Rape accusers to be asked to hand their phones to police Watch

sophia5892
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#81
Report 3 weeks ago
#81
As I said, he was so drunk he doesn't remember so I never got that answer. Kinda ironic that you've posted about rape victims being under increased scrutiny and subject to disbelief, yet you say "I'm sorry if this happened".
At the time, I knew him to be a gay man who was touchy-feely/huggy/kissy with girls while drunk. It was almost 10 years ago and I haven't exactly kept in touch to quiz him about whether his sexuality has changed.
I do know from a subsequent gay partner of this, that whilst he didn't consider himself to have been raped, that this guy would not take no for an answer and was very forceful whilst drunk.

Edit: AngryRedhead sorry just realised this came across like I was annoyed with you when I realise how ridiculous my story sounds! I was more meaning that as someone who is clearly supportive of rape victims, it's ironic that even you aren't sure whether to believe me. And it proves your point about rape victims coming under scrutiny in a way victims of burglary, assault, murder aren't. I mean, if you're feeling disbelief, imagine what a half-decent defence lawyer would have done to me and what a jury would have thought!
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
Why would a gay man want to voluntarily have sex with a woman? I’m sorry if this really happened to you and I don’t want to sound like a prick but this doesn’t make any sense. He was unlikely to be really gay and lying about his sexuality
Yes defence lawyers can find loopholes in other evidence. But do you seriously think that having access to the entire contents of someone's phone would not have a bigger negative impact on the accuser than evidence such as CCTV etc?? Most rape cases hinge on whether the accuser is believable, rather than on CCTV/crime scene evidence. Having full access to the personal contents of the accuser's phone gives the defence much more ammunition to destroy the accuser's credibility than other evidence they'd normally have access to.

Phone records likely won't break a "strong rape accusation". But in the vast majority of cases, there isn't definitive scientific evidence of rape. Rape cases don't tend to be "strong" by default. So access to phone data will likely undermine a significant proportion of cases as many are he said/she said (e.g. sex can be proven, consent is the point of argument), and essentially those cases come down to whether the accuser can be believed beyond a reasonable doubt.
(Original post by Wired_1800)
I agree, but the point is that defence lawyers can still find loopholes through any other evidence other than phone records. Cases have been thrown out due to cctv footage, crime scene etc. I don't think phone records will break a strong rape accusation.
Last edited by sophia5892; 3 weeks ago
0
reply
ANM775
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#82
Report 3 weeks ago
#82
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
I don’t know about you but I would rather not have ten rapists walking around outside free because the defence team of the accused decided that because the rapist was known to the victim that somehow made what happened consensual. Of course because you’re a man this issue doesn’t really affect you so you don’t give a **** about the safety of women, statistics be damned, right? https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov...Rapelitrev.pdf

If you had any idea about the amount of crap women do on a daily basis to avoid being the victim of some heinous crime like rape or theft you might change your mind
If you want me to look at something at least be more specific. I am not going to read a 24 page report. Ain't no one got time for that. You are going to need to narrow it down a LOT. That's basic debating skills.

and yes I am not a woman. It is no secret that males and females opinions often differ on many things. The gender you grow up influences your experiences, perceptions and view of the world. I'm not going to apologise for my view. Perhaps if I was female it may be more aligned with yours, or perhaps it wouldn't be. We'll never know sadly.

I don’t know about you but I would rather not have ten rapists walking around outside free because the defence team of the accused decided that because the rapist was known to the victim that somehow made what happened consensual.

So if you had the Power to jail 10 rapists who had escaped justice but the cost was to imprison one innocent man would you?
0
reply
AngryRedhead
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#83
Report 3 weeks ago
#83
No, but you are very likely to get away with rape, statistically speaking, if you are inclined to do it, due to our ridiculously low conviction rate of rapists. So which is worse? A few bad rumours or your rapist getting away with it?
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
That is ridiculous.

You're not going to be shunned by society because people think you've had sex with too many men.
0
reply
CommanderKeen
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#84
Report 3 weeks ago
#84
Our company records all job interviews with women and minorities to prevent that from happening. There were 4 attempts to blackmail us or rob us this way. 2 cases of "rape" and 2 cases of "racism" as a reason for failing the interview. Once the videos is played, they just drop the claim.
(Original post by ANM775)
of the cases i know of one was simply because of a rejection ...and the other [which i won't go into] was basically somewhat along the same lines only with more aggrevating factors
0
reply
squeakysquirrel
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#85
Report 3 weeks ago
#85
(Original post by ANM775)
Is he famous?

then he have nothing to worry about.

