Brexit

there will be widespread disorder if the wretched referendumb decision is not implemented convincingly. already various Brexit ******s have disrupted the rail network by climbing onto station roofs and placing objects on lines.

The police just have to keep arresting and prosecuting them (as they did with the lorry drivers trying to block some motorways a couple of weeks back).
And as their actions are designed to promote a political ideology, they can be held and prosecuted under terrorism laws.
They'll soon stop after a few have received long prison sentences in maximum-security prisons. Put them in with the Islamists - that would be delicious irony!

Reply 21

z-hog

13

Original post by QE2

That doesn't make any sense. You are the one ignoring the events and developments of the last 3 years. That is "living in a parallel universe and having no interest whatsoever in what happens in the real world."

Yes, the Leave vote gained a small majority is an advisory referendum. But that was nearly 3 years ago, since when the Leave campaign since been convicted of breaking election laws, most of the claims made by Leave campaigners were lies, it has become clear that there is no agreement of how we should Leave, the economic implications are damaging, etc, etc.
There really is no logical or reasonable argument for continuing to force Brexit through. Simply chanting the mantra of "We won, get over it" is not even an argument, but if it was it would be meaningless.

So, other than the historical result of a now redundant public opinion exercise, what reason is there for leaving the EU?

i don't recognize any of that as realistic, we'll have to differ and that's it: you think I'm away with the fairies and I feel exactly the same about you. It's no big deal, the difference is that you are a Remainer and I'm a Democrat. Simple as that.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything at all you're prepared to give away on Brexit? You want to keep the customs union, freedom of movement, euro-courts, leave all that unchanged, the freedom to have an independent trade policy with the rest of the world.. You criticize people to whom Brexit represents walking away from all that so here's an unanswerable question:

Do you think anything at all ought to change or just plainly advocate that we forget about Brexit altogether and move on? What are you prepared to compromise on, what links with the EU would you put the scissors to?

Reply 22

QE2

20

Original post by z-hog

i don't recognize any of that as realistic, we'll have to differ and that's it: you think I'm away with the fairies and I feel exactly the same about you. It's no big deal, the difference is that you are a Remainer and I'm a Democrat. Simple as that.

What do you mean "you don't recognise it as realistic"? What part of my post do you think isn't real? Seriously? Are you just sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "not listening"?

Just out of curiosity, is there anything at all you're prepared to give away on Brexit? You want to keep the customs union, freedom of movement, euro-courts, leave all that unchanged, the freedom to have an independent trade policy with the rest of the world.. You criticize people to whom Brexit represents walking away from all that so here's an unanswerable question:

Do you think anything at all ought to change or just plainly advocate that we forget about Brexit altogether and move on? What are you prepared to compromise on, what links with the EU would you put the scissors to?

I have yet to be made aware of any element of our relationship with the EU that I am opposed to, so as it stands, I wouldn't change anything. However, each issue needs to be addressed on its own merits and if something was brought up that was problematic, I'd consider suggesting changes. (See, that wasn't "unanswerable" )

So how about you? What are your objections to specific elements of our relationship with the EU.

Reply 23

username4417014

4

Original post by Nasif.

Guyz currently Brexit is a hot topic. Ive got even a case study under this topic. So plz comment whatever you all know and think abt Brexit.
Should it happen?
Should it be stopped?
Advantages and Disadvantages, London get it Brexit happens.

Brexit should 100% be stopped.

Reply 24

z-hog

13

Original post by QE2

What do you mean "you don't recognise it as realistic"? What part of my post do you think isn't real? Seriously? Are you just sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "not listening"?

All of it, there's nothing 'real' enough in it for me. Even all this assumption that Brexit means economic suicide is entirely subjective, nobody can quantify it in the real world. We don't know the outcome of the newly acquired freedom to strike trading deals with the world, anybody pretending such things can be measured is a voice pushing a political opinion, of course the Guardian have it plastered all over. In reality, it will take a decade or two for anyone to assess the impact of Brexit, of course there is a short-term in this but independently minded people cast their nets a bit wider than that. You believe it will be the end of the world because that's what you want to believe, there is no real basis for it all. Stuff the experts, who pays them?

When I tell you there is a lot of discontent out there in the country about this reversal attempt, why is it so problematic to believe it? Is it only because you don't want to or are there some real sources of information to suggest that there isn't much of it? What sources are they, who is telling you that?

