Shamima Begum. Should she get legal aid from Britain ? Watch

RavenclawOwl
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#21
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#21
(Original post by MidgetFever)
What we want and what should be done are two different things.

I don't want her to be given legal aid because it was her choice to go and join a terrorist organisation, but what should be done is completely different. Unless it's proven that she shouldn't be entitled to legal aid for whatever reason, then she should be given that chance. Legal aid exists for the access of justice for all, not the few.
Agreed, very eloquently put.
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QE2
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Andrew97)
Types and seriousness of offence.
So what is the cut-off point? Which types of offence should not warrant legal representation? And is it in minor or extreme cases where a perpetrator without financial means should be denied legal representation?

Basically, you are saying that justice should only be available to the rich regarding some types of crime.
Are you also a fan of the workhouse, debtors' gaol and rickets?
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#23
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#23
As much as I hate her, shouldnt be a special case for her, the law should stand, and if she is entitled to it then fine..
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Blue_Cow
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#24
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#24
(Original post by mgi)
To fight the British government's decision to strip her of British Citizenship ?
I'm afraid so.


(Original post by mgi)
At the taxpayers expense when she decided to support isis and then when they failed she decided to ask to come back and started making some very dubious comments to justify what she did?
A small price to pay for having a decent and fair Judicial system.
Last edited by Blue_Cow; 6 days ago
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The RAR
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#25
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#25
As much as I hate her I think it's only fair she gets aid from Britain, we are the ones who stripped her citizenship off and everyone including terrorists do have the right to challenge our decisions made against them in a court of law if they believe we are wrong, vile humans but they are still humans.
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QE2
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#26
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#26
(Original post by RavenclawOwl)
You can't judge whether someone is remorseful or not through watching a few five minute interviews. This idea people seem to have of public trial through snippets from the media is very odd to me, and I find it concerning how willing this country is to break international law for someone we actually know very little about.
It was an analogy. I avoid referring to Begum's case specifically because this is about rights and due process rather than people's opinions of one very emotive issue. There are indeed many who seem keen to throw out a whole raft of long-established rights and responsibilities because of who and what she is.
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RavenclawOwl
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#27
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(Original post by QE2)
It was an analogy. I avoid referring to Begum's case specifically because this is about rights and due process rather than people's opinions of one very emotive issue. There are indeed many who seem keen to throw out a whole raft of long-established rights and responsibilities because of who and what she is.
Yes, I think I should have made it clear that in principle we agree! All deserve fair trial.
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LeapingLucy
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#28
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#28
You can't stop someone from getting legal aid just because you don't like them.

I don't like murderers either, but I accept that they have the right to a fair trial, legal representation at that trial, and aid from the state to pay for that legal representation if they cannot afford it themselves.

If you impose a likability criteria on legal aid and thus access to justice, you are setting a very dangerous precedent.
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CoolCavy
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#29
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What boggles my mind is that there are solicitors and lawyers willing to defend people like her, like on 24 hours in police custardy where they have people defending murderers and pedophiles. Very unscrupulous, imagine having to come up with some legitimate argument for what these people do
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LeapingLucy
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#30
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(Original post by Andrew97)
Types and seriousness of offence.
We live in a democracy. An essential aspect of democracy is the right to a fair trial, which includes legal representation at that trial.

When you decide that access to legal representation is dependent on the offence committed, you are finding someone guilty before they have been tried.

Innocent until proven guilty. Until someone has been found guilty in court, they cannot be assumed to have committed that offence. So you simply cannot withdraw legal aid from them based on the type of offence.
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harrysbar
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#31
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(Original post by Blue_Cow)
A small price to pay for having a decent and fair Judicial system.
With no bent coppers!

Oops, wrong thread :getmecoat:
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Themysticalegg
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#32
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No, she ran away from our society knowing full well about ISIS, it's not like we didn't warn her! She was the one who ran out of our system and went to ISIS, she shouldn't be entitled to live by our system.
Last edited by Themysticalegg; 6 days ago
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Blue_Cow
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#33
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(Original post by harrysbar)
With no bent coppers!

Oops, wrong thread :getmecoat:
:rofl:
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Taz554:-)
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#34
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#34
the syrian government are commiting atrocities among their own people, they dont know the meaning of justice. neither can they put an act of justice upon a person who should LEGALLY have access to the UKS's aid.
(Original post by Mustafa0605)
No. In fact she should be handed over to the Syrian government who serve justice for the syrian population affected by isis. In Syria joining a terrorist group carries the death penalty
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Mustafa0605
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.:.
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Last edited by Mustafa0605; 6 days ago
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Andrew97
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#36
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#36
(Original post by QE2)
So what is the cut-off point? Which types of offence should not warrant legal representation? And is it in minor or extreme cases where a perpetrator without financial means should be denied legal representation?

Basically, you are saying that justice should only be available to the rich regarding some types of crime.
Are you also a fan of the workhouse, debtors' gaol and rickets?
I don’t think somebody who ran off to join a terror group and clearly hates our country should require legal aid, personally. It’s literally just an opinion, I won’t be changing the law.
(Original post by LeapingLucy)
We live in a democracy. An essential aspect of democracy is the right to a fair trial, which includes legal representation at that trial.

When you decide that access to legal representation is dependent on the offence committed, you are finding someone guilty before they have been tried.

Innocent until proven guilty. Until someone has been found guilty in court, they cannot be assumed to have committed that offence. So you simply cannot withdraw legal aid from them based on the type of offence.
She can still have legal representation, I never said that.
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LeapingLucy
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(Original post by CoolCavy)
What boggles my mind is that there are solicitors and lawyers willing to defend people like her, like on 24 hours in police custardy where they have people defending murderers and pedophiles. Very unscrupulous, imagine having to come up with some legitimate argument for what these people do
Everyone has the right to legal representation. When you start withdrawing it from certain people based on the offences they are *alleged* to have committed, you'll find yourself on an extremely slippery slope. From withdrawing legal representation for murder, it's only one step to attempted murder, then only another to grievous bodily harm, then to a less serious assault. These rights have to be universal. Once you withdraw it from one person, then everybody is vulnerable, because categories can be changed.

Besides, these people *have not yet been found guilty*. We live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. If you say that somebody can't have a lawyer because of the offence they are alleged to have committed, you are effectively finding them guilty without a trial. That's illegal under international law.
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londonmyst
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#38
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
When you chose to leave the country and join a terrorist group that we are at war with then you sacrifice many of your rights. The only thing the government should help her in to is a noose.
Agree with your first sentence.
But I don't support the return of capital punishment to the UK justice system under any circumstances.
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LeapingLucy
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Andrew97)
She can still have legal representation, I never said that.
Some people cannot afford legal representation without legal aid. Legal aid must be available for all so that legal representation is available for all.
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Andrew97
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#40
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#40
(Original post by LeapingLucy)
Some people cannot afford legal representation without legal aid. Legal aid must be available for all so that legal representation is available for all.
Doesn’t her family already have a lawyer?
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