Extinction rebellion london protest: Arrests top 715 Watch

Poll: Is this a good way to raise awareness of the current environmental issues.
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No (19)
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Other (explain why) (1)
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Underscore__
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(Original post by AJ126)
Right yeah sure let's apply that logic to some similar issues right? Hey guys there is this massive asteroid coming to impact us we should really do something about it; but don't worry we won't force you to care about it.Hey guys we're going to have a massive pandemic but it's ok you can choose to ignore it if you want.Diversity of opinions and all that.Hey guys the planet is warming up leading to a massive collapse in ecosystems and mass extinction.Also the ice sheets will collapse and are collapsing, islands are being wiped out, hurricanes will become more severe as will drought and famine leading to mass migrations of refugees.Also lots of marine plankton responsible for half of all oxygen might die leading to our potential suffocation.Oh and lots of massive coastal cities will probably experience severe flooding making them unlivable.Dont worry though,we won't force the issue.
I’m sure if this conversation was on why people don’t care enough about Brexit there would be someone going on the same kind of rant as you. I’m sure if this was on why don’t people care about the NHS there would be someone going on the same kind of rant. People have different priorities. Even if we suppose you’re right and people have some kind duty to make others care about climate change this isn’t the way to go about it:

1. You’re causing annoyance and disruption, not creating fertile minds to hear your opinion
2. There doesn’t seem to be any attempt in these demonstrations to actually educate people, they seem designed to just cause havoc.
3. They’re remarkably stupid; they’re dissuading people from taking public transport, meaning more people are going to drive.

It’s quite easy to see why Brexit gets so much more coverage than climate change; Brexit is current, it’s being felt by people today whereas climate change isn’t having adverse effects on people in the uk today (at least none that I’m aware of) so it seems like a problem to deal with in the future. Perhaps if these people really want others to care they should have put their efforts into some kind of mass education program rather gluing themselves to trains and diverting police attention (I’m sure a lot of the same people would complain about the police being stretched too thin).
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AJ126
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#62
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(Original post by Underscore__)
I’m sure if this conversation was on why people don’t care enough about Brexit there would be someone going on the same kind of rant as you. I’m sure if this was on why don’t people care about the NHS there would be someone going on the same kind of rant. People have different priorities. Even if we suppose you’re right and people have some kind duty to make others care about climate change this isn’t the way to go about it:

1. You’re causing annoyance and disruption, not creating fertile minds to hear your opinion
2. There doesn’t seem to be any attempt in these demonstrations to actually educate people, they seem designed to just cause havoc.
3. They’re remarkably stupid; they’re dissuading people from taking public transport, meaning more people are going to drive.

It’s quite easy to see why Brexit gets so much more coverage than climate change; Brexit is current, it’s being felt by people today whereas climate change isn’t having adverse effects on people in the uk today (at least none that I’m aware of) so it seems like a problem to deal with in the future. Perhaps if these people really want others to care they should have put their efforts into some kind of mass education program rather gluing themselves to trains and diverting police attention (I’m sure a lot of the same people would complain about the police being stretched too thin).
The NHS and Brexit are small petty issues driven by politics.Thats a matter of opinion.Climate change is based on science and will impact the future of the planet for thousands of years.Nobody will even remember what Brexit or the NHS was and we'll still be feeling the impacts of it.

