Should we have a Second Referendum? Watch

tazarooni89
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#81
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I don’t think there should be a “second referendum” in the sense of simply repeating the question asked in the first one. The British people already expressed a response to that question, and it would make a farce of democracy if you could simply re-run a vote just because you didn’t like the original outcome.


However, the deadlock in parliament is no longer simply a question of “Leave or Remain”. Now that a particular withdrawal agreement has been negotiated, it is a question of “Deal or No Deal (or neither)”.

For that question, I think we do need a referendum. Without it, parliament will either impose Theresa May’s Deal upon us, or lead us into a no-Deal Brexit, or extend/revoke Article 50 without the public having given their explicit consent to any of these outcomes.

Without a referendum, MP’s own career aspirations, party politics, faction rivalry and parliamentary arithmetic will continue to be prioritised over the actual public interest, and this will be reflected in the final decision on Brexit.


As a side note:

Whilst it is true that most Remainers want a referendum (as that is the only chance for them to legitimately get their way), it is not true that a referendum would automatically lead to a “Remain” outcome, as people so often apparently assume. It would simply lead to whichever result is favoured by the majority of the British people at the time.

Furthermore, in order to be impartial regarding the decision as to whether or not we have a referendum, we should not assume a particular result from beforehand. We must simply determine whether or not a referendum is in the public interest. In this case, I believe it is.
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geoking
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(Original post by Doones)
Just to note the #RevokeArticle50 petition now has over 300,000 signatures - nearly all in the past few hours.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
That is truly hilarious. The decision to leave the EU was made democratically, yet here are some whiners wanting to undo said vote with a petition to the government? The irony is palpable...
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
The fact is that opinions change, otherwise we'd never have any elections. Any long process needs to take that into account, especially when detail become clear along the way. No one knew what sort of a deal would be negotiated.
Watch this

https://youtu.be/gUsKWsPcRXE

Referendums are not comparable to general/local elections
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Doones
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(Original post by geoking)
That is truly hilarious. The decision to leave the EU was made democratically, yet here are some whiners wanting to undo said vote with a petition to the government? The irony is palpable...
Petitions are part of the democratic process.

Remember #TakeBackControl ? :eyeball:

Oh, and 600,000 signatures now...

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RogerOxon
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(Original post by geoking)
That is truly hilarious. The decision to leave the EU was made democratically, yet here are some whiners wanting to undo said vote with a petition to the government? The irony is palpable...
It is foolish not to reassess your opinion in the light of new information.

Parliament appears incapable of getting a meaningful decision, although they did reject "no deal". Without a referendum, that appears to be the most likely outcome, against the democratic will of Parliament.
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S1elyak1
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Is it antidemocratic? Yes. Should we have another one anyway? Also yes. Theresa May keeps saying that it would be undemocratic to hold another referendum as the public has already spoken but isn't she the one who keeps trying to get MP's to vote on her deal when very little has been changed?

As a country we now know a lot more about Brexit and what it entails than we did before. If we were to have a second referendum it should offer three choices, ''remain'' ''leave with PM's deal'' and ''leave without a deal''
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MWills99
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How can you justify having another referendum on Brexit, when the actions of the first one haven't been completed yet. We have to leave first before we consider having another one.

However, if the question of a hypothetical second referendum was "Deal or No Deal", then I'd be in favour of that. Either way remain should not be an option
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by geoking)
That is truly hilarious. The decision to leave the EU was made democratically, yet here are some whiners wanting to undo said vote with a petition to the government? The irony is palpable...
Some have changed their opinion over nearly 3 years of seeing the detail of the issues that Brexit raises. You may get the "no deal" that you crave.

Democracy means that you can change your mind. However, we now have concrete options, not false claims. A vote is needed to choose, as Parliament has failed to.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by MWills99)
How can you justify having another referendum on Brexit, when the actions of the first one haven't been completed yet. We have to leave first before we consider having another one.

However, if the question of a hypothetical second referendum was "Deal or No Deal", then I'd be in favour of that. Either way remain should not be an option
By that logic, the 1975 one shouldn't have allowed Brexit to be an option.

