The Brexit Party going to crush the European Elections Watch

anarchism101
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#61
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#61
(Original post by generallee)
We leave on WTO terms. Then if the EU wants to realistically negotiate, fine, if not, sayonara, Eurocrats, not nice knowing you. They will negotiate some form of trade deal because they export far more to us than we do to them, the reason they never did was because of Remainers in Parlieamnet and the Civil Service, undermining the UK's position, and the criminal weakness of the Remainer, May.
Nope.

EU exports to the UK are higher than vice versa in absolute terms, sure, but that's pretty meaningless. The more meaningful indicators are the exports relative to the size of the economy. Our exports to the EU account for about 8% of our GDP, but vice versa is only about 2% of theirs (even when we measure it by individual country, not a single EU27 state has total exports to the UK reaching 8% of national GDP).

As a comparison, the EU exports more to Andorra than it imports from it, but if EU-Andorra trade suddenly stopped, Andorra would still be economically crippled overnight, while the EU would only register a minor pinprick, if that. Obviously, the UK is significantly larger than Andorra, but still significantly smaller than the EU27 as a whole.

But of course, deluding yourself with conspiracy theories is more comforting.
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Mossbourne
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#62
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#62
I will be celebrating when we sweep the EP elections. If only I was old enough to vote...
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anarchism101
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#63
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#63
(Original post by generallee)
Does anyone seriously doubt that if he had wanted an easy life he couldn't have found selection in some safe Tory seat, where the party machine assures the biggest morons going (and there are plenty of them in the shires) a political sinecure for an entire nothing career, as lobby fodder?
Yes, I do. And in many ways I'd say that's the kind of dynamic which has defined Farage's career throughout both UKIP and the Brexit Party. What do so many of the people who have found their way to the top of Farage's party hierarchies have in common? Diane James, Paul Nuttall, Arron Banks, Richard Tice, Raheem Kassam, Roger Helmer, Bill Etheridge, Suzanne Evans, Neil Hamilton, Ann Widdecombe, Annunziata Rees-Mogg - all failed or disgraced former Conservatives. They oppose the "establishment" not so much out of ideological difference as out of personal bitterness that it rejected them when they felt entitled to membership of it.
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Vinny C
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Mossbourne)
I will be celebrating when we sweep the EP elections. If only I was old enough to vote...
And who are we? The Lib Dems?
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Mossbourne
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#65
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#65
(Original post by Vinny C)
And who are we? The Lib Dems?
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Vinny C
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Mossbourne)
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Cheers! No problems solved... just more added! What are you guys on?
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Mossbourne
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Vinny C)
Cheers! No problems solved... just more added! What are you guys on?
Not a hundredth of what Remoaner HQ must be toking up with:
https://order-order.com/2019/03/20/c...ay-8000-costs/
https://order-order.com/2019/03/08/j...esult-invalid/
https://order-order.com/2019/02/07/j...0000-year-net/
https://order-order.com/2018/06/08/j...maugham-loses/
https://order-order.com/2018/03/15/j...unders-350000/
https://order-order.com/2017/11/19/gisela-v-bad-al/ (note Campbell being xenophobic)
https://order-order.com/2017/06/04/a...ers-jihadists/
https://order-order.com/2017/03/31/j...y-finkelstein/
https://order-order.com/2019/03/13/c...-bankski-plot/
https://order-order.com/2019/03/04/c...h-journalists/
https://order-order.com/2018/12/17/t...-remain-donor/
https://order-order.com/2018/11/28/c...on-cadwalladr/
https://order-order.com/2018/11/06/i...-conspiracies/
https://order-order.com/2018/07/31/l...anti-semitism/
https://order-order.com/2019/01/03/a...g-corbyn-tory/
https://order-order.com/2018/02/13/a...stract-brexit/
Just listening to Tory wets and Tiggers isn't going to get you a balanced view of the world - look outside the New European.
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Bashtopher
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#68
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#68
Just a little advice for when you reach adulthood and want to debate effectively:

1. If you're going to tell someone to look at more resources to get a more balanced view of the world, try not quoting one garbage opinion website to evidence 16 pieces of "news" in response. It is quite ironic. It betrays your own unbalanced view, as well as your inability to discern worthy material.

