Texan state legislature considering bill that would make abortion punishable by death Watch

Jebedee
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#41
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#41
(Original post by SHallowvale)
I never said home DIY abortions. Private healthcare exists.

Your analogy with ice cream doesn't make sense. If someone has an unwanted pregnancy and gets an abortion to remove it then they aren't 'leaving it there because it wasn't their intention'.
(Original post by Obolinda)
Wouldn't "leaving it there" mean the person remains pregnant? 😂
It isn't a direct analogy. In this context, leaving it there is akin to abdicating responsibility for cleaning it up. Abortion is getting the government to do the dirty work you don't want to do.

You can get private healthcare but that doesn't change the moral implications in any way.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Jebedee)
It isn't a direct analogy. In this context, leaving it there is akin to abdicating responsibility for cleaning it up. Abortion is getting the government to do the dirty work you don't want to do.

You can get private healthcare but that doesn't change the moral implications in any way.
Nobody can perform a safe abortion on them self so who else is there to turn to to remove an unwanted pregnancy if not publicly funded services or private ones? How can you take "personal responsibility" in removing an unwanted pregnancy, if your opinion?

Of course you can always use contraceptives during sex, which most people will do, but this isn't 100% effective and accidents can still happen.
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Underscore__
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(Original post by Snoozinghamster)
When unwanted pregnancies reduce that will reduce abortions on its own. So when men don’t rape, when protections is 100% effective (and available) that will reduce abortions without the need to criminalise them.
People are (or should be) aware that no contraception is 100%. By having sex you are taking a risk whether you are using contraception or not. If you want 100% effective contraception then abstain from sex.

Rape accounts for a negligible number of pregnancies, let’s not pretend like most women having abortions are doing so because they were raped.

(Original post by Snoozinghamster)
If it’s illegal there will still be abortions they will just be a lot more dangerous. And 6 week rules and stuff like that are so ridiculous. Most people don’t even know they are pregnant at that point and certainly don’t have access to actually get the abortion within that time frame.
Such a weak argument; lots of things would be safer if they were legal, that doesn’t mean they should be legal.

You’re not a fan of a six week limit so where should the limit be?

(Original post by Snoozinghamster)
And for people advocating for adoption instead I assume you’re offering to pay for the medical care of labour etc (since this is America) as well as any therapy that may be needed and later support as well as any potential impact on career that pregnancy had. And whilst you’re at it if you are so pro life you should probably make sure the kid has a good life as well.
Why should the government pay? People who get pregnant almost always do so because of their own decisions. If you don’t want the cost of pregnancy then don’t get pregnant.

What do you define as a good life? How could any government or organisation ensure that?
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Jebedee
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#44
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Nobody can perform a safe abortion on them self so who else is there to turn to to remove an unwanted pregnancy if not publicly funded services or private ones? How can you take "personal responsibility" in removing an unwanted pregnancy, if your opinion?

Of course you can always use contraceptives during sex, which most people will do, but this isn't 100% effective and accidents can still happen.
You raise what you created.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Jebedee)
You raise what you created.
Why should this be the only option?
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Jebedee
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Why should this be the only option?
Because it doesn't involve the murdering of a child.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Jebedee)
Because it doesn't involve the murdering of a child.
Why do you believe that an embryo, or a fetus, is a child?

Even if we assume that they are children, why must a person keep and give birth to them? They never consented to getting pregnant.
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Jebedee
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Why do you believe that an embryo, or a fetus, is a child?

Even if we assume that they are children, why must a person keep and give birth to them? They never consented to getting pregnant.
It is the default position to believe that in the absence of definitive evidence either way. I'm not a biologist and I don't know the intricacies of when a being becomes sentient. So I err on the side of caution and assume life at all stages. Just like you would swerve your car if a shadow appeared up ahead. You wouldn't wait for confirmation that it is a live being before deciding to swerve.

You consented to decent morality just by living in a western country. Murder is illegal and immoral.
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snugglebear
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(Original post by Sabertooth)
This kind of thing pops up frequently in the South. Georgia recently thought up some 6 week abortion limit.
What should be the limit then?
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Jebedee)
It is the default position to believe that in the absence of definitive evidence either way. I'm not a biologist and I don't know the intricacies of when a being becomes sentient. So I err on the side of caution and assume life at all stages. Just like you would swerve your car if a shadow appeared up ahead. You wouldn't wait for confirmation that it is a live being before deciding to swerve.

You consented to decent morality just by living in a western country. Murder is illegal and immoral.
In the absence of definitive evidence the default position is to say you don't know. Your position seems pretty absurd since you're equating two things which are clearly not the same. A child is far from a fetus or embryo both in terms of their physical qualities and general capabilities, especially mental. Hell, a child isn't even the same thing as a baby.

Murder is illegal by definition. Killing someone, or something, is not. Under certain (albeit very specific) circumstances it is legal to kill someone, such as in an act of self defense.
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snugglebear
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(Original post by Jebedee)
It is the default position to believe that in the absence of definitive evidence either way. I'm not a biologist and I don't know the intricacies of when a being becomes sentient. So I err on the side of caution and assume life at all stages. Just like you would swerve your car if a shadow appeared up ahead. You wouldn't wait for confirmation that it is a live being before deciding to swerve.