The fact is that a decision is needed on deal / no deal. Parliament said no to no deal and the one deal available. Is it not anti-democratic to ignore that vote?
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Medrat
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
However, we now have concrete options, not false claims.

How can you be sure that the concrete options of today are not the false claims of tomorrow?
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Medrat)
How can you be sure that the concrete options of today are not the false claims of tomorrow?
Logic..

The current deal is a written document, not a claim with no evidence.
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Quady
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(Original post by geoking)
lolwut
Parliament gave Manchester and 10 other cities referendums on whether they wanted directly elected mayors in 2012.

Manchester and another eight voted no. Two voted yes.

Parliament made them have an elected mayor anyway.

So in the last decade Parliament has acted to do what a public referendum said no to.
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Burton Bridge
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#93
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Some have changed their opinion over nearly 3 years of seeing the detail of the issues that Brexit raises. You may get the "no deal" that you crave.

Democracy means that you can change your mind. However, we now have concrete options, not false claims. A vote is needed to choose, as Parliament has failed to.
You don't and can't know this but we do know what we was told and we were not told what you say.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
You don't and can't know this but we do know what we was told and we were not told what you say.
What can't I know?
What were you told?
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Medrat
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Logic..

The current deal is a written document, not a claim with no evidence.
How do you know that the 'no evidence claims' were the basis for people's voting decisions? For all you know, people ignored these and voted on the basis of other reasons.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Medrat)
How do you know that the 'no evidence claims' were the basis for people's voting decisions?
I didn't say that they were. However, given just how many there were, I expect that some did base their vote on false claims. I don't know how many.

The key point is that we have a concrete deal now, which we didn't when the Brexit vote took place. It is also almost 3 years later, with many of the complexities of Brexit better understood than they could have been back at the vote. Parliament has failed to select the Brexit path, so someone should break the deadlock. Given that it was triggered by a referendum (I don't think that it was a suitable question though), a referendum to select one of the concrete options seems appropriate. I would also include the "Cancel Brexit" option - two high-level options (Brexit, no Brexit), and a sub-choice for Brexit (no deal and the one available deal).
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Burton Bridge
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We was all told the same things repeatedly by the most senior and politician in our country at the time.

https://youtu.be/gUsKWsPcRXE

You cannot know the voting preferences of those who have changed their minds, I have only spoken to 9ne person who has changed leave to remain but several remain to leave. Polls are inaccurate and have become very americanized over the past few years. Many including myself feel they are used to influence public opinion as much as measure it
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999tigger
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If we did have one, then people would be much more informed about its importance and implications than they were in the first one.

Unfortunately we will not have one.

If we do drop into recession, then you know who to go similarly if we have loads of new trade deals and the economy booms, then they should have the credit.

I wouldnt rely on Trump though. he is just happy it damages one of his main competitors.
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Medrat
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(Original post by 999tigger)
If we did have one, then people would be much more informed about its importance and implications than they were in the first one.

Unfortunately we will not have one.

If we do drop into recession, then you know who to go similarly if we have loads of new trade deals and the economy booms, then they should have the credit.

I wouldnt rely on Trump though. he is just happy it damages one of his main competitors.
I agree. There won't be another referendum. Certain events (Brexit, Trump) have pulled the rug from under the feet of people who thought they could predict voting behavior. Nobody will dare risk another one. Also, many people have realised that the so-called 'facts' today are no more concrete or genuine than 'facts' two years ago (we all know that the vast majority of info pumped out is lies, biased and one-sided). Nobody will risk another referendum for this reason as well.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Medrat)
I agree. There won't be another referendum. Certain events (Brexit, Trump) have pulled the rug from under the feet of people who thought they could predict voting behavior. Nobody will dare risk another one. Also, many people have realised that the so-called 'facts' today are no more concrete or genuine than 'facts' two years ago (we all know that the vast majority of info pumped out is lies, biased and one-sided). Nobody will risk another referendum for this reason as well.
I dont think we can as we are British and even though the first one was a mess we will soldier on. I feel most people have had enough and just want it over with. Im amazed that the people who have decided are supposedly the best the country can come up with.
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