If he's famous though then he should be a little concerned as people love to dig up the past of famous people if they think they can make a quick buck.

probably wouldn't get convicted as the ages are so close but it would tarnish him name slightly
No not famous but well known. He is in a band who are enjoying moderate success. They have played festivals and have a record deal. He doesn't use his real name in social media and the band because of this. I don't think he has anything to worry about but....
0
reply
ChickenMadness
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#86
Report 3 weeks ago
#86
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
No, but you are very likely to get away with rape, statistically speaking, if you are inclined to do it, due to our ridiculously low conviction rate of rapists. So which is worse? A few bad rumours or your rapist getting away with it?
You're comparing apples to oranges. Both are serious crimes that happen seperately and ruin people's lives.

What is the point in comparing them?
1
reply
Wired_1800
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#87
Report 3 weeks ago
#87
(Original post by sophia5892)
Yes defence lawyers can find loopholes in other evidence. But do you seriously think that having access to the entire contents of someone's phone would not have a bigger negative impact on the accuser than evidence such as CCTV etc?? Most rape cases hinge on whether the accuser is believable, rather than on CCTV/crime scene evidence. Having full access to the personal contents of the accuser's phone gives the defence much more ammunition to destroy the accuser's credibility than other evidence they'd normally have access to.

Phone records likely won't break a "strong rape accusation". But in the vast majority of cases, there isn't definitive scientific evidence of rape. Rape cases don't tend to be "strong" by default. So access to phone data will likely undermine a significant proportion of cases as many are he said/she said (e.g. sex can be proven, consent is the point of argument), and essentially those cases come down to whether the accuser can be believed beyond a reasonable doubt.
I understand that, but that can happen with other evidences. I think phone records should be included to keep a full picture. If a rape victim has evidence on her phone that can pin the accused, then I think people would want to have it included. If the accused has evidence of their innocence, that should also be included.
0
reply
ANM775
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#88
Report 3 weeks ago
#88
(Original post by CommanderKeen)
Our company records all job interviews with women and minorities to prevent that from happening. There were 4 attempts to blackmail us or rob us this way. 2 cases of "rape" and 2 cases of "racism" as a reason for failing the interview. Once the videos is played, they just drop the claim.

JESUS.

AngryRedhead do you see what I mean?


the police asking for phones of alleged victims is because TOO MANY women are making flase SERIOUS allegations
1
reply
AngryRedhead
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#89
Report 3 weeks ago
#89
I have provided you evidence to back up my point; if you’re too lazy to read it and learn something that goes against your viewpoint that’s not my problem. I hope you’re not at university because if you have that kind of attitude towards your university work you’re going to end up coming out with thirds. Attacking my debating style is irrelevant to this debate also.

Being Male comes with it naturally a lower risk of getting raped (even though it does still happen) how would you feel if you got raped or otherwise victimised by another man and you reported it to the police and you were disbelieved or the case was tossed out because of something they found on your phone? Would you still be in support of it then?

Yes I would do it; because people like you who cry about men’s lives being ruined by rape fail to realise that the women who have been raped have already had their lives ruined irreversibly. So you might aswell just admit you don’t care about women full stop


(Original post by ANM775)
If you want me to look at something at least be more specific. I am not going to read a 24 page report. Ain't no one got time for that. You are going to need to narrow it down a LOT. That's basic debating skills.

and yes I am not a woman. It is no secret that males and females opinions often differ on many things. The gender you grow up influences your experiences, perceptions and view of the world. I'm not going to apologise for my view. Perhaps if I was female it may be more aligned with yours, or perhaps it wouldn't be. We'll never know sadly.




So if you had the Power to jail 10 rapists who had escaped justice but the cost was to imprison one innocent man would you?
0
reply
ChickenMadness
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#90
Report 3 weeks ago
#90
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
Victims of other crimes don’t attract nearly as half scrutiny or disbelief as victims of rape do and we already have a ridiculously low conviction rate of rapists as it is. Considering nearly 80% of rape is committed by someone close or known to the rapist it’s obvious to see how easily this can be used to spin the narrative into the favour of the rapist, thus allowing them to get away with the crime. Unless you believe rape is not really an issue which affects you? All this will do is dissuade genuine rape victims from coming forward.
Btw I've been sexually assaulted while I was drunk and unconscious in my University room and I still agree with everything ANM775 has said. I'd say 'raped' but technically men can't be raped by women unless they're shoving a dildo up your arse.