You consented to decent morality just by living in a western country. Murder is illegal and immoral.
Are you also against ivf and stem cell research?
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Jebedee
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
In the absence of definitive evidence the default position is to say you don't know. Your position seems pretty absurd since you're equating two things which are clearly not the same. A child is far from a fetus or embryo both in terms of their physical qualities and general capabilities, especially mental. Hell, a child isn't even the same thing as a baby.

Murder is illegal by definition. Killing someone, or something, is not. Under certain (albeit very specific) circumstances it is legal to kill someone, such as in an act of self defense.
And that is exactly what I'm saying. We don't know for sure, so on that basis the logical conclusion is to not abort. Therefore act with certainty that life begins from conception.

If you had a glass of wine and you weren't sure if it had been poisoned. You are not asserting it is poisoned by not drinking it, but acting from the assumption of the worst case scenario.
(Original post by snugglebear)
Are you also against ivf and stem cell research?
I don't know enough about the subject to give a substantive answer.
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Bang Outta Order
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Excellent news. Chuffed.
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Bang Outta Order
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Plantagenet Crown you don't actually think people will get executed do you??? I wanted to do criminology so one of my past times has been researching serial killers, brutal murders committed by teens, women who snap and kill their kids/husbands, etc and I notice that over 90% of the time, they will be sentenced as harshly as possible, and then it will be appealed to life without parole/the chance of leaving. So to set the bar for abortion at death means to satisfy outraged jurors/citizens but simply being charged/sentenced for several years for it in the end. It's very reasonable actually. It's kind of like net worth, and then after taxes what you actually get paid.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
Plantagenet Crown you don't actually think people will get executed do you??? I wanted to do criminology so one of my past times has been researching serial killers, brutal murders committed by teens, women who snap and kill their kids/husbands, etc and I notice that over 90% of the time, they will be sentenced as harshly as possible, and then it will be appealed to life without parole/the chance of leaving. So to set the bar for abortion at death means to satisfy outraged jurors/citizens but simply being charged/sentenced for several years for it in the end. It's very reasonable actually. It's kind of like net worth, and then after taxes what you actually get paid.
For some kind of context, there are something like 25 executions actually carried out in the United States per year, and there are 1000 abortions per day.

This entire debate turns on one simple thing - Roe v Wade. While Roe is good law, it matters not one fig what law states want to pass on abortion.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Jebedee)
And that is exactly what I'm saying. We don't know for sure, so on that basis the logical conclusion is to not abort. Therefore act with certainty that life begins from conception.

If you had a glass of wine and you weren't sure if it had been poisoned. You are not asserting it is poisoned by not drinking it, but acting from the assumption of the worst case scenario.
Except that we already have evidence that children/babies are not the same things as embryos or fetuses, yet you still believe that they are the same.

Throwing away a potentially poisoned glass of wine is nowhere near comparable to spending the next 9 months of your life carrying a unwanted pregnancy and, most likely, spending the next 10-15 years caring for someone you don't want to care for.
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snugglebear
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(Original post by Jebedee)
I don't know enough about the subject to give a substantive answer.
In vitro fertilisation (IVF) uses human egg cells and sperm cells to create human embryos in a petri dish. A healthy embryo from these is then re-implanted into the woman's uterus - it's used for women who can't conceive naturally. The process discards human embryos it doesnt need/aren't useable or gives them to researchers to experiment on like for stem cell research. They are discarded after the experiments. Stem cell research is used to rebuild nerves. Pro-life people can be against IVF and stem cell research because they believe a human embryo is a human being and shouldn't be tampered with or discarded.
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Bang Outta Order
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Throwing away a potentially poisoned glass of wine is nowhere near comparable to spending the next 9 months of your life carrying a unwanted pregnancy and, most likely, spending the next 10-15 years caring for someone you don't want to care for.
Then you shouldn't have had unprotected sex. As for people who say "what about rape!" welp most pregnancies don't happen from rape and most sexual assaults in the USA and most of the western world aren't forced sex. So the argument that "what if she's carrying her rapist's child-and therefore, abortion is right!" is ridiculous.
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Bang Outta Order
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(Original post by Trinculo)
For some kind of context, there are something like 25 executions actually carried out in the United States per year, and there are 1000 abortions per day.
20 odd executions out of how many people sentenced to death. I bet you that it's a very small percentage. Most death sentences are either appealed to life with or without parole, acquitted, or simply take too long and the person ends up dying before their execution date anyhow, and things like good behaviour etc could also prolong their date. I guarantee you :laugh: so being sentenced to death for abortion is none other than a grand gesture and undoubtedly they will get it reduced to life or some years
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
20 odd executions out of how many people sentenced to death. I bet you that it's a very small percentage. Most death sentences are either appealed to life with or without parole, acquitted, or simply take too long and the person ends up dying before their execution date anyhow, and things like good behaviour etc could also prolong their date. I guarantee you :laugh: so being sentenced to death for abortion is none other than a grand gesture and undoubtedly they will get it reduced to life or some years
With Roe in place, no-one will even be imprisoned, let alone prosecuted.
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