Home Office quotes Bible verses to prove Christianity is not a religion of peace Watch

Wired_1800
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#81
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Yes.
Metaphorically speaking catholic doctrine is one very tall tree; with deep roots, a lot of branches and the potential to yield both good & bad apples.
One unique tree in a forest filled with many beautiful trees of different ages, sizes and types.
The principal catholic doctrines most people seem to focus on revolve around the four marks of the church (one, holy, catholic, apostolic), the salvation debate, sanctity of life, papal infallibility and vatican ii.
Most of those doctrines accommodate a variety of approaches ranging from liberal to traditionalist.

The fundamentalist approach doesn't really fit because of the conflict between a fundamentalist's defence of papal infallibility yet rejection of vatican ii reforms.
That is a big issue that the sedevacantist faction tend to crumble over, their response is to excommunicate anyone who disagrees with them including the pope and claim that the catholic church has been taken over by heretics since 1958.
Even traditionalists that reject vatican ii have similar problems although they do acknowledge the legitimacy of all modern popes and chose to remain in communion with the catholic church whilst simultaneous snarling abuse at "modernism".

I accept vatican ii and believe in interfaith marriage.
I'm not into the conversion agenda.
Or the accusations of "heretic"/ "false religion" so often leveled at other people with alternative viewpoints by medieval minded religious hardliners who view religious pluralism with absolute horror.
My father is a loud militant atheist; he bellows about all religion being "an evil cult that only exists to scam money and control the gullible"- anything can set him off.
Telling her family she was going to marry an atheist got my mother almost beaten to death, then disowned and disinherited.
My mother prefer political activism to religion but still believes in the abstinence movement until marriage and that abortion is wrong under all circumstances.
The catholic church does allow lifesaving abortion.

No.
I don't think that there has ever been a single organized religion in human history that was perfect, complete and all encompassing.
Not in theology, practice and structural hierarchy.
There never will be.
Too much sectarianism/xenophobia, violence, fanaticism, dishonest game playing and a lust for power amongst human beings.
Secular humanism, philosophy and history can add amazing layer of perspective when it comes to understanding religious theology and its evolution over the ages.

Almost every mainstream religion has positive elements and their faith leaders/religious scriptures offer some good advice.
Sikhism's teachings about seva which inspires many sikhs to provide free food at their gurdwara's to anyone who wants it every day.
Hinduism's respect for the natural world, wonderful celebrations and food hospitality.
Islam's meat charity and fourteen hundred year old annual welfare levy to financially provide for those most vulnerable.
Scientology's narconon drug rehabilitation program provided free of charge to drug addicts from all backgrounds.
The Amish attitude of victims offering unconditional forgiveness to the most vicious of offenders, even parents granting forgiveness to the remorseless murderers of their young children.
Wow, this post was interesting about how your mother was nearly killed for marrying outside her faith. Is your mother’s family English and your father Irish or vice versa? I am wondering whether there were other factors or deeper issues that would have caused such backlash.

It seems the Catholic Church has moved way too forward and probably gone beyond the original doctrine of the Church. I hear people argue that religion should adapt to 21st Century, but I find it a bit silly. Faith should be faith whether it is in 7th century, 15th Century or 22nd Century.

I agree with your points about human desire for power. I think it is the reason why some religious leaders seem to foster differences because it protects their position.

Is the Catholic church matrilineal like in Judaism or patrilineal? Is being Catholic automatically passed on from Mother to Child?
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Tootles
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#82
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#82
(Original post by AJ126)
In the new testament.God says slaves should obey their masters.You can deduce from this that he has no problem with slavery.
He also says women should be silent and accept a man's authority.
In the NT the Greek word often translated as "slave" (doulos) refers to a bondsman. You own them but you pay them and treat them with respect, like the Army (in theory). Slavery wasn't the abusive thing it became later. They were often either working to pay off a debt or were captured foreigners from foreign countries, and were treated like people, not livestock.

(Original post by Leviathan1611)
He is alive, and He's not/and won't be spinning in a grave. but rather, He is currently seated at the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
It's called "humour", you doughnut.

