Jeremy Corbyn declares Labour Party is ready to take power and rebuild Britain Watch

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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I never wrote that we were not good, but Colin wrote that we were the best, which we certainly are not. I also think our position is based on historical precedence and the current day influence. If we are to start a new UNSC today, i doubt we will be in the running for a permanent seat.

1. Yes, the effectiveness of intelligence services is underpinned by cooperation. I think that is why we are lucky enough to be support by the “5 eyes” programme and have access to swathes of information from top agencies like Mossad, CIA, FSB etc.

2. Fair enough. London has been key because it posed a good segue to the European market. I think the language and political stability historically helped banks and markets to rely on London. This is changing as many centres like Zurich, Frankfurt, Shanghai etc. want a bigger share.

3. The British Empire is dead and buried. We should forget about it.

4. I never wrote there was anything wrong with our involvement in NATO. I wrote that we as a nation cannot go to war on our own. The top countries like Russia, China, the US, probably India etc. can do so, but we cannot. We love to big ourselves up and our standing in the world, but we are not as important as we think.

To your last point, I acknowledge it and agree with some parts, but i still think there are more innovative ways that we can use the £150 Billion that we probably spend on nuclear deterrents.
Glad you agree about our good intelligence services and the 2nd most important financial capital in the world... only referred to the Empire insofar, as a historical strategic position, as geography does not really affect our power to a significant margin at all anymore...

It is arguable that no major nation can go on an all out war and party like its the 1200s, as for total domination because of the sheer destruction it would cause, as well as for India, China apart from border changes in Kashmir and we now have no need to invade some poor country, because our relative political stability like all our other European allies, like France, in a similar position, though the US wishes to nudge its way into everything as a superpower, or have muppets like Blair drag us into every war they fight.

I think Brexit will have a detrimental effect on our nation and was a mistake, though the previous message painted a very bleak position of our power in the world, so just stepped in as it went a bit far, as we are still a key player in European and global politics though accept that Brexit will affect this... most of it though is just matters of opinion, and respect your position on our nuclear deterrents...
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
Glad you agree about our good intelligence services and our large financial centre in London... only referred to the Empire insofar, as a historical strategic position, as geography does not really affect our power to a significant margin at all anymore...

It is arguable that no major nation can go on an all out war and party like its the 1200s, as for total domination because of the sheer destruction it would cause, as well as for India, China apart from border skirmishes in Kashmir and we now have no need to invade some poor country, because our relative political stability like all our other European allies, though the US wishes to nudge its way into everything as a superpower, or have muppets like Blair drag us into every war they fight.

I think Brexit will have a detrimental effect on our nation and was a mistake, though the previous message painted a very bleak position of our power in the world, so just stepped in as it went a bit far, as we are still a key player in European and global politics though accept that Brexit will affect this... most of it though is just matters of opinion, and respect your position on our nuclear deterrents...
Yes, we are good but not as good as we think. I was hard because people esp those who listen to the Tories think we are still at the zenith of Empire. We need to open up to our current position as a diminished power in need of real political allies.

Yes, countries are not stupid to go to war now because of the issues that would follow. However, I meant that very few nations have the ability to initiate real conflict or withstand a fierce attack without the support of others.

Some people seem to think we are one of the top players, when we are not. Remember when Gavin Williamson told Russia to “shut up” and got ridiculed because we all knew that Russia was a bigger and more powerful nation than the UK.

I agree with your last paragraph.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Yes, we are good but not as good as we think. I was hard because people esp those who listen to the Tories think we are still at the zenith of Empire. We need to open up to our current position as a diminished power in need of real political allies.

Yes, countries are not stupid to go to war now because of the issues that would follow. However, I meant that very few nations have the ability to initiate real conflict or withstand a fierce attack without the support of others.

Some people seem to think we are one of the top players, when we are not. Remember when Gavin Williamson told Russia to “shut up” and got ridiculed because we all knew that Russia was a bigger and more powerful nation than the UK.

I agree with your last paragraph.
yeah thats mostly old timers, looking at the past with rose tinted glasses, and ignore the atrocities on the back which the "biggest empire in history" was built...