There has been a mass education scheme.Its taught about in literally all schools.You'd have to live on mars to not have heard about it.Which Btw suffers from a lack of a greenhouse effect which is what makes it so cold.Its not our fault that people are stupid and think its some kind of conspiracy theory.They should educate themselves.We have access to literally all the world's knowledge at our fingertips 24/7 it's not hard to educate yourself about it.
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stoyfan
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(Original post by the bear)
in China you get crushed by tanks if you do this.
Good thing we don't live in china!
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Andrew97)
This. Also blocking things like the DLR (the most eco friendly mass transport system in the city) is like shooting yourself in the foot
Not at all. The aim was to blockade Docklands and the banks at Canary Wharf and it showed both how easy it is to do that (throttle Canary Wharf station) and the effect it has (the news media who are all based there went ballistic), so a job well done and let's hope they use further unconventional protest methods to achieve similar results.
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Underscore__
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(Original post by AJ126)
The NHS and Brexit are small petty issues driven by politics.Thats a matter of opinion.Climate change is based on science and will impact the future of the planet for thousands of years.Nobody will even remember what Brexit or the NHS was and we'll still be feeling the impacts of it.
But, like I said, those things are immediate and impact people’s day to day lives today. Climate change is predicted to impact people’s live day to day at an unknown point in the future.

(Original post by AJ126)
There has been a mass education scheme.Its taught about in literally all schools.You'd have to live on mars to not have heard about it.Which Btw suffers from a lack of a greenhouse effect which is what makes it so cold.Its not our fault that people are stupid and think its some kind of conspiracy theory.They should educate themselves.We have access to literally all the world's knowledge at our fingertips 24/7 it's not hard to educate yourself about it.
And yet people still don’t care. If all of the education has failed why would gluing yourself to a train help? At least trying to further educate people would actually be productive and wouldn’t be annoying people. Like I’ve said about a million times now, why would someone be receptive to your point of view if you’re annoying them?
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AJ126
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(Original post by Underscore__)
But, like I said, those things are immediate and impact people’s day to day lives today. Climate change is predicted to impact people’s live day to day at an unknown point in the future.



And yet people still don’t care. If all of the education has failed why would gluing yourself to a train help? At least trying to further educate people would actually be productive and wouldn’t be annoying people. Like I’ve said about a million times now, why would someone be receptive to your point of view if you’re annoying them?
The idea is to draw attention to the issue and it did work really because it's all over the news.

Climate change isn't something far off that's happening in the future, it's happening right now.Only last year we had 7 massive storms in America which scientists have said were likely excaberated by climate change.Hurricanes form over warm water.Warmer water= more hurricanes.Glaciers are all in retreat.Its even becoming a lot more common to find bodies on Everest because all the snow is thawing after being frozen for decades.The president of the Maldives is looking into relocation schemes as well as are other island nations.
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Andrew97
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#67
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Not at all. The aim was to blockade Docklands and the banks at Canary Wharf and it showed both how easy it is to do that (throttle Canary Wharf station) and the effect it has (the news media who are all based there went ballistic), so a job well done and let's hope they use further unconventional protest methods to achieve similar results.
Not really, people would have just taken a taxi home rather than a train=more pollution. We don't need a protest to work out train stations are easy to screw over, so you want people to people screwed over then?
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Underscore__
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(Original post by AJ126)
The idea is to draw attention to the issue and it did work really because it's all over the news.
But why does it need attention? As you said “you’d have to live on Mars to not have heard about it”. Clearly you don’t feel that inaction is because there isn’t enough awareness. It to me comes across more as ‘do what we want or we’ll make life less convenient’

(Original post by AJ126)
Climate change isn't something far off that's happening in the future, it's happening right now.Only last year we had 7 massive storms in America which scientists have said were likely excaberated by climate change.Hurricanes form over warm water.Warmer water= more hurricanes.Glaciers are all in retreat.Its even becoming a lot more common to find bodies on Everest because all the snow is thawing after being frozen for decades.The president of the Maldives is looking into relocation schemes as well as are other island nations.
2018 doesn’t rank anywhere on the list of: year with the most hurricanes; year with the most named storms; year with the most major hurricanes; or year with the highest accumulated cyclone energy. You’re exaggerating how bad a year it was.

None of those examples are effecting the day to day lives of people in the UK. What is effecting the day to day lives of people in the UK is funding for social programs, Brexit and everything else that makes headline news.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Andrew97)
Not really, people would have just taken a taxi home rather than a train=more pollution. We don't need a protest to work out train stations are easy to screw over, so you want people to people screwed over then?
There are nowhere near enough taxis or Ubers to cope.