(Original post by londonmyst)
Yes.
Metaphorically speaking catholic doctrine is one very tall tree; with deep roots, a lot of branches and the potential to yield both good & bad apples.
One unique tree in a forest filled with many beautiful trees of different ages, sizes and types.
The principal catholic doctrines most people seem to focus on revolve around the four marks of the church (one, holy, catholic, apostolic), the salvation debate, sanctity of life, papal infallibility and vatican ii.
Most of those doctrines accommodate a variety of approaches ranging from liberal to traditionalist.

The fundamentalist approach doesn't really fit because of the conflict between a fundamentalist's defence of papal infallibility yet rejection of vatican ii reforms.
That is a big issue that the sedevacantist faction tend to crumble over, their response is to excommunicate anyone who disagrees with them including the pope and claim that the catholic church has been taken over by heretics since 1958.
Even traditionalists that reject vatican ii have similar problems although they do acknowledge the legitimacy of all modern popes and chose to remain in communion with the catholic church whilst simultaneous snarling abuse at "modernism".

I accept vatican ii and believe in interfaith marriage.
I'm not into the conversion agenda.
Or the accusations of "heretic"/ "false religion" so often leveled at other people with alternative viewpoints by medieval minded religious hardliners who view religious pluralism with absolute horror.
My father is a loud militant atheist; he bellows about all religion being "an evil cult that only exists to scam money and control the gullible"- anything can set him off.
Telling her family she was going to marry an atheist got my mother almost beaten to death, then disowned and disinherited.
My mother prefer political activism to religion but still believes in the abstinence movement until marriage and that abortion is wrong under all circumstances.
The catholic church does allow lifesaving abortion.

No.
I don't think that there has ever been a single organized religion in human history that was perfect, complete and all encompassing.
Not in theology, practice and structural hierarchy.
There never will be.
Too much sectarianism/xenophobia, violence, fanaticism, dishonest game playing and a lust for power amongst human beings.
Secular humanism, philosophy and history can add amazing layer of perspective when it comes to understanding religious theology and its evolution over the ages.

Almost every mainstream religion has positive elements and their faith leaders/religious scriptures offer some good advice.
Sikhism's teachings about seva which inspires many sikhs to provide free food at their gurdwara's to anyone who wants it every day.
Hinduism's respect for the natural world, wonderful celebrations and food hospitality.
Islam's meat charity and fourteen hundred year old annual welfare levy to financially provide for those most vulnerable.
Scientology's narconon drug rehabilitation program provided free of charge to drug addicts from all backgrounds.
The Amish attitude of victims offering unconditional forgiveness to the most vicious of offenders, even parents granting forgiveness to the remorseless murderers of their young children.
I thought unquestioningly accepting all dogma and ex cathedra pronouncements by the Pope was an absolute requirement of all Roman Catholics? Especially dogma - iirc rejecting any dogma is instant excommunication.

I dunno, you'd make a good Anglican. Sadly we can believe what we want. While I'm mostly Orthodox there are Anglicans who think none of it matters and you just go sing silly songs once a week.

NB I am not inviting you to be an Anglican - it's just how you come across, that your outlook is compatible with the CofE.

(Original post by Wired_1800)
Is the Catholic church matrilineal like in Judaism or patrilineal? Is being Catholic automatically passed on from Mother to Child?
It's neither. You become a member of the Church on baptism. Nobody is born into the Church, they are born again into it.
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z-hog
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All this because a new trafficking route has been opened up for people in Iran to come over, they fly over to Serbia and then the trafficking gangs carry them through every border up to the Channel and ship them over. In exchange for good money, it must be pointed out. Just another route, to add to all existing ones. Thy sometimes call 999 on the crossing, to be picked up.

Many Iranians claim to have converted to Christianity because that is an easy way to make an asylum claim, like claiming to be gay. In fact, most of them would probably be glad to just arrive and go look for work and look after themselves but we insist: they must first make up a story that a lawyer will be paid for taking as far down the farcical system as possible. If the whole pantomime succeeds, then they can stay. A small fortune, all this costs.

Lawyers and people-traffickers, they earn well out of all this. Maybe the law-makers have shares in the trade.
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londonmyst
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#84
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Wow, this post was interesting about how your mother was nearly killed for marrying outside her faith. Is your mother’s family English and your father Irish or vice versa? I am wondering whether there were other factors or deeper issues that would have caused such backlash.

It seems the Catholic Church has moved way too forward and probably gone beyond the original doctrine of the Church. I hear people argue that religion should adapt to 21st Century, but I find it a bit silly. Faith should be faith whether it is in 7th century, 15th Century or 22nd Century.