I have yet to be made aware of any element of our relationship with the EU that I am opposed to, so as it stands, I wouldn't change anything. However, each issue needs to be addressed on its own merits and if something was brought up that was problematic, I'd consider suggesting changes. (See, that wasn't "unanswerable" )

That's right, you wouldn't change anything because you're a Remainer. That much I can follow, just wanted to confirm that you have no interest whatsoever in seeing Brexit implemented and that everything you say may be very consistent but only from a Remainer's perspective. You can't possibly expect it to make sense to anybody else, none of it makes sense from the democratic view that Brexit simply has to be implemented and that all attempts to derail it by the losing camp must be checked. This same thing is what happened in the US with Trump and from the same quadrant. .

It's easily lost on younger generations that this 'democracy' lark hasn't been around for that long in history, only thirty years ago half of Europe didn't know what it looks like. Many parts of the world still don't do. A century ago, European autocratic regimes were equally present and nothing good came of it. It hasn't always been there, not one of those human entitlements taken in as a given and for such reasons it is important to preserve the reputation and worth of democracy. All this is headed to making an awful lot of people (including myself, frankly) lose faith and respect for the political class like never before and the consequences of such displacements of public confidence create a vacuum that goes on to be filled by the vultures.

So how about you? What are your objections to specific elements of our relationship with the EU.

None, I don't look at it that way. You may remember my telling you that I'm an EU citizen who is happy to sit back and watch what the natives do, for that reason never a Brexiteer or Remainer. Of course that my personal convenience would be immensely better served by remaining, that goes without saying but we can't let such things get in the way of objectivity (talking of which, you may want to ponder on whatever it was that gave you the idea that I'm a Brexiteer). Been here long enough to call it home, whatever will be will be.

The problem is the more worldy issue with that democracy thing, that is like a final frontier or red line. On that front, I see a struggle between democrats and those who don't think much of it (or at all...) and it's tilting the wrong way. A referendum cannot be overturned only because the losing camp manage to subvert it through their powerful means or on the back of arguments that don't hold any weight other than within their echo-chamber. All the polls and experts making the case for doomsday, who are they, who pays them, who commissions and funds the polling, how many stand some technical scrutiny, it's all a construct. Nobody can safely say the UK won't be cheering in a decade's time, anyone pretending they know is doing somebody's bidding in all this.

The EU are a reluctant divorcee and the vested interests in this country collude with them for as long as there is a hope of overturning the democratic result. Everything is being done to end up with just that, every year we stay means a few more billions in the Brussels books and if they can keep dragging it to the point of a second referendum... we might end up pretending nothing ever happened and finally get on with our lives. Fake news destroy the credibility of the media, this is destroying what's left of it with the political class to everyone who voted to Leave.

A particularly distasteful side to Remainers, to my impartial take, is the intellectual contempt they breathe over the 52%. Whether they can live with it or not, democracy means that every man and woman is entitled to a vote and that is a red line too. Not nice and potentially symptomatic of some unhealthy anti-democratic tendencies of the type where it's all fab about it but only when going their way. Otherwise... boo.

Look, I think I've emptied the bag. If you or anyone can C&P anything I've ever said to suggest I'm a Brexiteer I'll give them a hundred quid. I've stopped following Brexit a month or two ago, that's how off putting the whole thing has become. I know exactly what you mean in every line, when taken in as the perspective of a Remainer who would reverse the referendum result if he could.

Reply 25

QE2

20

Original post by z-hog

All of it, there's nothing 'real' enough in it for me.

Ok, lets go through it, point by point.
"the Leave campaign since been convicted of breaking election laws," - Realistic. It is a matter or record in the criminal court. the Leave campaign has even dropped its appeal against conviction, which can be seen as an admission of guilt.

"most of the claims made by Leave campaigners were lies," - Realistic. Find me a claim made by the Leave campaign that was not at least a misrepresentation of the facts. You'll struggle to find more than a rew.

"it has become clear that there is no agreement of how we should Leave," - I don't think that even the most ardent Leaver can claim this isn't "realistic".

"the economic implications are damaging" - Realistic. Even Leave spokespeople usually accept that there will be some negative impact, at least in the short term. Mogg's investment firm say as much in the prospectus for their new fund based in Ireland.

So when you say that you "don't recognise it as realistic", what you actually mean is that you'd rather ignore uncomfortable truths.

Even all this assumption that Brexit means economic suicide is entirely subjective, nobody can quantify it in the real world.

