People who were too young for a Brexit vote: how do you feel? Watch

fallen_acorns
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#81
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#81
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
Brexit is a dumb choice which is a bitter pill for the United (maybe not so united anymore :rolleyes:) Kingdom - believe we will rejoin soon, yes people become less liberal as they get older, but is a question of common sense and the removal of the old nostalgic generations, but hopefully no Brexit at all....

although the UK leaving means the EU can finally get some work done, with the resident back seat member, at least de Gaulle had the vision to veto Britain entry to the Common Market....

PS... sound way of arguing by insulting someone's parents - great job
your PS bit - is just pathetic.

as for the rest:
"Brexit is a dumb choice which is a bitter pill for the United (maybe not so united anymore :rolleyes:) Kingdom"

you said this before, and its not relevant to my point.

"yes people become less liberal as they get older, but is a question of common sense"

What you consider common sense changes as you get older, and changes dramatically when your political views change. e.g. being anti-abortion is a common sense position for most right-wingers in America, whereas the left would say its the opposite is common sense. Appealing to common sense is useless.

"removal of the old nostalgic generations"

Do you think nostalgia is going anywhere? Arguably our generation is more nostalgic then the last. Look at our media - we constantly consume nostalgia like its a drug. I can only imagine how nostalgic we will be when we are that age. Not for a pre-eu life, but for countless other things.

"but hopefully no Brexit at all....although the UK leaving means the EU can finally get some work done, with the resident back seat member, at least de Gaulle had the vision to veto Britain entry to the Common Market...."

more Brexit arguments which are not relevant to the point I was making.
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fallen_acorns
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#82
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#82
(Original post by iseesparksfly)
There is some truth in that, statistically there is a trend, but I can't see left-wing people my age turning into die hard tories who have a hard on for Theresa May. I don't think all conservatives are horrible, but some right wing views are atrocious. Their policies are just amoral and horrible towards certain groups of people. The Conservative party are horrible for disabled people, horrible for poor people, horrible for animals, and just horrible for society.

Have you not considered that that "criteria" is outdated and stupid? Saying that younger people "matter less" in society makes literally no sense whatsoever
I've put in in spoilers because its quite long.


"There is some truth in that, statistically there is a trend, but I can't see left-wing people my age turning into die hard tories who have a hard on for Theresa May. I don't think all conservatives are horrible, but some right wing views are atrocious. Their policies are just amoral and horrible towards certain groups of people. The Conservative party are horrible for disabled people, horrible for poor people, horrible for animals, and just horrible for society."


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I don't know how old you are, but the shift towards conservatism tends to correlate with the amount of responsibility a person takes on. In men, it correlates very well with the age they get married. With women it correlates very well with the age they have their first child. In both cases its the build up of both assets and responsibility that causes a shift in their attitudes.

think of it like this: conservative politics are generally opposed to risk and in favor of individual choice and responsibility.. and progressive politics are in favour of collective/group responsibility, whilst being being far more open to accept societal risk if there is a chance at progress.

When you are young you have nothing, no assets, no property, no children or spouses who rely on you. You rely on everyone else, on your parents and on society as a whole to keep you going. Progressive politics are incredibly attractive because they promise potential solutions, yet if they fail? you have nothing to loose.. if they cost you? you have nothing to pay. Its all potential good that could be done, with no potential cost to you.

But as you get older, the more assets and responsibility you get the more you have to loose and to pay. Now you hear the good potential, and you agree with it. But the cost to yourself and your family is something you have to consider.. and the risk to society as a whole feels fare more pressing because you have so much to loose. Raising taxes to pay for something good means nothing to a kid, but to a parent with a child? its less money that they could spend on their child. etc.




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"Have you not considered that that "criteria" is outdated and stupid? Saying that younger people "matter less" in society makes literally no sense whatsoever"


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The first part about the criteria being outdated - is a very strong argument against raising the voting age. The hard part is that if we are going to use new criteria to choose how we pick the age at which people can vote, you need to suggest what that new criteria would be. At the moment its switched from being an adult in a societal sense, to being an adult in a legal sense. For me its a weaker position, as if the legal doesn't have a basis in the societal, it becomes arbitrary rather than useful.

they do matter less to society.. at the moment. Young people are full of potential, they will matter a lot in years to come.. but whilst they are young, they are a drain on society. They take and use, rather then creating and generating, and the vast majority provide no tangible benefits to society whilst they are young.

You can do a thought experiment to see who matters more to society: if you take all young people under 18, and got rid of them.. what would happen? Then if you took all working-age people and got rid of them, what would happen?

The first case would be problematic, we would skip a generation, people would start to have babies again, and slowly we would repopulate with more young people... but down the road we would face problems with an aging population,

The second case would end society. If you got rid of all working-age people, it would be societal collapse. Without anyone to run our infrastructure.. without anyone who understands how our economic and technical systems work, society as we know it would collapse. The young would re-build, but it would be vastly different and inferior for many many years.

So who matters more? the adults who literally keep society going, and without whom everything would collapse? or the kids, who one day will take the place of the adults, but for now are a reliant on them.

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fallen_acorns
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#83
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#83
(Original post by angelinahx)
Why are 22 year olds who still live at home able to vote but independent 16 year olds aren't?
Of course the voting system should be based on meritocracy.
I have a lot of sympathy for this position, it certainly makes logical sense, and its easy to think of positive arguments for.