I agree with your points about human desire for power. I think it is the reason why some religious leaders seem to foster differences because it protects their position.

Is the Catholic church matrilineal like in Judaism or patrilineal? Is being Catholic automatically passed on from Mother to Child?
No, although both of my parents are hardcore supporters of Irish republicanism.
My parents were the students of militant era, they remain revolutionary trade union socialists .
My maternal grandmother has ancestors from scotland, wales, canada and new zealand.
Her husband was english with some distant french ancestry and proudly claimed descent from members of the guy fawkes gang led by catesby.

Ultra traditionalist catholics often have a very insular mentality and prefer arranged marriages with relatives, although my mother's parents met by chance.
My mother had been engaged three times by the age of 22, two of them to men she had never met.
My father was engagement no 4- he didn't want to get married but my mother wouldn't agree to live with him without marriage.
My mother's father was a brutal authoritarian who used his religion the same way that he used his belt and his vile mother set the example he followed 95% of the time.
The only things that she disliked were his choice of wife, his conversion agenda and the fact that his violent rages escalated over the decades until they became impossible for her to control.

No.
Catholicism isn't based on ancestral bloodlines.
Although catholics who marry non-catholics in religious ceremonies do have to promise that all children they have will be brought up as catholics.
My parents didn't get married in church.

There is a lot of internal debate about what constitutes being catholic- baptism, confirmation, religious upbringing, active religious participation or just personal preference.
In northern ireland there are a lot of people who say that they are atheist catholics, defining being catholic by ancestral religious affiliations several generations ago instead of their own personal religious beliefs.
I have met people in northern ireland who call themselves atheist protestants too.
But all the people I know who do this seem to have a staunchly anti-theist agenda plus hostility to organised religion, along with a preference for separatist identity politics based upon other people's religious choices and the combination gives me a negative vibe.
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GetGradenines
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#85
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
I think you could quite easily show some statistics that show that Christianity is far more of a "religion of peace" than certain other ones.
KKK: hold my bear
New Zealand white terrorist seconds your reply
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Wired_1800
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#86
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(Original post by londonmyst)
No, although both of my parents are hardcore supporters of Irish republicanism.
My parents were the students of militant era, they remain revolutionary trade union socialists .
My maternal grandmother has ancestors from scotland, wales, canada and new zealand.
Her husband was english with some distant french ancestry and proudly claimed descent from members of the guy fawkes gang led by catesby.

Ultra traditionalist catholics often have a very insular mentality and prefer arranged marriages with relatives, although my mother's parents met by chance.
My mother had been engaged three times by the age of 22, two of them to men she had never met.
My father was engagement no 4- he didn't want to get married but my mother wouldn't agree to live with him without marriage.
My mother's father was a brutal authoritarian who used his religion the same way that he used his belt and his vile mother set the example he followed 95% of the time.
The only things that she disliked were his choice of wife, his conversion agenda and the fact that his violent rages escalated over the decades until they became impossible for her to control.

No.
Catholicism isn't based on ancestral bloodlines.
Although catholics who marry non-catholics in religious ceremonies do have to promise that all children they have will be brought up as catholics.
My parents didn't get married in church.

There is a lot of internal debate about what constitutes being catholic- baptism, confirmation, religious upbringing, active religious participation or just personal preference.
In northern ireland there are a lot of people who say that they are atheist catholics, defining being catholic by ancestral religious affiliations several generations ago instead of their own personal religious beliefs.
I have met people in northern ireland who call themselves atheist protestants too.
But all the people I know who do this seem to have a staunchly anti-theist agenda plus hostility to organised religion, along with a preference for separatist identity politics based upon other people's religious choices and the combination gives me a negative vibe.
Did you directly experience the environment that your parents grew up in with the tension that persisted? Your family appear to be very strong-willed people with views and approaches that would raise eyebrows today. I do understand that it was a different time, but still.

I dont know if I missed it, but are you Catholic and would you raise your family in the Catholic religion? If no, why not. If yes, why?

Do you think that we should do away with all religion? There is an argument that says religion helps humans to be sane. Without religion, there would be more chaos because people would have not reason to act right. Do you agree?