I've never claimed it was "economic suicide", just that it will be damaging to the economy. That is the consensus amongst experts - even Brexiteers.

We don't know the outcome of the newly acquired freedom to strike trading deals with the world,

But we do know that it will take time, possibly several years, and we will be negotiating from a weaker position than we are now.

anybody pretending such things can be measured is a voice pushing a political opinion,

So you reject the calims of Leave spokespeople that the economy will improve?

When I tell you there is a lot of discontent out there in the country about this reversal attempt, why is it so problematic to believe it? Is it only because you don't want to or are there some real sources of information to suggest that there isn't much of it? What sources are they, who is telling you that?

No, I believe it. They want something and the possibility of not getting it upsets them. The reasonable arguments having it are irrelevant. They are like a spoilt child stamping its feet when they don't get their way.

just wanted to confirm that you have no interest whatsoever in seeing Brexit implemented and that everything you say may be very consistent but only from a Remainer's perspective.

Absolutely! Why would you expect any different? However, as Brexit happening is very likely, I would prefer one that least damages the economy and the values I support. While I wouldn't be happy with it, I would accept a "Norway model" Brexit as the best of a bad bunch.
What about you? Is your position open to compromise? In fact, what model of Brexit do you actually support? Or are you just "Leave Means Leave" (whatever that means)?

You can't possibly expect it to make sense to anybody else, none of it makes sense from the democratic view that Brexit simply has to be implemented and that all attempts to derail it by the losing camp must be checked. This same thing is what happened in the US with Trump and from the same quadrant. .

This is an important point that seems lost on many Leave supporters. It does have to make sense! Even if you disagree with it, it must be a reasonable, rational proposition.
You can't base a country's economic and social policy on "It may not make any sense, but trust me, it'll be fine". That is just insane!

It's easily lost on younger generations that this 'democracy' lark hasn't been around for that long in history,

Depends what the context is.

only thirty years ago half of Europe didn't know what it looks like.

And the EU has unified Europe and presided over the longest continuous era of peace that Europe has ever seen. The EU was a stabilising influence on the aftermath of the break-up of the USSR.

Many parts of the world still don't do. A century ago, European autocratic regimes were equally present and nothing good came of it. It hasn't always been there, not one of those human entitlements taken in as a given and for such reasons it is important to preserve the reputation and worth of democracy. All this is headed to making an awful lot of people (including myself, frankly) lose faith and respect for the political class like never before and the consequences of such displacements of public confidence create a vacuum that goes on to be filled by the vultures.

Ah, is this the "allowing the people a democratic vote is undemocratic" argument? Good luck with that!

To quote the prominent Brexit supporter and ex-Brixit Minister, David Davis "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."
(BTW, he also said in 2002, quoting Clement Atlee, "The referendum is the device of demagogues and dictators" )

A referendum cannot be overturned only because the losing camp manage to subvert it through their powerful means or on the back of arguments that don't hold any weight other than within their echo-chamber.

A referendum is an advisory exercise. It is not binding. It can simply be ignored by the government if it so wishes. It can certainly be overruled if the conditions under which it was decided fundamentally change.
What's more, any democratic vote can be overturned by a subsequent democratic vote on the same issue.
Like so many who bang on about "democracy" in this context, you seem to have little understanding of how it works.

All the polls and experts making the case for doomsday, who are they, who pays them, who commissions and funds the polling, how many stand some technical scrutiny, it's all a construct. Nobody can safely say the UK won't be cheering in a decade's time, anyone pretending they know is doing somebody's bidding in all this.

The "we've had enough of experts" argument, I believe?

A particularly distasteful side to Remainers, to my impartial take, is the intellectual contempt they breathe over the 52%.

Unfair! I only have contempt for the ones who insist on maintaining their irrational, dogmatic stance in the face of evidence and reason.

Whether they can live with it or not, democracy means that every man and woman is entitled to a vote and that is a red line too. Not nice and potentially symptomatic of some unhealthy anti-democratic tendencies of the type where it's all fab about it but only when going their way. Otherwise... boo.

Ironic much? It is Leavers who are denying the right to vote, because it might not go their way.
You mentioned intellectual contempt earlier - when you make statements like this, what do you expect?

Look, I think I've emptied the bag. If you or anyone can C&P anything I've ever said to suggest I'm a Brexiteer I'll give them a hundred quid.

