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Matrices problem

Question:
The transpose of a matrix M=(abcd) M=\begin{pmatrix} a & b \\ c & d \end{pmatrix} is the matrix MT=(acbd) M^{T}=\begin{pmatrix} a & c \\ b & d \end{pmatrix} and M is said to be orthogonal when MTM=I M^{T}M=I, where I is the unit matrix. Given that the matrix
N=(251515k) N=\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}
is orthogonal, find the value of k. Describe geometrically the transformation of x-y plane which is represented by N. Under a transformation S of the real plane into a itself, a point P=(x,y) P = (x,y) is mapped onto the point S(P)=(ax+by,cx+dy) S(P) = (ax+by, cx+dy) . Show that when M is orthogonal, the distance between any two points P and Q is the same as the distance between their images S(P) and S(Q).
My attempt:

N=(251515k) N=\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}
NT=(251515k) N^{T}=\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &-\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}

NTN=I N^{T}N=I
(251515k)(251515k)=(1001) \begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &-\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 1 & 0\\ 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
(525k525k5k215)=(1001)\begin{pmatrix} 5 &\frac{2}{5}- \frac{k}{\sqrt{5}} \\ \frac{2}{5}- \frac{k}{\sqrt{5}} & k^{2} - \frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \end{pmatrix}= \begin{pmatrix} 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
25k5=0\frac{2}{5}- \frac{k}{\sqrt{5}} =0
k=255k = \frac{2\sqrt{5}}{5}

The transformation represented by N is a rotation by angle 26.6 (degrees) clockwise

I am having difficulty answering the last part of the question
Please I would like some help with the last part of the question

I noticed that ([br]abcd)(xy)=([br]ax+by[br]cx+dy[br]) \begin{pmatrix}[br]a & b\\ c & d\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}x\\ y\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}[br]ax+by\\ [br]cx+dy[br]\end{pmatrix}
but im dont know what to do from here
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 1
It's similar to your last point, but note that if c1 and c2 are the columns of P
P = x*c1 + y*c2
Similar for Q. Take their difference and calc the distance, noting the columns are orthogonal and unit length.

Working with the span of the columns is fairly common. Once you've got it sorted working with column vectors, see if you can write it directly with vectors and matrices and an inner product. Should just be 2, or 3 lines.
Original post by bigmansouf
Question:
The transpose of a matrix M=(abcd) M=\begin{pmatrix} a & b \\ c & d \end{pmatrix} is the matrix MT=(acbd) M^{T}=\begin{pmatrix} a & c \\ b & d \end{pmatrix} and M is said to be orthogonal when MTM=I M^{T}M=I, where I is the unit matrix. Given that the matrix
N=(251515k) N=\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}
is orthogonal, find the value of k. Describe geometrically the transformation of x-y plane which is represented by N. Under a transformation S of the real plane into a itself, a point P=(x,y) P = (x,y) is mapped onto the point S(P)=(ax+by,cx+dy) S(P) = (ax+by, cx+dy) . Show that when M is orthogonal, the distance between any two points P and Q is the same as the distance between their images S(P) and S(Q).
My attempt:

N=(251515k) N=\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}
NT=(251515k) N^{T}=\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &-\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}

NTN=I N^{T}N=I
(251515k)(251515k)=(1001) \begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix} \frac{2}{\sqrt{5}} &-\frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} & k \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 1 & 0\\ 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
(525k525k5k215)=(1001)\begin{pmatrix} 5 &\frac{2}{5}- \frac{k}{\sqrt{5}} \\ \frac{2}{5}- \frac{k}{\sqrt{5}} & k^{2} - \frac{1}{\sqrt{5}} \end{pmatrix}= \begin{pmatrix} 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
25k5=0\frac{2}{5}- \frac{k}{\sqrt{5}} =0
k=255k = \frac{2\sqrt{5}}{5}

The transformation represented by N is a rotation by angle 26.6 (degrees) clockwise

I am having difficulty answering the last part of the question
Please I would like some help with the last part of the question

I noticed that ([br]abcd)(xy)=([br]ax+by[br]cx+dy[br]) \begin{pmatrix}[br]a & b\\ c & d\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}x\\ y\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}[br]ax+by\\ [br]cx+dy[br]\end{pmatrix}
but im dont know what to do from here
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 2
(Original post by mqb2766)
It's similar to your last point, but note that if c1 and c2 are the columns of P
P = x*c1 + y*c2
Similar for Q. Take their difference and calc the distance, noting the columns are orthogonal and unit length.