How has your family experience evolved since the time of your mother’s father?
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(Original post by JaJa18796)
Just out of curiosity what is it that made you hate this religion so much?
Just read the Bible with an open mind and you will see for yourself. Ponder on why such cruelty and arbitrary barbaric justice is necessary and ask yourself whether you want to be associated with such a sick deity. A truly all-loving and all-powerful god would be able to find another way.
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londonmyst
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(Original post by Tootles)
I thought unquestioningly accepting all dogma and ex cathedra pronouncements by the Pope was an absolute requirement of all Roman Catholics? Especially dogma - iirc rejecting any dogma is instant excommunication.

I dunno, you'd make a good Anglican. Sadly we can believe what we want. While I'm mostly Orthodox there are Anglicans who think none of it matters and you just go sing silly songs once a week.

NB I am not inviting you to be an Anglican - it's just how you come across, that your outlook is compatible with the CofE.
The catholic fundamentalist wing, ultras/traditionalists and some of more hardline religious conservative elements would likely agree with the automatic unquestioning acceptance, unless vatican ii was mentioned.
When vatican ii is mentioned, the conversation quickly degenerates into a medieval-esque snarling match with a lot of aggressive personal abuse and latin.

Roman catholicism is a very broad church, one which houses a variety of approaches (liberal, reform, conservative, traditionalist/hardline, ultra-traditionalist and fundamentalist).
Plenty of contrasting cultural traditions too, ranging from the more conciliatory humanist attitude of Jesuits to the more austere doctrinal hardliners of opus dei/ SSPX.
I'm not including the sedevacantist fundamentalists who stormed out decades ago excommunicating everyone else and leaving behind only echoes of dark age bellowing with a few very strange conspiracy theories.

I have been to CofE services, orthodox services and a few other protestant churches.
But I'm not keen on the nature or direction of CofE activism.
Perhaps it is the lasting legacy of Rowan William's tenure as AofC.
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NJA
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#89
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(Original post by AJ126)
Yes now it is.But it's history is long and bloody.The crusades ring a bell? The inquisition? The troubles? How about all those nice Catholic orphanages in northern Ireland where they murdered babies? Christianity is far from innocent.Its just mellowing in it's old age.Islam will too.
Don't confuse Christianity with religion that trades in it's name!
Jesus gave the Revelation which warns of the rise of false Christianity ("the mother of harlots"), and it's fall.

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36)
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Good bloke
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(Original post by NJA)
Don't confuse Christianity with religion that trades in it's name!
Jesus gave the Revelation which warns of the rise of false Christianity ("the mother of harlots"), and it's fall.
Yup. That is principal 7 from the create a religion manual - tell the world to beware of imposters.
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AperfectBalance
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(Original post by GetGradenines)
KKK: hold my bear
New Zealand white terrorist seconds your reply
If we were to report the number of terrorist attacks caused by islam or that were done in the name of Islam we would have too many to mention, I mean Islamic fundimentalists had set up a massive state in the middle east and fought years of war.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Tootles)
It's neither. You become a member of the Church on baptism. Nobody is born into the Church, they are born again into it.
Oh ok.
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londonmyst
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Did you directly experience the environment that your parents grew up in with the tension that persisted? Your family appear to be very strong-willed people with views and approaches that would raise eyebrows today. I do understand that it was a different time, but still.

I dont know if I missed it, but are you Catholic and would you raise your family in the Catholic religion? If no, why not. If yes, why?

Do you think that we should do away with all religion? There is an argument that says religion helps humans to be sane. Without religion, there would be more chaos because people would have not reason to act right. Do you agree?

How has your family experience evolved since the time of your mother’s father?
I'm catholic, one of the laziest in existence.
My family tree is filled with dogma fanatics, that's why I'm very cautious of identity politics zealots both religious/secular and their various causes.
In a way it's ironic how my father and his militant atheist group rant on about the omnipotent being they don't believe in, more often than most sane religious believers mention the G word.
Many militant atheists and anti-theist zealots are just as unpleasant as religious zealots- same bullying imposition, same lack of tolerance for other people's views and belief that its ok to just opt out of national law.

If I had children with a man who was atheist, protestant or from another religion- I would share his beliefs along with mine then leave the child/children to decide what they want to believe in.
I believe that people choose their own religion (beliefs, interpretation & practice), the same way that they choose their politics or music/lunch.
I would teach what different religions/denominations believe and share my own beliefs.
But I draw the line at any attempts at imposing subjective ideological allegiances on other people against their wishes- particularly when attempts aimed at indoctrination or conversion.