2. Don't use words like "Remoaner". It's a childish and tiresome thing to do. It gets us nowhere in debate since it serves to just reinforce a binary divide between leave and remain.
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Mossbourne
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#69
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#69
one garbage opinion website
How is Guido Fawkes rubbish? It is a very good website for Westminster news and is often more up-to-date than the main papers. Think of it as a more factual transfer gossip page - it gets the latest news quicker than the actual sports pages.
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Bashtopher
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#70
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#70
(Original post by Mossbourne)
How is Guido Fawkes rubbish? It is a very good website for Westminster news and is often more up-to-date than the main papers. Think of it as a more factual transfer gossip page - it gets the latest news quicker than the actual sports pages.
I know what it is, I've followed it for a number of years. It's a right wing propaganda website. It's a rubbish source for facts. Fantastic echo chamber, though.
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Dez
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Mossbourne)
How is Guido Fawkes rubbish? It is a very good website for Westminster news and is often more up-to-date than the main papers. Think of it as a more factual transfer gossip page - it gets the latest news quicker than the actual sports pages.
:rofl:

Facts are so foreign to Guido that if they ever did actually encounter one they'd probably yell at it to stop stealing their benefits.
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Mossbourne
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Dez)
:rofl:

Facts are so foreign to Guido that if they ever did actually encounter one they'd probably yell at it to stop stealing their benefits.
Come again?
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Fullofsurprises
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#73
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#73
(Original post by anarchism101)
Yes, I do. And in many ways I'd say that's the kind of dynamic which has defined Farage's career throughout both UKIP and the Brexit Party. What do so many of the people who have found their way to the top of Farage's party hierarchies have in common? Diane James, Paul Nuttall, Arron Banks, Richard Tice, Raheem Kassam, Roger Helmer, Bill Etheridge, Suzanne Evans, Neil Hamilton, Ann Widdecombe, Annunziata Rees-Mogg - all failed or disgraced former Conservatives. They oppose the "establishment" not so much out of ideological difference as out of personal bitterness that it rejected them when they felt entitled to membership of it.
UKIP was always basically a branch of the Tory Party, slightly detached. Many Tory MPs spoke regularly at their gatherings and many ordinary people were members of both parties. Farage was a typical Monday Club ultra-right Tory and would have been completely happy to remain inside the Tory Party if it had agreed to campaign against the EU. The anti-EU froth has always been about implementing an ultra-right wing extremist Libertarian economic model in the UK and nothing to do with immigration as claimed.
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Fullofsurprises
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#74
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#74
(Original post by Dez)
:rofl:

Facts are so foreign to Guido that if they ever did actually encounter one they'd probably yell at it to stop stealing their benefits.
He can be funny at times, but he's also a fantastically obvious liar.
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Bashtopher
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#75
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#75
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
UKIP was always basically a branch of the Tory Party, slightly detached. Many Tory MPs spoke regularly at their gatherings and many ordinary people were members of both parties. Farage was a typical Monday Club ultra-right Tory and would have been completely happy to remain inside the Tory Party if it had agreed to campaign against the EU. The anti-EU froth has always been about implementing an ultra-right wing extremist Libertarian economic model in the UK and nothing to do with immigration as claimed.
"Nothing to do with immigration" is an odd (and false) claim to make. In terms of Farage/UKIP, they have historically been to the left of the conservatives economically speaking (although, still right wing). This has been the case for the last few elections. Sure some people have said that leaving the EU would be economically beneficial, but these are in the minority. Most Tory brexiteers are more concerned with "sovereignty" than some lassiez-faire economy.

In terms of "anti-EU" froth in general, it's clear that immigration concerns were the number one reason brexit happened. Three bits of evidence (among many):

1.Support for UKIP and leaving the EU arose when 12 eastern European states joined the union in 2004.

2. An IPSOS Mori poll prior to the brexit vote asked Britons the most pressing issue facing the UK - 48% said migration, 27% said the economy. Areas with the highest ratios of immigration were most likely to vote leave.

3. The Economist found that areas that had a 200% increase in foreign population from 2001-2014 backed leave in 94% of cases.

It's a shame that immigration was the leading reason for brexit. Especially since non-EU net migration has been higher than EU net migration for decades (and, for those that don't know, the state has complete control of non-EU migration)!
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Mossbourne
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#76
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#76
1) What of Lexiteers such as George Galloway?
2) How can a political philosophy that supports FREEDOM be extremist?
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Bashtopher
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#77
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#77
(Original post by Mossbourne)
1) What of Lexiteers such as George Galloway?
2) How can a political philosophy that supports FREEDOM be extremist?
1. The left wing originally opposed Brexit in the 70s. I mean, the EU is the biggest capitalist conglomerate in the world - you can't be socialist and in the EU. Economically speaking, leftists have the natural position on brexit since the free market is a right wing ideology (a good one, too). Arguments against immigration can also tie into this left wing brexit stance (e.g. a left wing economist can argue that we must be able to control all immigration in order to redistribute resources).

Some may just use the "democracy" argument, and feel they have no other way. Populist left wingers do this (Galloway is among this type). However, this is a naive and immature notion of democracy, since democracy occurs every day and is not secured by one vote (just look at how laws are made!)

2. Of course a political philosophy that promotes freedom can be extreme. Unfettered freedom can be extremist, depending on a) how you define "freedom" and, b) the freedoms allowed by a particular society. If you want me to elaborate I will, but I am sure you can use your imagination given that tidbit of information.