In practice though, I don't know how it would be implemented. I mean, its much easier to deny a teenager the right to vote, then to tell a 36 year old man that he can't vote because he is to stupid, the later is far more likely to riot/protest/cause problems. I also worry about how easy it would be to manipulate the tests required to skew in one political direction or the other.

If you can solve the piratical issues though, a meritocratic voting system would probably be highly efficient and productive.
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Zalvager
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#84
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#84
Happy we left, most of my peers were going to vote remain so I'm glad the younger generation didn't get to vote
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Obolinda
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
erm..what? how old are you...?
14, lol
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Bang Outta Order
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Obolinda)
14, lol
are you serious my lil sister is 14!! love her to bits, ur my lil sis now too then eh. then i deeply apologise for anything offensive or like swear words or anything that I've said <3
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Obolinda
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
are you serious my lil sister is 14!! love her to bits, ur my lil sis now too then eh. then i deeply apologise for anything offensive or like swear words or anything that I've said <3
No problemo, big bro
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pon1de2replay3
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Andrew97)
I looked into this before. Giving 16-17 year olds the vote in 2016 would not have made a difference. And there should not be an upper limit on voting age.
you've got to admit it's unfair that the 85+ old people who voted mostly won't even be alive to feel the effects of brexit
(especially with all these extensions by the time we leave maybe even I'll be dead)
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Burton Bridge
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#89
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#89
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
'grow some balls' - is hardly an insult, its just a rude way of saying 'toughen up a bit'

"so voted on what they thought was best for my generation" - that I have no problem at all with, if that's what they did then good for them. But that's very different from what you first said - which is they let you decide.

I think that parents and elderly people should vote in the best interests of future generations, but that doesn't mean letting future generations choose themselves. So in a real world example.. when moving house, parents should consider whats best for their children.. but they shouldn't let their children pick the house.

Elderly generations not considering the interests of the young, is an awful trend at the moment. Just look at the housing market to see how little of a **** older people are giving right now about young people. For me I just get frustrated when adults feel like the answer to this problem is to cede power to the kids, rather then the more rational approach of just being a bit more thoughtful and considerate towards other generations.
You're touching on a trend that has occurred over the last decade or two. That trend is this, parents have stopped trying to be the parent and started trying to be the friend of their child on average, and Teachers have stopped being the teacher and started being the friend also.

These role models that are now missing for children were figures be disliked and hated while respecting and maybe even slightly fearing. There is a huge difference between discipline and abuse, this line has been blurred so much you can barely see it now.

You see the problem is that we have been really good at changing things that certain pressure groups want to change. But these academic political idealists are exceptionally bad at the evaluation of the results of the policies that they enforce. This last sentence is actually a massive understatement the evaluation is completely and totally absent from the process. What they actually do when they see a negative result, for example, the growing lack of respect in children. What they decide to do instead of scrapping their idea and reverting back or modelling back on the original model they scraped where the problem never existed in the first place, they either add sticking plasters to their own ideas and build it up in the same direction they wanted to travel, which obviously makes the result worse or they simply ignore it and do nothing at all and divert the any blame to other social group's.
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Andrew97
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#90
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#90
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
was 2 months of being 18 - dumb decision, and for sure will be a bitter pill to swallow, think we will however rejoin in the next 30 years with a less deluded generation....
Then we’ll see the EU demands for rejoining..
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Andrew97
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#91
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#91
(Original post by pon1de2replay3)
you've got to admit it's unfair that the 85+ old people who voted mostly won't even be alive to feel the effects of brexit
(especially with all these extensions by the time we leave maybe even I'll be dead)
Life’s unfair.
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QE2
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#92
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#92
(Original post by random_matt)
No life experience, voting should be 25 minimum.
"Life experience" breeds prejudice and dogmatic intransigence. There should be a maximum voting age.
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QE2
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#93
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#93
(Original post by DrMikeHuntHertz)
If we remain in the EU you will eventually loose the pound altogether.
And this would be bad because...?
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QE2
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#94
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#94
(Original post by Obolinda)
one said that Brexit would cause a replication of what happened to Germany after WW2 economically.
More likely Germany after WW1
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QE2
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#95
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Lowering the voting age in general is a poor ideological argument that's generally only used by those who know they will profit from it (liberal parties who want more youth voters)
So is opposition to it by those who will not profit also "a poor ideological argument"? Or is dismissing an argument simply because someone will profit from it, itself a poor ideological argument?
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QE2
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#96
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#96
(Original post by random_matt)
Again, ignorance and youth go hand in hand.
Ignorance is happy to hold the hand of anyone of any age.
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QE2
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#97
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#97
(Original post by ltsmith)
young people always vote left.
That's because financial and social self-interest hasn't kicked in yet.
The left is a vote for others, the right is a vote for yourself.
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DrMikeHuntHertz
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#98
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#98
(Original post by QE2)
And this would be bad because...?
Loss of purchasing power, higher non-EU import costs and loss of control over monetary policy.
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DrMikeHuntHertz
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#99
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(Original post by QE2)
That's because financial and social self-interest hasn't kicked in yet.
The left is a vote for ruling over others, the right is a vote for ruling over yourself.
Fix'd.
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QE2
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#100
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#100
(Original post by DrMikeHuntHertz)
Loss of purchasing power, higher non-EU import costs and loss of control over monetary policy.
My Euro buys more in Europe than my pound buys in the UK.
Why?
What do you mean specifically by "monetary policy"?
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