And I do find innocent people's lives being ruinned much worse tbh.
Last edited by ChickenMadness; 3 weeks ago
0
reply
AngryRedhead
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#91
Report 3 weeks ago
#91
4 cases of false accusations does not invalidate statistics taken from thousands of cases how many times do I have to repeat this?
(Original post by ANM775)
JESUS.

AngryRedhead do you see what I mean?


the police asking for phones of alleged victims is because TOO MANY women are making flase SERIOUS allegations
0
reply
AngryRedhead
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#92
Report 3 weeks ago
#92
Did you report her?
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
Btw I've been sexually assaulted while I was drunk and unconscious in my University room and I still agree with everything ANM775 has said. I'd say 'raped' but technically men can't be raped by women unless they're shoving a dildo up your arse.

And I do find innocent people's lives being ruinned much worse than tbh.
0
reply
smarley101
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#93
Report 3 weeks ago
#93
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
That is ridiculous.

You're not going to be shunned by society because people think you've had sex with too many men.
Unfortunately that is now postmodern progressive societies has attempted to trained women to be, completely selfish and self-centered - hence comparing the ruining of a man's life with catty talk about a woman. it's complete thoughtless driven by political correctness.

I can give you a parallel, in the United States neo-progressives are attacking conservatives by continually harassing them and if they tip over the edge they film it and use it as a strategy. The news networks are happy to play the footage out of context, and watchers are happy to jump to conclusions without even bothering to validate the context. In one case the comment that a harasser made was "Your son committed suicide because of you" to a conservative commentator to try and elicit a violent response. Luckily he didn't respond that way.

It's a similar kind of thoughtlessness that is spurned on by political correctness. It's a kind of brainwashing that causes people not to operate with a sense of balance and proportion.
2
reply
ChickenMadness
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#94
Report 3 weeks ago
#94
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
Did you report her?
No.
0
reply
AngryRedhead
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#95
Report 3 weeks ago
#95
Can I ask why? She committed a crime; she’s a criminal. I’m sorry that happened to you and you definitely didn’t deserve that.

My point is that women who have genuinely been raped have already had their lives irreversibly ruined and the vast majority of rapists get away with their crime. Admittedly the media is partly to blame for sensationalising those who are accused of rape (they should keep it more discreet in case it transpires the man is innocent) and obviously the minority of women who make false accusations are disgusting
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
No.
0
reply
ANM775
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#96
Report 3 weeks ago
#96
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
I have provided you evidence to back up my point; if you’re too lazy to read it and learn something that goes against your viewpoint that’s not my problem. I hope you’re not at university because if you have that kind of attitude towards your university work you’re going to end up coming out with thirds. Attacking my debating style is irrelevant to this debate also.

Being Male comes with it naturally a lower risk of getting raped (even though it does still happen) how would you feel if you got raped or otherwise victimised by another man and you reported it to the police and you were disbelieved or the case was tossed out because of something they found on your phone? Would you still be in support of it then?

Yes I would do it; because people like you who cry about men’s lives being ruined by rape fail to realise that the women who have been raped have already had their lives ruined irreversibly. So you might aswell just admit you don’t care about women full stop
You have linked to several huge ass doccuments.
I skimmed over them.

I am not going to take hours to read them all. You are being totally unresonable. If you want me to look at something in a debate narrow it down.

It's like me saying Allah supports the killing of kafurs and then dropping a link to the entire Quran

and if i got raped and it was tossed out because something was found on my phone natrually i'd be quite annoyed. Would I then want police to stop checking phones? I really cannot answer that if i'm being honest.

So you would jail an innocent man if it meant 10 guilty ones were jailed?
That is really bad. and not bad as in good. How would you feel if you were the innocent person jailed to let 10 rapists get convicted? I bet you wouldn't spend 10 years of your life in the nic yourself for 10 random rapists. Shame on you.
0
reply
sophia5892
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#97
Report 3 weeks ago
#97
(Original post by Wired_1800)
I understand that, but that can happen with other evidences. I think phone records should be included to keep a full picture. If a rape victim has evidence on her phone that can pin the accused, then I think people would want to have it included. If the accused has evidence of their innocence, that should also be included.
Yes, we're not questioning whether people want to have the evidence included.