Erm, everything you have said suggest you are a Brexit supporter. You might not be, but if it looks like a duck, etc...

a Remainer who would reverse the referendum result if he could.

As the referendum was merely advisory with no legal weight, there is technically not an issue with simply ignoring it. However, I appreciate how salty Leavers are getting, so a second democratic vote would be the best option. As a massive fan and student of democracy, you must be in favour of that?

Reply 26

z-hog

13

Original post by QE2

As the referendum was merely advisory with no legal weight, there is technically not an issue with simply ignoring it. However, I appreciate how salty Leavers are getting, so a second democratic vote would be the best option. As a massive fan and student of democracy, you must be in favour of that?

So all this is going on as a consequence of an advisory and non-legally binding ref? That and your support for Jezza tell me we are as far apart on this as on God and your reply is appreciated but there is nothing for us in going over every line of it. It's no problem at all, have you ever seen anyone being moved by what the other side say? I could argue every line with you but there's nothing to be gained from it so let's just respect each other's opinions and that's it. Pretend we do, anyway. :biggrin:

If there is a second referendum we ought to have a third just to confirm it either way. I may have asked you before what would happen if Leave won again, the type of thing that doesn't seem occur to Remainers banking on winning it this time. It's like assuming that letting kids vote would see them all vote Remain, which is pretty overbearing and condescending of Remainers too. I'm off, take care.

Reply 27

QE2

20

Original post by z-hog

So all this is going on as a consequence of an advisory and non-legally binding ref?

No, it is going on because of the the Tory party's internal power struggles.

That and your support for Jezza

Corbyn has lost my, and many other Labout voters, support as leader over his stance on Brexit.

so let's just respect each other's opinions and that's it. Pretend we do, anyway. :biggrin:

Why pretend? Respect must be earned, not demanded or even expected.

If there is a second referendum we ought to have a third just to confirm it either way.

No need if it is done properly. Clear choices based on detail - eg, May's Deal, Norway, No Deal or Remain.
People know exactly what they are voting for and whet the expected outcome is. Can't see why anyone would object to that.

I may have asked you before what would happen if Leave won again, the type of thing that doesn't seem occur to Remainers banking on winning it this time.

Simple. Implement the specific choice of the majority. That was the problem with the first one, "Leave" was almost a meaningless option, highlighted by the fact that there is no agreement over what "Leave" actually means (and no, "Leave Means Leave" is just a meaningless platitude)

It's like assuming that letting kids vote would see them all vote Remain, which is pretty overbearing and condescending of Remainers too. I'm off, take care.

No one is saying that they will all vote remain, but the evidence (yes I know, Leavers distrust evidence almost as much as they distrust experts) shows that around 70% of 18-25s voted Remain while around 70% of over 65s voted Leave. Recent polls show the over 65s Leave vote staying the same while the 18-25 Remain vote has gone up to 80%.
So yes, it is a reasonable assumption that those 16-18 year olds at the time of the referendum would mostly vote Remain.
There was a study that showed that even if no one changed their mind, the changing demographic of voters (young people getting the vote and old people dying) meant that Remain would have gone into the majority several months ago.

Reply 28

mgi

20

Original post by QE2

That doesn't make any sense. You are the one ignoring the events and developments of the last 3 years. That is "living in a parallel universe and having no interest whatsoever in what happens in the real world."

Yes, the Leave vote gained a small majority is an advisory referendum. But that was nearly 3 years ago, since when the Leave campaign since been convicted of breaking election laws, most of the claims made by Leave campaigners were lies, it has become clear that there is no agreement of how we should Leave, the economic implications are damaging, etc, etc.
There really is no logical or reasonable argument for continuing to force Brexit through. Simply chanting the mantra of "We won, get over it" is not even an argument, but if it was it would be meaningless.

So, other than the historical result of a now redundant public opinion exercise, what reason is there for leaving the EU?

Ok. Rather than just simply listening to the shouting of the Remainers, wouldn't it be an idea then to have another referendum seeing as everyone now understands what they would be voting for. They would all ,of course ,understand things such as the Customs Union, the back stop/hard border issue, the popular damage to business argument and would have read May's withdrawal agreement and be able to explain why its so unpopular etc. lol. Maybe also, because this is also about the chaos in the Tory party and the disunity in the Labour, we could also have general election to make things really exciting. Brexit,at least, is helping more people to see that our two party state is broken. Hopefully the Brexit negotiations will be extended to next March and then more people will remember the political chaos in time for the pending General election and hopefully neither the Tories or Labour would have an overall majority. Continuing cross party dialogues may be the way forward rather than the never ending austerity policy forcibly implemented by the tories. One problem with Brexit is that other equally important issues have been put on the back burner.

