George Clooney calls for boycotting Brunei-owned hotels Watch

Fallacies
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1) Not only in Muslim countries.


Again: you are forgetting that the attitudes have been influenced also by these countries legal, social, political and cultural history. And again, as I will explain, still by no means determine all individuals' beliefs. May I remind you that same-sex marriage has only been recently legalized in highly progressive Western countries with strong economies and relatively stable political situations

2) No. Show me one example of a death sentence in Jordan that has been pursued due to someone being openly gay in a public city center.

3) "you will be attacked by random bystanders that feel that they have to attack you because of Islam. "

Not because of Islam solely. These values have fluctuated over the past centuries (especially after colonialism) while these countries remained relatively Muslim. Saying you will is a very shaky claim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._United_States

Not only in Muslim countries (again). Different countries, different cultures and different religions. Prejudice against LGBT members is not a relatively new thing and is not exclusive to the Muslim world -- a 'world' that includes countries that are ravaged by war and corrupt governments and economic crises (not all but many).

Some Western countries only recently legalized same-sex marriage and crimes against LGBT and random attacks still exist in the West.

(Original post by HumanBrian)

Also, it is not illegal to be gay in Iraq but you know wel,l that being publicly gay outside a large city centre is 100% death sentence, this applies to Jordan, Albania and Bahrain. For leaving Islam you are going to die all of them.

Thing that you are missing the most is that you wont be attacked because of a law or a bylaw, you will be attacked by random bystanders that feel that they have to attack you because of Islam.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tood-them.html
French trans attacked by Algerians in France, Algerians from Algerians where being trans is not a crime. They are doing it because of a religion not because of a law.
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HumanBrian
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Only three percent of the Jordan's population thinks that homosexuality should be accepted by society.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/...homosexuality/
There are no LGBT protection laws there, meaning that LGBT citizens can be subjected to verbal and/or physical harassment on a daily basis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Jordan
And also, families are practising honour killings for homosexuals have been on the rise in Jordan.
http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/08/jorda...r-intolerance/

Jordan is about as safe for gays as was Germany in 30' for the Jews. This is the same in all Muslim countries, once you walk away from a large city centre or tourist zone you are dead.

Arguing with 17/18th colonial era against the reality of 2019 and xenophobia in large Muslim aggregations is quite pointless. I am pretty sure that in Britain's past there were some tribes of cannibal living around here, but that does not justifies cannibalism today, nor it justifies a belief system spinning around cannibalism.
(Original post by Fallacies)
1) Not only in Muslim countries.


Again: you are forgetting that the attitudes have been influenced also by these countries legal, social, political and cultural history. And again, as I will explain, still by no means determine all individuals' beliefs. May I remind you that same-sex marriage has only been recently legalized in highly progressive Western countries with strong economies and relatively stable political situations

2) No. Show me one example of a death sentence in Jordan that has been pursued due to someone being openly gay in a public city center.

3) "you will be attacked by random bystanders that feel that they have to attack you because of Islam. "

Not because of Islam solely. These values have fluctuated over the past centuries (especially after colonialism) while these countries remained relatively Muslim. Saying you will is a very shaky claim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._United_States

Not only in Muslim countries (again). Different countries, different cultures and different religions. Prejudice against LGBT members is not a relatively new thing and is not exclusive to the Muslim world -- a 'world' that includes countries that are ravaged by war and corrupt governments and economic crises (not all but many).

Some Western countries only recently legalized same-sex marriage and crimes against LGBT and random attacks still exist in the West.
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Fallacies
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Also from your source:

Name:  Screen Shot 2019-04-09 at 4.49.32 PM.png
Views: 9
Size:  30.7 KB

There is a correlation in general to religiosity in general and LGBT rejection not only pertaining to Islamic religioisity. Plus, how has that survey been distributed through which means of sampling?


2) Also, again as your source says:

"Could lead to increased intolerance towards the community."

"“The targeting of the LGBT community is not something that is systematic, but it still happens from time to time,” Happens in other countries, does not mention stoning and most importantly written in 2008 when even the USA did not legalise same-sex marriage in most states.