Working with the span of the columns is fairly common. Once you've got it sorted working with column vectors, see if you can write it directly with vectors and matrices and an inner product. Should just be 2, or 3 lines.

this is what i have done so far
i dont really understand what you wrote


S(Q)=(ax+cy,bx+dy) S(Q) = (ax+cy, bx+dy)
S(Q)=([br]acbd)(xy)=([br]ax+cy[br]bx+dy[br]) S(Q) = \begin{pmatrix}[br]a &c\\ b &d \end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix} x\\ y\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}[br]ax+cy\\ [br]bx+dy[br]\end{pmatrix}

the coordinates of S(P)=(ax+by,cx+dy) S(P) = (ax+by, cx+dy) and S(Q)=(ax+cy,bx+dy) S(Q) = (ax+cy, bx+dy)
the matrix of S(P) and S(Q) : (ax+byax+cycx+dybx+dy) \begin{pmatrix}ax+by & ax+cy\\ cx+dy & bx+dy \end{pmatrix}
this is where i am stuck
can you explain a bit more I am finding it difficult.

thank you
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 3
You're not really thinking about it the right way. Also points P and Q will have different x and y values which You need to represent.

First write down the distance between P and Q in vector form.
Then think about how you do the same for the distance between the transformed points.

Post what you've done/where you get stuck?
Original post by bigmansouf
(Original post by mqb2766)

this is what i have done so far
i dont really understand what you wrote


S(Q)=(ax+cy,bx+dy) S(Q) = (ax+cy, bx+dy)
S(Q)=([br]acbd)(xy)=([br]ax+cy[br]bx+dy[br]) S(Q) = \begin{pmatrix}[br]a &c\\ b &d \end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix} x\\ y\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}[br]ax+cy\\ [br]bx+dy[br]\end{pmatrix}

the coordinates of S(P)=(ax+by,cx+dy) S(P) = (ax+by, cx+dy) and S(Q)=(ax+cy,bx+dy) S(Q) = (ax+cy, bx+dy)
the matrix of S(P) and S(Q) : (ax+byax+cycx+dybx+dy) \begin{pmatrix}ax+by & ax+cy\\ cx+dy & bx+dy \end{pmatrix}
this is where i am stuck
can you explain a bit more I am finding it difficult.

thank you
As it stands, what I'm going to post isn't really valid, because it assumes (the standard result) that (AB)T=BTAT(AB)^T = B^TA^T (*) for arbitrary matrices A B (such that the product AB makes sense) - from the question wording as posted, I don't think you should assume that result (although if it's in the formula booklet, you probably would get away with it).

However, the general concept is important enough that I think it's still worth making the post.

First, note that for a general vector x, we have x2=xx=xTx|{\bf x}|^2 = {\bf x} \cdot {\bf x} = {\bf x}^T {\bf x}, where for the last part we are treating x as a 3x1 matrix.

Then Sx2=(Sx)T(Sx)=xTSTSx|S{\bf x}|^2 = (S{\bf x})^T(S{\bf x}) = {\bf x}^T S^T S {\bf x}, where we have applied (*) to (Sx)T(S{\bf x})^T,

Since S is orthogonal STS=IS^T S = I, and so xTSTSx=xTx=x2{\bf x}^T S^T S {\bf x} = {\bf x}^T {\bf x} = |{\bf x}|^2, and so Sx=x|S{\bf x}| = |{\bf x}| (**)

Finally, note that SxSy=S(xy)S{\bf x} - S{\bf y} = S({\bf x} - {\bf y}), so (**) also shows SxSy=xy|S{\bf x} - S{\bf y}| = |{\bf x} - {\bf y}| as desired.

