “the people” and put another in place that will vote differently in a second referendum.

So yes I feel I have reason to feel repulsed.

Oh by the way do you have anything on topic to add?
But these are all reasons for another referendum.

The purpose of another referendum is to move a deadlocked political discourse forward.

At present we effectively have the following groups in Parliament:-

1 MPs who for one reason or another do not accept the validity of the 2016 referendum

2 MPs (mostly but not exclusively Front Bench spokesmen) who accept the principal of collective responsibility and will support May's/Corbyn's position whatever it is

3 MPs who defer to the result of the 2016 referendum regarding of whether they think the decision sound, because it is the result of the referendum

4 MPs who want Brexit and fear its loss

5 Ulstermen who are unconcerned about Brexit but will not countenance a way forward that attacks their core Unionism

6 Committed Brexiteers for whom the referendum is political windowdressing

At present political discourse is limited to shouting at group 1 with no noticeable effect, bribing group 5 with so far no no noticeable effect and scaring the members of group 6 into joining group 4 which has had some modest success.

The level of movement has been insufficient to resolve this crisis.

What a second referendum potentially does is bring groups 1 and 3 into play and possibly cause leadership changes effecting group 2.
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paul514
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
https://youtu.be/QK3Ix0DhSs8

The establishment launch operation thought control.

Hate speech is unacceptable but I think there is a huge difference between this and open hate preeching/radicalism that is a real problem. It sounds to me like the police officers agree with the subjuct but are carring out order's.

There is no way we will put this back in the box. No brexit is the worst outcome, it will burn our democracy and the wrong people will benefit from it, they are the far right. If we get a Brexit then the far right will totally disappear as a political threat, remainer's want one positive from Brexit well there is one. Stopping the far right from gaining any influence.

I do worry about the future at the moment. I actually hope May's deal is accepted and we all can move on and make Britain safe and prosperous and hate free.
This has been going on for a few years....

They basically knock on your door and say oi mate you got a licence to say what you like on the internet? We have come round to check on your thoughts.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Jjj90)
Some interesting points. Do you think another general election could change the landscape to a degree that a second referendum would be acceptable to you?
We first need to deliver what parliament has promised via the clear mandate from the electorate via an exit agreement.

From here we need to put the question back to the people of who do you want negotiating our future deal with Europe and what type of country do you want. That would not break our democracy, it would strip power away from the far right and would provide business with the certainty it need ms to know the extreme ends of Brexit (no deal, no brexit) is not going to happen.
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username4454836
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(Original post by Jjj90)
Some interesting points. Do you think another general election could change the landscape to a degree that a second referendum would be acceptable to you?
Second referendums are never acceptable, we don't have second general elections because some people didn't like the result of the first one.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
But these are all reasons for another referendum.

The purpose of another referendum is to move a deadlocked political discourse forward.

At present we effectively have the following groups in Parliament:-

1 MPs who for one reason or another do not accept the validity of the 2016 referendum

2 MPs (mostly but not exclusively Front Bench spokesmen) who accept the principal of collective responsibility and will support May's/Corbyn's position whatever it is

3 MPs who defer to the result of the 2016 referendum regarding of whether they think the decision sound, because it is the result of the referendum

4 MPs who want Brexit and fear its loss

5 Ulstermen who are unconcerned about Brexit but will not countenance a way forward that attacks their core Unionism

6 Committed Brexiteers for whom the referendum is political windowdressing

At present political discourse is limited to shouting at group 1 with no noticeable effect, bribing group 5 with so far no no noticeable effect and scaring the members of group 6 into joining group 4 which has had some modest success.

The level of movement has been insufficient to resolve this crisis.

What a second referendum potentially does is bring groups 1 and 3 into play and possibly cause leadership changes effecting group 2.
My intention with this thread was not to make another second referendum thread but you make a good point and fundamentally we both want the same thing.

Second referendum won't give you what you want it to, you are right that not everybody that wants second referendum wants to stop Brexit. Personally I think the majority do and from here lies the problem, not only do we have the problem of brexiteers having all the ace cards of propaganda, Britain Loves an underdog thats the British culture they will peddle the establishment crushing the poor, keeping people small and deliver a message of hope to people who don't have any hope.