My mother's father never spoke to her again after the day he and his mother beat her unconscious, then locked her in a room unconscious in a pool of blood on the floor.
She was helped by a friendly member of the household staff who preferred the delights of the pub and gambling dens to violent ultra traditionalist catholicism.
I keep a momentum of that incident- a rather bloodthirsty looking antique teddy bear that still smells of my mother's blood. After decades of washing.

My mother was disinherited, shunned by almost all her family's social circle and when her father died he left instructions that she was not to be allowed to come to his funeral.
She still lights candles for him and prays for his forgiveness, although she knows it would take a miracle.
But my mother inherited a fiery temper along with the red hair and an autocratic attitude that children should immediately obey parents, even as adults.
History repeating itself, in an uncanny circle of life where the present/future echo the events of the past.

My maternal grandmother is pretty much surrounded by the same crowd of horrid religious fanatics she associated with when her husband was alive.
She was married as a teenager and is now in her 80s.
Her husband was much older than her, most of his friends died decades ago.
Her group are mostly sedevacantists with some opus dei members.
A few traditionalists who call themselves "dogmatic sedevacantists" to indicate that they have reasonably good manners and are law abiding.
A horrifying group of individuals: noisy, deranged, violent and most of them with long criminal records.
Their religion is openly medieval, involves long damnation prayers and venerates the very worst of historical figures/atrocities.
My grandmother is never violent, violence scares her- that was her husband and his mother's tactic often used against her.

But her religious theories were probably more extreme than the rest of the family- to the point that her mother in law questioned her sanity.
One was "posthumous adultery" where a widow remarrying is adultery, shamefully disloyal and a mortal sin comparable to murder.
Her husband kept sedevacantists at a distance, got angry when they abused the papacy and banned anyone in the household from funding sedevacantist activities.
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GetGradenines
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
If we were to report the number of terrorist attacks caused by islam or that were done in the name of Islam we would have too many to mention, I mean Islamic fundimentalists had set up a massive state in the middle east and fought years of war.
You cannot even compare what the KKK did, or what people like george bush and tony blair, who made the decisions to kill millions of innocent civillians, they would be too many to mention
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Trapmoneybenny
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(Original post by Good bloke)
The violence in the Bible is no laughing matter. The god that Christians worship is well known to be a vengeful, violent, brutish and arbitrary despot, threatening cruel retribution to sinners and non-believers, and perpetrating genocide on several occasions. The Book of Revelations is particularly nasty in its dire prognostication.
(Original post by Good bloke)
Just read the Bible with an open mind and you will see for yourself. Ponder on why such cruelty and arbitrary barbaric justice is necessary and ask yourself whether you want to be associated with such a sick deity. A truly all-loving and all-powerful god would be able to find another way.
Funny how you hate someone or in your view, something that doesn't exist. If he isn't real and is just a concoction of a rather long lasting and very very sophisticated delusion, why do you bother yourself?

I find you Atheists very hilarious, you rage against a God, who you'll claim to swear doesn't exist....in reality though, you can only shove your head into the sand for so long. You, along with every human on the planet are only here for a short time, a vapor, Jesus called it, to signify how infinitesimal anybody's time is in this life. You'll die and meet the God you claim doesn't exist.
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Waldorf67
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Why did an immigration officer post that letter?
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AperfectBalance
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(Original post by GetGradenines)
You cannot even compare what the KKK did, or what people like george bush and tony blair, who made the decisions to kill millions of innocent civillians, they would be too many to mention
You really can.
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GetGradenines
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you must have failed your sats, because even 11 year olds can prove you wrong.
(Original post by AperfectBalance)
You really can.
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That'sGreat
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(Original post by Good bloke)
The violence in the Bible is no laughing matter. The god that Christians worship is well known to be a vengeful, violent, brutish and arbitrary despot, threatening cruel retribution to sinners and non-believers, and perpetrating genocide on several occasions. The Book of Revelations is particularly nasty in its dire prognostication.
Majority of Christians don't go by the Old Testament though. All Muslims follow the Qu'ran however.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by That'sGreat)
Majority of Christians don't go by the Old Testament though. All Muslims follow the Qu'ran however.
Because they cherrypick their belief system, which is stupid. You either believe in everything or you don't.
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