AND your source says:

"Nevertheless, despite such individual cases, the topic of homosexuality seems to be increasingly tolerated in Jordan. In 2012, a book called “Arous Amman” (Amman’s fiancée) by Fadi Zaghmout was published, featuring a homosexual character who was driven to marry a woman despite being gay."

Bit you in the ass didn't it? :rolleyes:

AND your own source says it is a result of "social and cultural mores" and taboos.

This is too fun. harrysbar

3)

You are missing the point, Brian. Not justifying it by any means, but the fact that it has altered due to other factors and has become more prevalent means that it not a sole issue of religion and you need to look at it holistically.


(Original post by HumanBrian)
Only three percent of the Jordan's population thinks that homosexuality should be accepted by society.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/...homosexuality/
There are no LGBT protection laws there, meaning that LGBT citizens can be subjected to verbal and/or physical harassment on a daily basis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Jordan
And also, families are practising honour killings for homosexuals have been on the rise in Jordan.
http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/08/jorda...r-intolerance/

Jordan is about as safe for gays as was Germany in 30' for the Jews. This is the same in all Muslim countries, once you walk away from a large city centre or tourist zone you are dead.

Arguing with 17/18th colonial era against the reality of 2019 and xenophobia in large Muslim aggregations is quite pointless. I am pretty sure that in Britain's past there were some tribes of cannibal living around here, but that does not justifies cannibalism today, nor it justifies a belief system spinning around cannibalism.
Last edited by Fallacies; 2 weeks ago
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by harrysbar)
I don't understand your logic as what is TSR to George Clooney? Nothing, unless he's been secretly posting as an Annonymous member to ask if he's good enough for medicine or something.

As for caring, it is up to individual peope what they feel strongly about and what they don't. Most of us live in a state of ignorance about many of the world's injustices but when things are pointed out to us, we take a view on whether it seems morally right or not and react accordingly. If we focussed on all the injustices and darkness in the world we would probably die under the weight of too much negativity, but that doesn't mean that countries like Brunei can't be criticised when they come under the spotlight
I agree with you.

My point is that injustice should be regarded as injustice. This is not about owning all injustices. It is about being consistent in our criticism. We have politicians and “leaders” shouting about Brunei but then pretending that Saudi Arabia and Iran are not part of the issues.

I also don't like protests or boycotts because I feel they don't do much to tackle the fundamental issues. We also have some LGBT problems in our own country, but the difference is that they are not state-sponsored.
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Fallacies
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Exactly for that last bit. Thank you.
(Original post by Wired_1800)
I also don't like protests or boycotts because I feel they don't do much to tackle the fundamental issues. We also have some LGBT problems in our own country, but the difference is that they are not state-sponsored.
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HumanBrian
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You are really just cherry picking at this point, trying to hold on to any anecdote you can. USA is about as religious as is Saudi Arabia, yet they don't kill gays and not believing in god is not an act of terrorism. Another straw-man you tried to pull of is same sex marriage in the USA, is not the same as being safe as a LGBT. Gay pride in Rijad would tun into a bloodshed same as it would turn into a massacre in anywhere in Jordan.
(Original post by Fallacies)
Also from your source:

Name:  Screen Shot 2019-04-09 at 4.49.32 PM.png
Views: 9
Size:  30.7 KB

There is a correlation in general to religiosity in general and LGBT rejection not only pertaining to Islamic religioisity. Plus, how has that survey been distributed through which means of sampling?


2) Also, again as your source says:

"Could lead to increased intolerance towards the community."

"“The targeting of the LGBT community is not something that is systematic, but it still happens from time to time,” Happens in other countries, does not mention stoning and most importantly written in 2008 when even the USA did not legalise same-sex marriage in most states.


AND your source says:

"Nevertheless, despite such individual cases, the topic of homosexuality seems to be increasingly tolerated in Jordan. In 2012, a book called “Arous Amman” (Amman’s fiancée) by Fadi Zaghmout was published, featuring a homosexual character who was driven to marry a woman despite being gay."

Bit you in the ass didn't it? :rolleyes:

AND your own source says it is a result of "social and cultural mores" and taboos.