The result will likely be 53% leave 47 remain, do you think the remainers will give up or pick fault with any thing the leave campaign mk2 did and sabotage round two as they have before?

Let's look at what I think is unlikely but for balance 53% remain 47% leave, do you think the leavers will give up or pick fault with any thing remain did and more worrying in my head is the far right tapping into the unavoidable political backlash that would happen in this scenario, history teaches us this is the.most likely outcome.

What a second referendum potentially does is bring create a wider division in groups 1 and 3 into play and makes life harder for group 2 and longer term make group 2 more likely to be extreme.

Referendums rarely are the way forward
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Decahedron)
Second referendums are never acceptable, we don't have second general elections because some people didn't like the result of the first one.
Before the results of the first has happened, can you imagine if Labour stayed in power in 2010, MPs sacked by the electorate stayed in their seats and refused to honour the vote that just happened.

Referendums are incomparable to General elections or local ones for that matter either. Referenda does not work and should never be used, not in the first place either.
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DerangedDRD
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How old are you?
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DerangedDRD)
How old are you?
Why?
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DerangedDRD
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Why?
does the number ends with *teen?
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DerangedDRD)
does the number ends with *teen?
No!

So why don't you try to debate the facts or you're interpretation of the facts instead of trying to devalue my opinion?

Whats you're opinion on what I've said.
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DerangedDRD
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
OK. . Well what's you're opinion on my quote of the random poster from your neighborhood?





A child would want to live in a Britain safe and prosperous and hate free, so what?
Hate-free isn't really a thing, you are just banning some words instead o dealing with the reasoning behind them, but those people will still think the same... meaningless term. Also, skipping the most important thing, that offense is taken not given.

How can Brexit or Brexit make Britain saver? Do you understand that NATO and EU are separate elements?
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DerangedDRD)
Hate-free isn't really a thing, you are just banning some words instead o dealing with the reasoning behind them, but those people will still think the same... meaningless term. Also, skipping the most important thing, that offense is taken not given.

How can Brexit or Brexit make Britain saver? Do you understand that NATO and EU are separate elements?
Sorry but what are you doing is taking a small section of what I said and removing the context of how I said it. I'm not banning anything on the contrary I'm saying free speech should be encouraged, as long as it doesn't encite hate.

You seem to not be understanding what I'm saying about the gifting the far right support, If the government cancels Brexit, it will give the perception of a betrayal of democracy to many and will re-ignite UKIP as a party that is both alt-right and indirectly give those hostile to people from other cultures mass popular support. UKIP could end up as a party with far more members and become as hardline as the BNP was. In contrast, a hard Brexit will scupper UKIP and render the party largely redundant. Nothing to do with Nato/EU relations. I don't know how you misinterpreted my post to come to the conclusion I thought anything of the sort?
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Justvisited
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
its looking like we will never leave the EU.
Feeling more optimistic now?
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Burton Bridge
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#20
(Original post by Justvisited)
Feeling more optimistic now?
Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread.

Of course the answer is yes, you have to realise when this thread was active the political landscape was completely different. A close relationship with the EU was almost unavoidable. The public rejected the tories in 2017 gave them a mandate for a soft Brexit, remainers had the numbers in the lords and commons to create a permanent BINO, possibly could of made a case for rejoin in a 3/4 years with public support if they had used intelligence they claim to posses. But at the time if weitung that quote I was certain they could of kept us in the CU,SM,EU Law and CFP, which means we would of left nothing bar the negotiation tables in Brussels, but they went for 100% on the result on 48% of the vote. They genuinely believed leave voters were so stupid and unaware and genuinely thought moderate voters shared their distain for leave voters. They really over rated their intelligence and awareness, they blew it for every single moderate person in the country.

So yes, I'm more confident now but I'm only pleased
Not too worry about democracy and the rise of the political extremities that would of rose out of the burning ashes of democracy. I hoped May's deal was accepted and could all could all move forward and make Britain safe and prosperous and hate free. I am a moderate person and saw that as a compromise but remainer parliamentarians blew it, they couldn't compromise.

They blew it for every moderate person in the country.
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