It's absurd to claim that delays to staff getting in and out of their well paid bank and finance jobs represents 'screwing over'. If anything, they are the people busy every day screwing others for profit.
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L i b
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No matter what government is in power and what they're doing, there seems to be a roughly similar amount of obnoxious protests and demonstrations being a pain in the arse to everyone else.

It's almost like the cause doesn't really matter at all, it's just an opportunity for a small group of people to make a show of themselves.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by L i b)
It's almost like the cause doesn't really matter at all, it's just an opportunity for a small group of people to make a show of themselves.
If you got off your rather opinionated high horse and went to see one, you would soon realise that the great majority of the protesters know the issues, have thought them through and are engaged in peaceful disruptive protest in the only cause that currently matters.
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L i b
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
If you got off your rather opinionated high horse and went to see one, you would soon realise that the great majority of the protesters know the issues, have thought them through and are engaged in peaceful disruptive protest in the only cause that currently matters.
The "only cause that currently matters". Jings. Until next week, presumably.

I have no doubt they have a passing familiarity with the issues concerned. They're enjoying their bubble, and it's not like they've got much else to do. That said, their viewpoint is usually pretty wacky: changing about climate change denial as if that's a real or significant influence in the UK.
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#73
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I get that we need to stop climate change etc etc. However this is a severe inconvenience to those going on with their daily lives and require the income they make on a daily basis to survive and hinders the economy. I get the argument that the way the economy is set up stops us caring about climate change but if they were weren't arrested and kept doing this on a daily basis parts of the city would grind to a halt constantly. Like if I'm working 8-5 the last thing I want is some protesters hindering me from going home when i'm knackered and done with the day or if I'm in a commission based job and need to get to the client otherwise I lose my chance to bid for work etc. I would also get annoyed if I had kids that I can only spend time with after work and protesters spoil the little time I have with them.
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greenteascratchy
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Right, I'm a climate change activist myself but I do not condone the events of the Extinction Rebellion, it hurts me because they are doing more harm to my cause than good.

Firstly, disrupting the trains which are an alternative to private car ownership is backwards. It's a massive cost for London as well, and they should be focusing efforts on large corporations as well, and encouraging the steps taken towards e.g. the ULEZ. Most of the people live comfortably and believe that just by going vegan they are saving the planet. Ignorant thinking in my opinion, this is a far more complex matter than simply telling people to ride a bike and compost. And they can afford to go back to work after safely.

However, some people on here are saying that climate change will not affect us, and this is equally incorrect. Firstly, I feel as if we have to speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves. We are already seeing the first climate change refugees in Bangladesh, in the Pacific Islands, indigenous people in Alaska who literally have nowhere to go. Those who live in desert areas will be forced upwards meaning more refugees within Europe who will love their livlihoods and have nowhere to go.

Affecting the UK directly as it seems some people on here only care for what affects them, then you will see an increase in extreme weather conditions, the frightening possibility of the UK facing hurricanes in the future is all the more possible by current atmospheric changes. There has been a rise in heat related illnesses putting more stress on the NHS, but more frightening is the possibility of tropical diseases moving northwards into Europe. Already, in London one in four children will suffer from respiratory illnesses, and we have already seen deaths. Farming in the UK is becoming increasingly difficult due to sporadic weather patterns meaning food prices may have potential to rise and we will lack the amount needed to export goods.


Most importantly. Do your research on both ends. Firstly those who believe that standing on top of a train will encourage support. But more importantly for those who don't think climate change is a big deal. Just because you cannot see it does not mean it is not real. There is plenty of research showing how climate change will affect us. You cannot stop learning about this.
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the bear
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
If you got off your rather opinionated high horse and went to see one, you would soon realise that the great majority of the protesters know the issues, have thought them through and are engaged in peaceful disruptive protest in the only cause that currently matters.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho...3#post82781314
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Rakas21
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(Original post by AJ126)
Well it doesnt have to make us extinct to severely impact us does it? What's the point of spending trillions of dollars fighting something which you could have prevented happening entirely.And it's not really being a hippie.Nearly all the scientists in the world are on my side not yours.To ignore them would be foolish.We don't ignore them about anything else.When a doctor says you have cancer do we treat it or hope it goes away on it's own? The same science a doctor uses to predict cancers progression is the same science a climate scientist uses.They derive from exactly the same physics and chemistry.
Thats a fair point other than your flawed assumption that i am not on the side of climate change.