This is too fun. harrysbar

3)

You are missing the point, Brian. Not justifying it by any means, but the fact that it has altered due to other factors and has become more prevalent means that it not a sole issue of religion and you need to look at it holistically.
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Fallacies
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Not a straw-man. You moved the goalposts talking about the general attitudes towards them claiming it is exclusive to Muslim countries and the coincidence that although different countries have different cultures that because they are Muslim they are anti-LGBT. I happily followed to the other field.

HAHA.

"They don't kill gays". OK.

"In recent years LGBT violence has been on the rise in the United States."

Very safe USA:

"Several men were assaulted on July 5, 1978, by a gang of youths armed with baseball bats and tree branches in an area of Central Park in New York City known to be frequented by homosexuals. The victims were assaulted at random, but the assailants later confessed that they had deliberately set out to the park to attack homosexuals. One of those injured was former figure skater **** Button, who was assaulted while watching a fireworks display in the park."

Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia on September 22, 2000, and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet, 43 years old, and severely injuring six others. Ronald said he was angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord;" Gay testified in court that "he wished he could have killed more ****," before several of the shooting victims as well as Danny Overstreet's family and friends."

These countries as a whole are more progressive. It was a gradual progression and you cannot isolate socio-political factors.


"USA is about as religious as is Saudi Arabia, yet they don't kill gays and not believing in God is not an act of terrorism. "

Again, from your own source, no it is not as religious.


(Original post by HumanBrian)
You are really just cherry picking at this point, trying to hold on to any anecdote you can. USA is about as religious as is Saudi Arabia, yet they don't kill gays and not believing in god is not an act of terrorism. Another straw-man you tried to pull of is same sex marriage in the USA, is not the same as being safe as a LGBT. Gay pride in Rijad would tun into a bloodshed same as it would turn into a massacre in anywhere in Jordan.
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snugglebear
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What about Nespresso who George has melded his personality with, are they helping people in Kenya etc or exploiting them?
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AJ126
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(Original post by Fallacies)
Not a straw man. You moved the goalposts talking about the general attitudes towards them claiming it is exclusive to Muslim countries and the coincidence that although different countries have different cultures that because they are Muslim they are anti-LGBT. I happily followed to the other field.

HAHA.

"They don't kill gays". OK.

"In recent years LGBT violence has been on the rise in the United States."

Very safe USA:

"Several men were assaulted on July 5, 1978, by a gang of youths armed with baseball bats and tree branches in an area of Central Park in New York City known to be frequented by homosexuals. The victims were assaulted at random, but the assailants later confessed that they had deliberately set out to the park to attack homosexuals. One of those injured was former figure skater **** Button, who was assaulted while watching a fireworks display in the park."

Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia on September 22, 2000, and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet, 43 years old, and severely injuring six others. Ronald said he was angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord;" Gay testified in court that "he wished he could have killed more ****," before several of the shooting victims as well as Danny Overstreet's family and friends."

These countries as a whole are more progressive. It was a gradual progression and you cannot isolate socio-political factors.


"USA is about as religious as is Saudi Arabia, yet they don't kill gays and not believing in God is not an act of terrorism. "

Again, from your own source, no it is not as religious.
Yes gay people get killed in the USA but it's not the government doing it is it? It's not written into the constitution that you have to kill them.In lots of Muslim countries it is written into law.You might also notice that the single largest killing of gay people in the USA recently was committed by a Muslim man.Omar Mateen.Another coincidence I'm sure.
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Obolinda
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(Original post by snugglebear)
What about Nespresso who George has melded his personality with, are they helping people in Kenya etc or exploiting them?
i think they're fairtrade
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Fallacies
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You're missing the point.
(Original post by AJ126)
Yes gay people get killed in the USA but it's not the government doing it is it? It's not written into the constitution that you have to kill them.In lots of Muslim countries it is written into law.You might also notice that the single largest killing of gay people in the USA recently was committed by a Muslim man.Omar Mateen.Another coincidence I'm sure.
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AJ126
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(Original post by Fallacies)
You're missing the point.
How so? What Is your point then?
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Professional G
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(Original post by akbar0123)
Lol they can boycott all they want but nothing will stop Brunei from practising Islamic law. The entire Muslim world stands with Brunei right now and a few celebrities boycotting some hotels won’t change that.
Well done for proving that your views are as backwards as theirs.
Advocating stoning? In the 21st century? Just goes to show that some people need a reality check.
Funny how you think your views represent all Muslims?
It’s worrying how your post got so many reps when it’s literally calling for death against people.
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Last edited by Professional G; 2 weeks ago
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ilem
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That's very Islamophobic of everyone in this thread to criticise Muslims for this. A critical attitude towards sexual minorities is part of their culture and the Western world needs to become more tolerant of this if we are to progress as a society.