(Russia is more powerful militarily, though our economy is 1.7x the size of Russia, Russia needs to focus on its outer regions, instead of Moscow and St Petersburg alone desperately, though deserves its seat on the UNSC and is among the most powerful in the world)

Agree that UK and other European countries cannot walk into a full out war without allied support though apart from proxy wars, a fierce attack between major powers will not end well...

Though whilst it is the case that the UK is not the most powerful nation on Earth, we remain a key global and European player, (may be affected to some degree by Brexit), so we can be proud of our nation in this respect, nothing wrong with this imo, and the previous image was unneccesarily bleak....

(Glad to see some actual sound debate on TSR though - quite rare with all the new age commies etc.)
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Molseh
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1.
Bigger budget/exposure =/= Better.
4.
The fact that the British have the best military training in the world is a given in military circles.
Sandhurst is globally viewed as the best Officer Training School.
British Special Forces are renowned worldwide - we provide training and expertise to most other SF in NATO - when the US decided to form SEAL Team 1 + 2 in the 60s, they called on the SBS to provide a structured selection and training package.
USA/China/Russia training is amongst the most basic in the world.
Twelve months spent in a NATO team in a sandy country convinced me of all the above.

(Original post by Wired_1800)
What????

1. We are better than the CIA or FSB?? Really? Ok.

4. We are the best trained and respected military in the world? Again, really???? Better than the Americans, Chinese or Russians. We are not even in the top 5 by military spend.
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Molseh
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We are better than the public think we are.
(Original post by Wired_1800)
Yes, we are good but not as good as we think.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I never wrote that we were not good, but Colin wrote that we were the best, which we certainly are not. I also think our position is based on historical precedence and the current day influence. If we are to start a new UNSC today, i doubt we will be in the running for a permanent seat.

1. Yes, the effectiveness of intelligence services is underpinned by cooperation. I think that is why we are lucky enough to be support by the “5 eyes” programme and have access to swathes of information from top agencies like Mossad, CIA, FSB etc.

2. Fair enough. London has been key because it posed a good segue to the European market. I think the language and political stability historically helped banks and markets to rely on London. This is changing as many centres like Zurich, Frankfurt, Shanghai etc. want a bigger share.

3. The British Empire is dead and buried. We should forget about it.

4. I never wrote there was anything wrong with our involvement in NATO. I wrote that we as a nation cannot go to war on our own. The top countries like Russia, China, the US, probably India etc. can do so, but we cannot. We love to big ourselves up and our standing in the world, but we are not as important as we think.

To your last point, I acknowledge it and agree with some parts, but i still think there are more innovative ways that we can use the £150 Billion that we probably spend on nuclear deterrents.
I think if you read what I wrote you will see I said one of, if not the best, that is a matter of opinion though.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Molseh)
1.
Bigger budget/exposure =/= Better.
4.
The fact that the British have the best military training in the world is a given in military circles.
Sandhurst is globally viewed as the best Officer Training School.
British Special Forces are renowned worldwide - we provide training and expertise to most other SF in NATO - when the US decided to form SEAL Team 1 + 2 in the 60s, they called on the SBS to provide a structured selection and training package.
USA/China/Russia training is amongst the most basic in the world.
Twelve months spent in a NATO team in a sandy country convinced me of all the above.
(Original post by Molseh)
We are better than the public think we are.
1. This is not about bigger budget or exposure. The CIA is undoubtedly the best intelligence agency in the world. The FSB and Mossad follow as second and third.

4. You seem to have forgotten that the US has West Point.

Are you part of the military? If so, thank you for your service.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by Molseh)
1.
Bigger budget/exposure =/= Better.
4.
The fact that the British have the best military training in the world is a given in military circles.
Sandhurst is globally viewed as the best Officer Training School.
British Special Forces are renowned worldwide - we provide training and expertise to most other SF in NATO - when the US decided to form SEAL Team 1 + 2 in the 60s, they called on the SBS to provide a structured selection and training package.
USA/China/Russia training is amongst the most basic in the world.
Twelve months spent in a NATO team in a sandy country convinced me of all the above.
definitely agree about our world class military training, bit stretched to call US/Russian training basic, though we do enjoy a selective advantage in this regard
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
yeah thats mostly old timers, looking at the past with rose tinted glasses, and ignore the atrocities on the back which the "biggest empire in history" was built...