That said, that is a more coherent argument than the protestors are making. Their cries of 'last generation' are truly retarded outside of a few sub-saharan countries and more likely to do damage than cause any action.
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by AJ126)
Sigh.The earth does go through cycles yes but these take place over thousands of years and are well understood.They don't take place in the course of a mere century
your wrong about this.

How our climate functions over extended periods of time is actually very poorly understood by science. We are great at the short-term stuff, but over hundreds of thousands of years, predicting why the climate will change and what causes it to do so still involves a lot of guesswork.

For example, currently over the last decade or two we have uncovered new evidence that the last ice-age ended really abruptly. Unlike the slow gradual melting that we previously thought, it now seems like there was a rapid de-frosting that took place over less then a century. A 200m rise in sea levels in a very short space of time, huge and rapid warming. (this would, disprove your second point). We know this due to the samples taken from drilling into ice in Greenland, and its very well established and documented. What caused it is still debated though, a meteor? A volcano? Seismic activity etc etc. we really don't know yet.

The point is though that there is a very key bit of information in one of the protests slogans:
(Original post by zooxanthellae)
We are living through the 6th major mass extinction.
The key bit of information in that slogan is that there have been multiple mass extensions prior to industrialized humanity. The most recent of which was in 11,000 years ago, that decimated the human population and nearly wiped us off the face of the earth. On the grand scheme of things, looking ta the climate over thousands of years, we are actually over-due an ice-age.. there are some rogue theories (not backed by the scientific consensus, so take them for what they are, just ideas) that its possibly man-made global warming that is putting off the cooling that is foretasted to have been due already. Take that last bit for what it is, just an idea - because its not proven in the slightest.

What is proven though, is that the climate changes, it will always change, and it always does change. One of the key bits of information that must be included in climate discussions is this:

Even if we stop all emissions tommorow. The climate will change, both gradually and rapidly at times, and we will still face extension level events every 10-100,000 years. Even if we stop all emissions.

Now, are we making this worse? Sure, 100%, totally, completly.. we are making out situation 100% times worse.. but think of it like this:

Climate activists tend to phrase the debate as if it were like this: Your sat in a car, and the car is going at 70mph towards a cliff.. if we act now, we can stop the car.

In reality its like this: Your sat in a car, and the car is going at 70mph towards a cliff.. if we act now we can slow down the car to 20mph.. but its still going to drive off the cliff.

Both scenarios factor in that we are making the situation worse, but they reach vastly vastly different conclusions.

If the first is true, then the solution is easy: stop polluting, and we won't drive off a cliff.
If the second is true, then the solution is different: Yes, reduce poluting to give us more time, but most importantly, learn how to either: steer the car, or how to survive the fall..because otherwise your going to die anyway.

What the second one means in reality is that if we want to avoid climate catastrophes, we need to either A, learn to control the climate, or B, learn to become adaptable enough to survive the incoming catastrophy.. Reducing polution is the stop-gap, its the measure we take to give us more time.. but its not the end solution, that is something very different.
Last edited by fallen_acorns; 4 weeks ago
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by L i b)
They're enjoying their bubble, and it's not like they've got much else to do. That said, their viewpoint is usually pretty wacky: changing about climate change denial as if that's a real or significant influence in the UK.
It isn't about denial, although that does remain an issue in the UK and it definitely is a powerful and well-funded movement in the US, where Big Coal and Big Oil (despite denials) continue to fund lies about climate change.

