Should we have a Second Referendum? Watch

Quady
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Hiphophup)
No that does not justify another referendum, circumstance has not changed since the first referendum we are still facing the same EU.

You cannot compare a Brexit referendum and a general election... We don't need another referendum, having another referendum would be undemocratic because it rules out what the electorate have already voted for. This new referendum would not be peoples true opinions it would be people trying to end the constant bickering in parliament. We need general elections otherwise we would be living in a dictatorship.
How would it rule out what the electorate has already voted for?
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spotify95
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#62
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I've said this before on many fora and I'll say it again (likely not the last time though ); we've voted as a country to leave the EU a couple of years ago so we should do what the majority voted for, which is to leave. No 2nd referendum as it then removes the trust of the Government.
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Quady
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Referendums are not comparable with General Elections.

May I ask if you have read May's deal?
Why not?

I've read sections of it, can't say I've read all the pages. Why do you ask?
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Quady
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#64
(Original post by spotify95)
I've said this before on many fora and I'll say it again (likely not the last time though ); we've voted as a country to leave the EU a couple of years ago so we should do what the majority voted for, which is to leave. No 2nd referendum as it then removes the trust of the Government.
Removes trust in a Government the majority didn't vote for, with a PM who wasn't in place when the referendum took place, propped up by buying votes and yet still loses by historically unprecedented margins?

It'd remove trust in that Government?
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spotify95
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(Original post by Quady)
Removes trust in a Government the majority didn't vote for, with a PM who wasn't in place when the referendum took place, propped up by buying votes and yet still loses by historically unprecedented margins?

It'd remove trust in that Government?
More like the people would trust the Government even less if they decided to back down on what the UK voted for (although I agree that the government wasn't a majority, we needed the DUP to make up the seats - yet before the second general election, we did have enough seats on our own).
Cameron should have either not done the EU referendum at all, or stuck with it no matter what the result, rather than resign and leave us in a mess.
And I'm not getting involved in further politics because it all gets messy rather quickly
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geoking
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#66
(Original post by Doones)
1979
So? How things were done 40 years ago doesn't mean it should be done the same way.


(Original post by RogerOxon)
It isn't for a censure motion - that requires a super-majority. Is that 50% of those eligible to vote, or those that voted? I could call that arbitrary.

The fact is that opinions change, otherwise we'd never have any elections. Any long process needs to take that into account, especially when detail become clear along the way. No one knew what sort of a deal would be negotiated.
There's nothing arbitrary in ruling that those who decided not to vote, do not care either way and therefore can be excluded from the decision. This is how all general elections the world over are handled.

The fact is the UK democratically voted to leave the EU. Delivering anything less, or asking them to vote again, which in reality is actually asking them to align with MPs, is clearly stating that the UK is not a democracy, but an aristocracy.
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geoking
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#67
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(Original post by Quady)
Removes trust in a Government the majority didn't vote for, with a PM who wasn't in place when the referendum took place, propped up by buying votes and yet still loses by historically unprecedented margins?

It'd remove trust in that Government?
The reality is if the UK doesnt leave the EU, then Parliament is saying that democracy in the UK counts for nothing. The people said "jump" and the MPs said "no, i'd prefer to walk/run/cartwheel".
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MysticImogen
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#68
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#68
(Original post by blossomblue)
The Brexit Referendum of 2016 declared that the British public voted to leave the European Union.
The vote declared that 51.9% of the public wanted to leave and 48.1% wanted to remain.
There are recent murmurings in parliament and in Britain of a potential second referendum.

What is your opinion?
Would it be anti-democratic?
What are the pros and cons of a second referendum?
Should there even be a second referendum?
YESSSS! Lets exit breixt! :virtual_bar:
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nutz99
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#69
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
That wasn't the point.


If you voted Labour 20 years ago, are you ever allowed to change that opinion? You get to change your mind every few years on that.

What about new voters that never got to vote on Brexit? When do they get heard?
What about people that didn't appreciate many of the issues, e.g. the Irish border?
But then that is not the same vote as you had previously. We do not keep voting on the same thing ever in an election as the options change. We vote on different people, different parties and different manifestos.