(Russia is more powerful militarily, though our economy is 1.7x the size of Russia, Russia needs to focus on its outer regions, instead of Moscow and St Petersburg alone desperately, though deserves its seat on the UNSC and is among the most powerful in the world)

Agree that UK and other European countries cannot walk into a full out war without allied support though apart from proxy wars, a fierce attack between major powers will not end well...

Though whilst it is the case that the UK is not the most powerful nation on Earth, we remain a key global and European player, (may be affected to some degree by Brexit), so we can be proud of our nation in this respect, nothing wrong with this imo, and the previous image was unneccesarily bleak....

(Glad to see some actual sound debate on TSR though - quite rare with all the new age commies etc.)
Yes, Russia has a smaller economy but a bigger and arguably more powerful military complex. I think the issue with Russia is that probably 50% of its country, if not more, is uninhabitable.

I agree with your other points. We should support our nation, but there seems to be a stretch. For example, Colin’s argument that we are the “best” is factually untrue.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ColinDent)
I think if you read what I wrote you will see I said one of, if not the best, that is a matter of opinion though.
Apologies, if I misrepresented your point.
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Molseh
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On the whole US training is very very poor, by default they break you down and teach you to follow orders and little else - whereas an emphasis we have is to focus on problem solving and leadership from a very junior rank. A private coming out of Basic Training in the British Army has the knowledge to do his job up to Corporal - just lacks the experience. The same can't be said for the US.
An exception I would make is when it comes to Cyber/Technical - they have better kit and provide better technical training in this area.
I can't really comment on Russia without any experience there - but I imagine they follow a similar ideology.
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
definitely agree about our world class military training, bit stretched to call US/Russian training basic, though we do enjoy a selective advantage in this regard
The CIA is operationally one of the worst Intelligence Agencies in the world - you can judge that at a most basic level on the worlds knowledge of what they do and how they do it. Two things that are better to be kept secret.

RMAS is a year long intense military training academy that allies around the world pay thousands to have their best officers train at.
West Point is essentially a RG University with Officer Cadet training tagged on.
(Original post by Wired_1800)
1. This is not about bigger budget or exposure. The CIA is undoubtedly the best intelligence agency in the world. The FSB and Mossad follow as second and third.

4. You seem to have forgotten that the US has West Point.

Are you part of the military? If so, thank you for your service.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Molseh)

The CIA is operationally one of the worst Intelligence Agencies in the world - you can judge that at a most basic level on the worlds knowledge of what they do and how they do it. Two things that are better to be kept secret.

RMAS is a year long intense military training academy that allies around the world pay thousands to have their best officers train at.
West Point is essentially a RG University with Officer Cadet training tagged on.
Everyone knows how intelligence agencies operate. The reason why people are interested in the CIA is because it is regarded as the best. Just because we don't know much of the operations of the MI sections or SIS does not mean they are the best agencies. We don't know much about Cuba’s intelligence agencies, should we consider them to be the best agency?

I don't think West Point is a glorified RG university. You are not doing justice to one of the top or even best military academies in the world.
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Molseh
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West point is quite literally like a RG University with a UOTC attached except you have to do I think 5 weeks basic training before and some cadet stuff throughout the course. Then after graduation a basic leadership course.
Very poor comparison to RMAS.

The CIA have a long track record of failures which are public knowledge. I struggle to think of how many will never see public eyes.
If you want to talk Russia then SVR is more relevant comparison to the CIA to be honest. Again very little known about them from my experiences.

What makes our system very effective is the link from military to security services. With a solid crossover between MI6 to SRR who share chain of command with our teeth arms.





(Original post by Wired_1800)
Everyone knows how intelligence agencies operate. The reason why people are interested in the CIA is because it is regarded as the best. Just because we don't know much of the operations of the MI sections or SIS does not mean they are the best agencies. We don't know much about Cuba’s intelligence agencies, should we consider them to be the best agency?