Extinction Rebellion have three stated demands:
https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/

Tell the truth
Government must tell the truth by declaring a climate and ecological emergency, working with other institutions to communicate the urgency for change.

Act Now
Government must act now to halt biodiversity loss and reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025.

Beyond Politics
Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice.

Nothing about denial there. Please don't repeat false statements about the movement.
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AJ126
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
your wrong about this.

How our climate functions over extended periods of time is actually very poorly understood by science. We are great at the short-term stuff, but over hundreds of thousands of years, predicting why the climate will change and what causes it to do so still involves a lot of guesswork.

For example, currently over the last decade or two we have uncovered new evidence that the last ice-age ended really abruptly. Unlike the slow gradual melting that we previously thought, it now seems like there was a rapid de-frosting that took place over less then a century. A 200m rise in sea levels in a very short space of time, huge and rapid warming. (this would, disprove your second point). We know this due to the samples taken from drilling into ice in Greenland, and its very well established and documented. What caused it is still debated though, a meteor? A volcano? Seismic activity etc etc. we really don't know yet.

The point is though that there is a very key bit of information in one of the protests slogans:

The key bit of information in that slogan is that there have been multiple mass extensions prior to industrialized humanity. The most recent of which was in 11,000 years ago, that decimated the human population and nearly wiped us off the face of the earth. On the grand scheme of things, looking ta the climate over thousands of years, we are actually over-due an ice-age.. there are some rogue theories (not backed by the scientific consensus, so take them for what they are, just ideas) that its possibly man-made global warming that is putting off the cooling that is foretasted to have been due already. Take that last bit for what it is, just an idea - because its not proven in the slightest.

What is proven though, is that the climate changes, it will always change, and it always does change. One of the key bits of information that must be included in climate discussions is this:

Even if we stop all emissions tommorow. The climate will change, both gradually and rapidly at times, and we will still face extension level events every 10-100,000 years. Even if we stop all emissions.

Now, are we making this worse? Sure, 100%, totally, completly.. we are making out situation 100% times worse.. but think of it like this:

Climate activists tend to phrase the debate as if it were like this: Your sat in a car, and the car is going at 70mph towards a cliff.. if we act now, we can stop the car.

In reality its like this: Your sat in a car, and the car is going at 70mph towards a cliff.. if we act now we can slow down the car to 20mph.. but its still going to drive off the cliff.

Both scenarios factor in that we are making the situation worse, but they reach vastly vastly different conclusions.

If the first is true, then the solution is easy: stop polluting, and we won't drive off a cliff.
If the second is true, then the solution is different: Yes, reduce poluting to give us more time, but most importantly, learn how to either: steer the car, or how to survive the fall..because otherwise your going to die anyway.

What the second one means in reality is that if we want to avoid climate catastrophes, we need to either A, learn to control the climate, or B, learn to become adaptable enough to survive the incoming catastrophy.. Reducing polution is the stop-gap, its the measure we take to give us more time.. but its not the end solution, that is something very different.
Usually if climate change happens very quickly it's because of a major event like the Mount Toba eruption or an asteroid impact.So yes it can happen on short timescales.But the argument was about causation.Seeing as we haven't had a recent supervolcano eruption it's fair to conclude that the climate should theoretically be changing slowly over thousands of years.It shouldn't be experiencing a massive rise in only a century without other significant contributors like volcanos.The fact that it is suggests humans are to blame.I didn't mean all climate change was a slow process.Was just pointing out why it couldn't be natural.

And yes I'm sure the climate will change again in the future.But that doesn't mean we shouldn't mitigate this climate change.By the time it changes again naturally a hundred thousand years might have passed.In all probability unless you can see us keeping the peace for 100,000 years with nuclear weapons; we will be extinct by then.
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z-hog
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Both sides of the argument!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvxGdvbyjQ

Adam Boulton calls world-saviour and his tribe 'incompetent middle-class self-indulgent people' and he walks out on him.
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