Arguably, this is more a post-A-level approach than an A-level one, but I think the general idea of manipulating transposes is something worth being aware of at A-level, (and also the idea that xx=xTx{\bf x} \cdot {\bf x} = {\bf x}^T {\bf x})).
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 5
Original post by DFranklin
As it stands, what I'm going to post isn't really valid, because it assumes (the standard result) that (AB)T=BTAT(AB)^T = B^TA^T (*) for arbitrary matrices A B (such that the product AB makes sense) - from the question wording as posted, I don't think you should assume that result (although if it's in the formula booklet, you probably would get away with it).

However, the general concept is important enough that I think it's still worth making the post.

First, note that for a general vector x, we have x2=xx=xTx|{\bf x}|^2 = {\bf x} \cdot {\bf x} = {\bf x}^T {\bf x}, where for the last part we are treating x as a 3x1 matrix.

Then Sx2=(Sx)T(Sx)=xTSTSx|S{\bf x}|^2 = (S{\bf x})^T(S{\bf x}) = {\bf x}^T S^T S {\bf x}, where we have applied (*) to (Sx)T(S{\bf x})^T,

Since S is orthogonal STS=IS^T S = I, and so xTSTSx=xTx=x2{\bf x}^T S^T S {\bf x} = {\bf x}^T {\bf x} = |{\bf x}|^2, and so Sx=x|S{\bf x}| = |{\bf x}| (**)

Finally, note that SxSy=S(xy)S{\bf x} - S{\bf y} = S({\bf x} - {\bf y}), so (**) also shows SxSy=xy|S{\bf x} - S{\bf y}| = |{\bf x} - {\bf y}| as desired.

Arguably, this is more a post-A-level approach than an A-level one, but I think the general idea of manipulating transposes is something worth being aware of at A-level, (and also the idea that xx=xTx{\bf x} \cdot {\bf x} = {\bf x}^T {\bf x})).

Thank you a million for this - I have made a note of this among my notes for matrices
the problem with this question is that i am thrown a bit off by the transpose part the chapter did not mention about transpose until this question
Reply 6
Original post by mqb2766
You're not really thinking about it the right way. Also points P and Q will have different x and y values which You need to represent.

First write down the distance between P and Q in vector form.
Then think about how you do the same for the distance between the transformed points.

Post what you've done/where you get stuck?

here is what i have done so far

we know that P=(x,y) P= (x,y) and Q will have different x and y values but these values are unknown to us so
we will let P=(x1,y1) P= (x_{1}, y_{1}) and Q=(x2,y2) Q = (x_{2}, y_{2})
the vector form of P and Q;
OP=(x1y1) \vec{OP} = \begin{pmatrix}x_{1}\\ y_{1}\end{pmatrix} and OQ=(x2y2) \vec{OQ} = \begin{pmatrix}x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix}

PQ=PO+OQ=OQOP=(x2y2)(x1y1)\vec{PQ} =\vec{PO}+\vec{OQ} = \vec{OQ} -\vec{OP} = \begin{pmatrix}x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix} - \begin{pmatrix}x_{1}\\ y_{1}\end{pmatrix}
PQ=PQ=(x2x1)2+(y2y1)2 PQ = \left | \vec{PQ} \right | =\sqrt{(x_{2}- x_{1})^{2}+(y_{2}- y_{1})^{2}}
thus the distance of PQ=(x2x1)2+(y2y1)2...(i) PQ = \sqrt{(x_{2}- x_{1})^{2}+(y_{2}- y_{1})^{2}} ...(i)
the question does not explicitly give the matrix for the transformation S, I assumed that M can be used especially after noticing that

if S=(abcd) S = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c & d\end{pmatrix}
then
if S(P)=(abcd)(xy)=(ax+bycx+dy) S(P) = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c & d\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}x\\ y\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}ax+by\\ cx+dy \end{pmatrix}
but since P=(x1,y1) P = (x_{1}, y_{1}) then S(P)=(ax1+by1,cx1+dy1) S(P) = (ax_{1}+by_{1}, cx_{1}+dy_{1})

in vector form S(P)=(ax1+by1cx1+dy1) \vec{S(P)} = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{1}+by_{1}\\ cx_{1}+dy_{1} \end{pmatrix}
I am assuming that M can be used for the transofrmation S