Diversity is strength.
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Fallacies
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'Critical attitude' a wonderful euphemism for murder (by some not all nations). Western world also has committed hate crimes against LGBT members. With progression amongst other factors, this has decreased and laws have changed protecting them in many countries. Such prejudice historically and even today is not exclusive to the Muslim world and their 'culture' and history. It has been wide-spread in different cultures and countries. We are all human in the end, and these people are being stoned to death; the question of whether it is Islamophobic to condemn such horrendous acts should be irrelevant. Progression shouldn't be discriminatory and should be pursued by all.

I do hope you're trolling.
(Original post by ilem)
That's very Islamophobic of everyone in this thread to criticise Muslims for this. A critical attitude towards sexual minorities is part of their culture and the Western world needs to become more tolerant of this if we are to progress as a society.

Diversity is strength.
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harrysbar
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(Original post by ilem)
That's very Islamophobic of everyone in this thread to criticise Muslims for this. A critical attitude towards sexual minorities is part of their culture and the Western world needs to become more tolerant of this if we are to progress as a society.

Diversity is strength.
The western world needs to be more tolerant yet a "critical attitude" towards sexual minorites should be respected? Wouldn't it be better if we all tried showing a bit of tolerance towards people who are not identical to us whether in faith, sexuality or anything else
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AJ126
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(Original post by Professional G)
Well done for proving that your views are as backwards as theirs.
Advocating stoning? In the 21st century? Just goes to show that some people need a reality check.
Funny how you think your views represent all Muslims?
It’s worrying how your post got so many reps when it’s literally calling for death against people.
I suspect we'll probably have colonised other solar systems before the Islamic world learns to stop throwing rocks at other people.Its kind of sad really.
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AJ126
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(Original post by Fallacies)
'Critical attitude' a wonderful euphemism for murder (by some not all nations). Western world also has committed hate crimes against LGBT members. With progression amongst other factors, this has decreased and laws have changed protecting them in many countries. Such prejudice historically and even today is not exclusive to the Muslim world and their 'culture' and history. It has been wide-spread in different cultures and countries. We are all human in the end, and these people are being stoned to death; the question of whether it is Islamophobic to condemn such horrendous acts should be irrelevant. Progression shouldn't be discriminatory and should be pursued by all.

I do hope you're trolling.
It's not exclusive to the Muslim world but it does seem to be exclusive to religion.You might notice that the most advanced societies tend to have liberal views towards this issue.Even 2000 years ago this was true of the Greeks and Romans.The most advanced societies are also the least religious as well.
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Fallacies
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PRSOM.

Quite paradoxical of them to say "diversity is strength" whilst condoning the act of suppression of diversity pursued by some groups.
(Original post by harrysbar)
The western world needs to be more tolerant yet a "critical attitude" towards sexual minorites should be respected? Wouldn't it be better if we all tried showing a bit of tolerance towards people who are not identical to us whether in faith, sexuality or anything else
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ilem
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(Original post by Fallacies)
'Critical attitude' a wonderful euphemism for murder (by some not all nations). Western world also has committed hate crimes against LGBT members. With progression amongst other factors, this has decreased and laws have changed protecting them in many countries. Such prejudice historically and even today is not exclusive to the Muslim world and their 'culture' and history. It has been wide-spread in different cultures and countries. We are all human in the end, and these people are being stoned to death; the question of whether it is Islamophobic to condemn such horrendous acts should be irrelevant. Progression shouldn't be discriminatory and should be pursued by all.

I do hope you're trolling.
Just because you're white to the point where you can no longer empathise with Muslims having different cultural norms does not mean that their uniqueness shouldn't be celebrated by welcoming as many as possible of them into the Western world. You have no right to claim cultural superiority over Muslims just because your culture doesn't murder gays and non-believers.
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