I don't think West Point is a glorified RG university. You are not doing justice to one of the top or even best military academies in the world.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Apologies, if I misrepresented your point.
No probs, easily done.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Molseh)
West point is quite literally like a RG University with a UOTC attached except you have to do I think 5 weeks basic training before and some cadet stuff throughout the course. Then after graduation a basic leadership course.
Very poor comparison to RMAS.

The CIA have a long track record of failures which are public knowledge. I struggle to think of how many will never see public eyes.
If you want to talk Russia then SVR is more relevant comparison to the CIA to be honest. Again very little known about them from my experiences.

What makes our system very effective is the link from military to security services. With a solid crossover between MI6 to SRR who share chain of command with our teeth arms.
Have you trained at West Point? How can you make sure comments about the institution?

So the CIA is the only agency to have made errors. Should I remind you of the Manchester Arena bombings that MI sections knew the bomber?

You can stretching this too far.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Have you trained at West Point? How can you make sure comments about the institution?

So the CIA is the only agency to have made errors. Should I remind you of the Manchester Arena bombings that MI sections knew the bomber?

You can stretching this too far.
Got to agree with you here, and the bigger point is how many possible atrocities do intelligence agencies around the world stop?
I wasn't trying to denigrate other intel agencies as they all do a very difficult and important job, but some are superior to others.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Got to agree with you here, and the bigger point is how many possible atrocities do intelligence agencies around the world stop?
I wasn't trying to denigrate other intel agencies as they all do a very difficult and important job, but some are superior to others.
The issue about intelligence agencies is that they are not praised for the atrocities they stopped but those they failed to stop. As most of their activities are covert, it will be difficult to know how many good things they have done or issues they have stopped from happening.

Yes, some agencies are better than others. But the idea that ours is the best is a bit too far.
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Molseh
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No, I had a nice visit and walk around by my deployed CO whilst observing the Annual Sandhurst Military Skills Comptetition - ironically and counter to my argument won by one of the USMA teams. In fact my entire opinion on this matter was formed through his team and their experiences as Officers on a NATO deployment. Me being an enlisted pleb never really considered it further than observing that my Officers seemed to know their stuff.
I also don't tend to get involved in online debate but you managed to hit the spot with your internet-based claims on the capabilities and training of our Armed Forces and Security Services.

You also seem to be repeatedly mixing up domestic and overseas/foreign intelligence services at will. For your reference it would be something like this:
MI6 = CIA = SVR
MI5 = FBI = FSB

If you require further clarification I direct you to Google.

Regards,
(Original post by Wired_1800)
Have you trained at West Point? How can you make sure comments about the institution?

So the CIA is the only agency to have made errors. Should I remind you of the Manchester Arena bombings that MI sections knew the bomber?
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Molseh)
No, I had a nice visit and walk around by my deployed CO whilst observing the Annual Sandhurst Military Skills Comptetition - ironically and counter to my argument won by one of the USMA teams. In fact my entire opinion on this matter was formed through his team and their experiences as Officers on a NATO deployment. Me being an enlisted pleb never really considered it further than observing that my Officers seemed to know their stuff.
I also don't tend to get involved in online debate but you managed to hit the spot with your internet-based claims on the capabilities and training of our Armed Forces and Security Services.

You also seem to be repeatedly mixing up domestic and overseas/foreign intelligence services at will. For your reference it would be something like this:
MI6 = CIA = SVR
MI5 = FBI = FSB

If you require further clarification I direct you to Google.

Regards,
I know the different intelligence branches for the nations that I spoke about. I mentioned those names because I knew that many people would not know other names, other than those in the know or intelligence agents.

I don't want to continue to press this issue. Thank you for your service.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
The issue about intelligence agencies is that they are not praised for the atrocities they stopped but those they failed to stop. As most of their activities are covert, it will be difficult to know how many good things they have done or issues they have stopped from happening.

Yes, some agencies are better than others. But the idea that ours is the best is a bit too far.
Which as we have already established I did not actually say, one of the best though and therefore one reason why we are a very big target for any rogue states wishing to cause havoc.
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