We're talking about "victims" being forced to give up their phone and all the data on it, regardless of whether it's relevant to the case, and then allowing the defence to use that irrelevant data against them to potentially allow a rapist to get away with it.

The other evidence you mentioned does not necessarily have that amount of power:

Most rapes happen away from CCTV. Therefore, all CCTV will show usually, is whether the accuser/accused were together prior to/after the rape. It might show if the accuser was drunk/otherwise impaired. In most cases, it will not prove or disprove rape.
Crime Scene evidence (if it's even collected which I believe is a rarity) will only show if sex occurred and if there was an obvious struggle. In most cases, it does not prove or disprove rape.
Swabs/clinical evidence, again,usually just proves sex occurred but not whether there was consent (unless there's a positive drugs test, but again that's not proof enough by itself and it wouldn't necessarily be offered or be positive depending on timeline and the defendant can still argue someone else drugged the girl and he didn't know she was drugged and non-consenting...). So again, it does not prove or disprove rape.

So most cases aren't black and white. They largely rely on the accuser being believable. The accuser is much less likely to be believed if the defence has access to a scary amount of personal data that they can use to attack and undermine the accuser's honesty/integrity, behaviour, personality etc etc.

But I guess at this point we should probably agree to disagree! I wish we had a system where there was a way for phones to be examined to establish it's not a false accusation and therefore protect the accused, without the defence having access to the kinds of irrelevant details which should never be used at rape trials. But until we have a justice system where rape victims don't have to prove they didn't deserve to be raped, I can't agree with a regulation compelling victims to give up their privacy and subject themselves to further scrutiny and trauma.
0
reply
CommanderKeen
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#98
Report 3 weeks ago
#98
This is more common than you think, problem is that it is illegal to secretly record job interviews. The video is admissible as evidence that there was no rape going on but cannot be used to sue person for the fake allegation, also you end up paying hefty fine for the illegal video, but it's still better than the other option.
I know for sure that we are not the only company doing this. Also, this does not include those offering "exchange of services" which then could turn into "DNA supported" fake allegation.
Also, I think that majority of fake allegations will be between private people and not a single person vs a corporation.
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
4 cases of false accusations does not invalidate statistics taken from thousands of cases how many times do I have to repeat this?
0
reply
AngryRedhead
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#99
Report 3 weeks ago
#99
Tbh I have better things to do; even if I did find the individual paragraphs in question you would find a way to disregard it anyway because it doesn’t match up with your opinion as men as the victims so it’s not worth my time too; as is always the case with men of your opinion.

Right, so you basically admit that you want more stringent procedures for women but when it comes to yourself you want the privilege of being given the benefit of the doubt?

I mean obviously ideally the innocent man would go free but ten innocent women’s lives have already been ruined by rape and I don’t see why men’s lives are more important than women’s.
(Original post by ANM775)
You have linked to several huge ass doccuments.
I skimmed over them.

I am not going to take hours to read them all. You are being totally unresonable. If you want me to look at something in a debate narrow it down.

It's like me saying Allah supports the killing of kafurs and then dropping a link to the entire Quran

and if i got raped and it was tossed out because something was found on my phone natrually i'd be quite annoyed. Would I then want police to stop checking phones? I really cannot answer that if i'm being honest.

So you would jail an innocent man if it meant 10 guilty ones were jailed?
That is really bad. and not bad as in good. How would you feel if you were the innocent person jailed to let 10 rapists get convicted? I bet you wouldn't spend 10 years of your life in the nic yourself for 10 random rapists. Shame on you.
0
reply
JohanGRK
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#100
Report 3 weeks ago
#100
(Original post by sophia5892)
But I'm not okay with unrelated messages/photos/data etc being used against me at trial.
I think that other guidelines can be updated to address this. And the judge will obviously have to be very 'on top of it' and nip any bs/irrelevant line of enquiry in the bud.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How did your AQA A-level Business Paper 1 go?

Loved the paper - Feeling positive (42)
16.15%
The paper was reasonable (128)
49.23%
Not feeling great about that exam... (58)
22.31%
It was TERRIBLE (32)
12.31%

Watched Threads

View All