Reply 29

QE2

20

Original post by mgi

Ok. Rather than just simply listening to the shouting of the Remainers, wouldn't it be an idea then to have another referendum seeing as everyone now understands what they would be voting for. They would all ,of course ,understand things such as the Customs Union, the back stop/hard border issue, the popular damage to business argument and would have read May's withdrawal agreement and be able to explain why its so unpopular etc. lol. Maybe also, because this is also about the chaos in the Tory party and the disunity in the Labour, we could also have general election to make things really exciting. Brexit,at least, is helping more people to see that our two party state is broken. Hopefully the Brexit negotiations will be extended to next March and then more people will remember the political chaos in time for the pending General election and hopefully neither the Tories or Labour would have an overall majority. Continuing cross party dialogues may be the way forward rather than the never ending austerity policy forcibly implemented by the tories. One problem with Brexit is that other equally important issues have been put on the back burner.

No second referendum. Just cancel Brexit entirely. The gov't and MPs should do their duty and put the nation's interests first.

Reply 30

anarchism101

17

Original post by QE2

That doesn't make any sense. You are the one ignoring the events and developments of the last 3 years. That is "living in a parallel universe and having no interest whatsoever in what happens in the real world."

Yes, the Leave vote gained a small majority is an advisory referendum. But that was nearly 3 years ago, since when the Leave campaign since been convicted of breaking election laws, most of the claims made by Leave campaigners were lies, it has become clear that there is no agreement of how we should Leave, the economic implications are damaging, etc, etc.
There really is no logical or reasonable argument for continuing to force Brexit through. Simply chanting the mantra of "We won, get over it" is not even an argument, but if it was it would be meaningless.

So, other than the historical result of a now redundant public opinion exercise, what reason is there for leaving the EU?

All true and I agree, though my initial post was getting at something more. Even if opinions haven't changed, political dynamics have. Priorities in 2016 are no longer priorities.

The previous poster is still talking about Brexit as if it's still some heterodox rebellious phenomenon. Even if that was ever true in the first place (and I think that's quite dubious anyway), it is no longer the case now. The vast majority of major active politicians are now at least publicly in favour of leaving the EU. Even if you think they're lying and are still secretly pro-Remain, the mere fact that they have to lie demonstrates how dominant the pro-Brexit orthodoxy now is. As far as "political correctness" means anything, Brexit has now become the politically correct position. Indeed, hard Brexiters themselves implicitly acknowledge this when they move the goalposts to pretend all the Brexit options they don't like aren't "real Brexit". And the reaction to the pro-Remain protests and petition demonstrates it further. Imagine if you'd managed to get a 6 million signature petition and a 1 million-strong rally in London in favour of May's Deal, or No Deal - I think we all know that it would have been enough to carry through that outcome, to put it beyond doubt.

As for the idea that FoM has been "kept out of sight", that's even more absurd. May made ending it the central issue of her negotiating strategy. Even Corbyn has publicly and repeatedly come out in favour of ending it. It doesn't get much attention any more because politics has moved on - the Brexiters shifted their focus from immigration to questions of sovereignty, the ECJ, and the backstop.

The ironic thing is, if the Brexiters had ever had even a vaguely clear sense of goal, this likely all would have been resolved by now, and we'd have left last week with a clear path forward and a permanent or soon-to-be-permanent codified relationship with the EU. But they didn't really know what they wanted, hence the current mess.

Reply 31

Brooke6468

7

Anyone want to help me with a Brexit essay? need to discuss the reasons for and against a second Brexit referendum...

Reply 32

QE2

20

Original post by Brooke6468

Anyone want to help me with a Brexit essay? need to discuss the reasons for and against a second Brexit referendum...

Reasons for - It is democratic, rational, reasonable and may actually provide a clear picture of what type of Brexit people want (options should be eg. May's Deal, Norway Deal, No Deal or Remain). No one can complain about people not knowing what they were voting for given all the new information available over the last 2 years.
Reasons against - Brexiteers think Remain might get a majority. MPs in Leave majority constituencies worry they may lose their seat in the next election. The Tory Party leaders worry about losing votes to UKIP.

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