The idea of a referendum is that it is a one off. Whatever you decided that day you can't change your mind. Whoever qualified to vote on that referendum that is it. There is no going back because someone was too young to vote!
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by nutz99)
The idea of a referendum is that it is a one off. Whatever you decided that day you can't change your mind. Whoever qualified to vote on that referendum that is it. There is no going back because someone was too young to vote!
By that logic we should respect the 1975 one to stay in the EU.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by geoking)
So? How things were done 40 years ago doesn't mean it should be done the same way.
Where do you draw the line? A decision from 999 days ago?

The fact is the UK democratically voted to leave the EU. Delivering anything less, or asking them to vote again, which in reality is actually asking them to align with MPs, is clearly stating that the UK is not a democracy, but an aristocracy.
The issue that Parliament has is that, whilst voting to leave the EU, they cannot agree on how. The referendum didn't address that either - it's vital detail that the public have not had a say on, and MPs cannot agree on. How do you propose to address this?
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Quady
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#72
(Original post by geoking)
The reality is if the UK doesnt leave the EU, then Parliament is saying that democracy in the UK counts for nothing. The people said "jump" and the MPs said "no, i'd prefer to walk/run/cartwheel".
Manchester has a mayor doesn't it?
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Cheesus69
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Doones)
Perhaps, except 50% of the electorate didn't vote to Leave. It was just 37%.

And see this previous referendum for precedent:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_S...ion_referendum

It set a 40% of the electorate requirement (not even 50%). On that basis the 2016 referendum would also have failed.
thats assuming that everyone who didnt vote would have voted remain, for all anyone knows they could all have been brexiteers
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Quady
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(Original post by Cheesus69)
thats assuming that everyone who didnt vote would have voted remain, for all anyone knows they could all have been brexiteers
That assumed everyone who didn't vote would have voted to reject a Scottish parliament, for all anyone knows they could have been pro-devo.
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geoking
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(Original post by Quady)
Manchester has a mayor doesn't it?
lolwut
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geoking
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#76
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Where do you draw the line? A decision from 999 days ago?


The issue that Parliament has is that, whilst voting to leave the EU, they cannot agree on how. The referendum didn't address that either - it's vital detail that the public have not had a say on, and MPs cannot agree on. How do you propose to address this?
Don't have a line and run government like a business that knows what it's doing. Just because something was done in a certain way doesn't mean it should be repeated for the sake of it. Reassess the best way, and go with the outcome. If we stuck to the ways of the past without scrutiny, we'd still be homophobic, sexist racists living in caes.

The reality is a lot of MPs simply don't want to leave the EU and believe they're doing the right thing by rejecting all options. Honestly, the UK should have planned for a hard Brexit from the start, but until all aspects of the government are reworked, then the UK will remain being ran by drunks, snobs and idiots.

What's the solution? Hard Brexit. There's no way in hell Parliament will ever agree on anything when they are more divided now than in the last 50 years.
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nutz99
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#77
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
By that logic we should respect the 1975 one to stay in the EU.
Logic also tells you it is a different animal now and when we joined it was the EEC. There is no comparison between the trading market we joined to the super power that it thinks it is today.
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Doones
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#78
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(Original post by Cheesus69)
thats assuming that everyone who didnt vote would have voted remain, for all anyone knows they could all have been brexiteers
No it doesn't. See the already referenced 1979 Devo Referendum that set a 40% electorate requirement.

And before anyone else says but that was 40 years ago.. other countries currently have such a 40% requirement in place for referendums including Denmark.

(Original post by nutz99)
Logic also tells you it is a different animal now and when we joined it was the EEC. There is no comparison between the trading market we joined to the super power that it thinks it is today.
And has the deal on offer changed in the past 999 days? Nobody defined what Leave meant for the original referendum, TM's WA does now. Therefore the electorate should vote on it.

And really this is the only sensible outcome from TM's speech tonight... she was appealing to the people to support her and doesn't trust parliament to do it. The next step must be putting the WA to the People's Vote.
Last edited by Doones; 1 month ago
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RogerOxon
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#79
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#79
(Original post by nutz99)
Logic also tells you it is a different animal now and when we joined it was the EEC. There is no comparison between the trading market we joined to the super power that it thinks it is today.
And there's no comparison between the non-existent "Leave" deal that we had during the vote and the one that we have now ..

It's unfortunate that those that want a "no deal" Brexit can't have it without severely screwing the rest of the UK.
Last edited by RogerOxon; 1 month ago
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Doones
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Just to note the #RevokeArticle50 petition now has over 300,000 signatures - nearly all in the past few hours.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
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