S(Q)=(abcd)(x2y2)=(ax2+by2cx2+dy2) S(Q) = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c & d\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{2}+by_{2}\\ cx_{2}+dy_{2} \end{pmatrix}
thus S(Q)=(ax2+by2,cx2+dy2) S(Q) = (ax_{2}+by_{2},cx_{2}+dy_{2})
in vector form S(Q)=(ax2+by2cx2+dy2) \vec{S(Q)} = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{2}+by_{2}\\ cx_{2}+dy_{2} \end{pmatrix}

S(P)S(Q)=S(P)S(Q)=(ax2+by2cx2+dy2)(ax1+by1cx1+dy1) S(P)S(Q)= \left | \overrightarrow{S(P)S(Q)} \right | = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{2}+by_{2}\\ cx_{2}+dy_{2} \end{pmatrix} - \begin{pmatrix}ax_{1}+by_{1}\\ cx_{1}+dy_{1} \end{pmatrix}
=((ax2+by2)(ax1+by1))2+((cx2+dy2)(cx1+dy1))2= \sqrt{((ax_{2}+by_{2})-(ax_{1}+by_{1}))^{2}+((cx_{2}+dy_{2})-(cx_1+dy_{1}))^{2}}

=(a(x2x1)+b(y2y1))2+(c(x2x1)+d(y2y1))2 = \sqrt{(a(x_{2}-x_{1})+b(y_{2}-y_{1}))^{2}+(c(x_{2}-x_{1})+d(y_{2}-y_{1}))^{2}}
=(a2+c2)(x2x1)2+2(ab+cd)(x2x1)(y2y1)+(b2+d2)(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(a^2+c^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(ab+cd)(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(b^2+d^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)

the distance between S(P) and S(Q) is =(a2+c2)(x2x1)2+2(ab+cd)(x2x1)(y2y1)+(b2+d2)(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(a^2+c^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(ab+cd)(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(b^2+d^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)
the question states that M is orthogonal thus MTM=I M^{T}M=I
then (abcd)=(1001) \begin{pmatrix}a & b\\ c &d \end{pmatrix}=\begin{pmatrix}1 &0 \\ 0& 1\end{pmatrix}
a=1,b=0,c=0,d=1 a=1 , b =0, c=0 , d= 1
now I sub a=1,b=0,c=0,d=1 a=1 , b =0, c=0 , d= 1 into (ii)
I get =(12+02)(x2x1)2+2(1(0)+0(1))(x2x1)(y2y1)+(02+12)(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(1^2+0^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(1(0)+0(1))(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(0^2+1^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)
=(12)(x2x1)2+2(0)(x2x1)(y2y1)+(12)(y2y1)2.....(ii)=(x2x1)2+(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(1^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(0)(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(1^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii) =\sqrt{(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)
since (i) = (ii)
thus when M is orthogonal the distance between any two points P and Q is the same the distance between their images S(P) and S(Q)
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 7
For the second half, if try and use the matrix vector notation.
So
M*(P-Q)
Is the transformed difference between points. To calculate the distance squared, take the inner product with itself
(M*(P-Q))'*(M*(P-Q))
Can you remove the transposed operator and evaluate the product?
It should be just a couple of lines?
Original post by bigmansouf
here is what i have done so far

we know that P=(x,y) P= (x,y) and Q will have different x and y values but these values are unknown to us so
we will let P=(x1,y1) P= (x_{1}, y_{1}) and Q=(x2,y2) Q = (x_{2}, y_{2})
the vector form of P and Q;
OP=(x1y1) \vec{OP} = \begin{pmatrix}x_{1}\\ y_{1}\end{pmatrix} and OQ=(x2y2) \vec{OQ} = \begin{pmatrix}x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix}