Anyhow, if you're insinuating that we need to leave the EU to be free, then the obvious retort is that we are already free because have the freedom to choose whether we leave the EU (which is why we are here in the first place!). The EU isn't restricting the freedom of the UK.
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Fullofsurprises
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#78
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#78
(Original post by Bashtopher)
"Nothing to do with immigration" is an odd (and false) claim to make. In terms of Farage/UKIP, they have historically been to the left of the conservatives economically speaking (although, still right wing). This has been the case for the last few elections. Sure some people have said that leaving the EU would be economically beneficial, but these are in the minority. Most Tory brexiteers are more concerned with "sovereignty" than some lassiez-faire economy.

In terms of "anti-EU" froth in general, it's clear that immigration concerns were the number one reason brexit happened. Three bits of evidence (among many):

1.Support for UKIP and leaving the EU arose when 12 eastern European states joined the union in 2004.

2. An IPSOS Mori poll prior to the brexit vote asked Britons the most pressing issue facing the UK - 48% said migration, 27% said the economy. Areas with the highest ratios of immigration were most likely to vote leave.

3. The Economist found that areas that had a 200% increase in foreign population from 2001-2014 backed leave in 94% of cases.

It's a shame that immigration was the leading reason for brexit. Especially since non-EU net migration has been higher than EU net migration for decades (and, for those that don't know, the state has complete control of non-EU migration)!
Yes, clearly immigration has been the main motivating factor for Leave voters (or 'racism' as we dangerous metropolitan liberal elites call it), I wasn't arguing otherwise - my point was that this has been cynically manipulated by forces that care not a damn about the English working class white voter, or about the immigration issue, but are simply motivated by topics almost unknown to the general public - the potential of the EU to clamp down on the tax havens, the potential of the EU to administer the City more firmly (it has long been a haven for global crooks of every kind) and the potential of the EU to tax the rich if it becomes more federalised. They also encompass Big Oil and Coal interests internationally who fear that the EU will take climate change seriously, unlike the Tory Party.
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Mossbourne
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Bashtopher)
1. The left wing originally opposed Brexit in the 70s. I mean, the EU is the biggest capitalist conglomerate in the world - you can't be socialist and in the EU. Economically speaking, leftists have the natural position on brexit since the free market is a right wing ideology (a good one, too). Arguments against immigration can also tie into this left wing brexit stance (e.g. a left wing economist can argue that we must be able to control all immigration in order to redistribute resources).

Some may just use the "democracy" argument, and feel they have no other way. Populist left wingers do this (Galloway is among this type). However, this is a naive and immature notion of democracy, since democracy occurs every day and is not secured by one vote (just look at how laws are made!)

2. Of course a political philosophy that promotes freedom can be extreme. Unfettered freedom can be extremist, depending on a) how you define "freedom" and, b) the freedoms allowed by a particular society. If you want me to elaborate I will, but I am sure you can use your imagination given that tidbit of information.

Anyhow, if you're insinuating that we need to leave the EU to be free, then the obvious retort is that we are already free because have the freedom to choose whether we leave the EU (which is why we are here in the first place!). The EU isn't restricting the freedom of the UK.
I was responding to Fullofsurprises' "Brexit is a plot by extremist right-libertarians" argument. Apologies for any confusion.
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Bashtopher
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#80
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(Original post by Mossbourne)
I was responding to Fullofsurprises' "Brexit is a plot by extremist right-libertarians" argument. Apologies for any confusion.
No worries, I'm glad to share my perspective on those two things. Anyways, as for your response to the right w/o g plot argument, I think you might agree with the first sentence of my response below...
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Yes, clearly immigration has been the main motivating factor for Leave voters (or 'racism' as we dangerous metropolitan liberal elites call it), I wasn't arguing otherwise - my point was that this has been cynically manipulated by forces that care not a damn about the English working class white voter, or about the immigration issue, but are simply motivated by topics almost unknown to the general public - the potential of the EU to clamp down on the tax havens, the potential of the EU to administer the City more firmly (it has long been a haven for global crooks of every kind) and the potential of the EU to tax the rich if it becomes more federalised. They also encompass Big Oil and Coal interests internationally who fear that the EU will take climate change seriously, unlike the Tory Party.
That's a little too conspiratorial for my tastes. The EU has long been a contentious issue, and the issues at the forefront of the referendum (immigration, sovereignty etc) were the main driving forces for the vast majority of influencers. UKIP forced the hand of the Tories to get a referendum, and the rhetoric was then driven by immigration issues. I'm sure some nefarious people/organisations tried to influence the vote because they'd be able to maintain/increase their own wealth, but that's standard in every election. I mean, it's one of the main reason rich people vote Tory.
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