PQ=PO+OQ=OQOP=(x2y2)(x1y1)\vec{PQ} =\vec{PO}+\vec{OQ} = \vec{OQ} -\vec{OP} = \begin{pmatrix}x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix} - \begin{pmatrix}x_{1}\\ y_{1}\end{pmatrix}
PQ=PQ=(x2x1)2+(y2y1)2 PQ = \left | \vec{PQ} \right | =\sqrt{(x_{2}- x_{1})^{2}+(y_{2}- y_{1})^{2}}
thus the distance of PQ=(x2x1)2+(y2y1)2...(i) PQ = \sqrt{(x_{2}- x_{1})^{2}+(y_{2}- y_{1})^{2}} ...(i)
the question does not explicitly give the matrix for the transformation S, I assumed that M can be used especially after noticing that

if S=(abcd) S = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c & d\end{pmatrix}
then
if S(P)=(abcd)(xy)=(ax+bycx+dy) S(P) = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c & d\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}x\\ y\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}ax+by\\ cx+dy \end{pmatrix}
but since P=(x1,y1) P = (x_{1}, y_{1}) then S(P)=(ax1+by1,cx1+dy1) S(P) = (ax_{1}+by_{1}, cx_{1}+dy_{1})

in vector form S(P)=(ax1+by1cx1+dy1) \vec{S(P)} = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{1}+by_{1}\\ cx_{1}+dy_{1} \end{pmatrix}
I am assuming that M can be used for the transofrmation S

S(Q)=(abcd)(x2y2)=(ax2+by2cx2+dy2) S(Q) = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c & d\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{2}+by_{2}\\ cx_{2}+dy_{2} \end{pmatrix}
thus S(Q)=(ax2+by2,cx2+dy2) S(Q) = (ax_{2}+by_{2},cx_{2}+dy_{2})
in vector form S(Q)=(ax2+by2cx2+dy2) \vec{S(Q)} = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{2}+by_{2}\\ cx_{2}+dy_{2} \end{pmatrix}

S(P)S(Q)=S(P)S(Q)=(ax2+by2cx2+dy2)(ax1+by1cx1+dy1) S(P)S(Q)= \left | \overrightarrow{S(P)S(Q)} \right | = \begin{pmatrix}ax_{2}+by_{2}\\ cx_{2}+dy_{2} \end{pmatrix} - \begin{pmatrix}ax_{1}+by_{1}\\ cx_{1}+dy_{1} \end{pmatrix}
=((ax2+by2)(ax1+by1))2+((cx2+dy2)(cx1+dy1))2= \sqrt{((ax_{2}+by_{2})-(ax_{1}+by_{1}))^{2}+((cx_{2}+dy_{2})-(cx_1+dy_{1}))^{2}}

=(a(x2x1)+b(y2y1))2+(c(x2x1)+d(y2y1))2 = \sqrt{(a(x_{2}-x_{1})+b(y_{2}-y_{1}))^{2}+(c(x_{2}-x_{1})+d(y_{2}-y_{1}))^{2}}
=(a2+c2)(x2x1)2+2(ab+cd)(x2x1)(y2y1)+(b2+d2)(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(a^2+c^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(ab+cd)(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(b^2+d^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)

the distance between S(P) and S(Q) is =(a2+c2)(x2x1)2+2(ab+cd)(x2x1)(y2y1)+(b2+d2)(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(a^2+c^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(ab+cd)(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(b^2+d^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)
the question states that M is orthogonal thus MTM=I M^{T}M=I
then (abcd)=(1001) \begin{pmatrix}a & b\\ c &d \end{pmatrix}=\begin{pmatrix}1 &0 \\ 0& 1\end{pmatrix}
a=1,b=0,c=0,d=1 a=1 , b =0, c=0 , d= 1
now I sub a=1,b=0,c=0,d=1 a=1 , b =0, c=0 , d= 1 into (ii)
I get =(12+02)(x2x1)2+2(1(0)+0(1))(x2x1)(y2y1)+(02+12)(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(1^2+0^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(1(0)+0(1))(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(0^2+1^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)
=(12)(x2x1)2+2(0)(x2x1)(y2y1)+(12)(y2y1)2.....(ii)=(x2x1)2+(y2y1)2.....(ii) =\sqrt{(1^2)(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+2(0)(x_{2}-x_{1})(y_{2}-y_{1})+(1^2)(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii) =\sqrt{(x_{2}-x_{1})^{2}+(y_{2}-y_{1})^{2}} .....(ii)
since (i) = (ii)
thus when M is orthogonal the distance between any two points P and Q is the same the distance between their images S(P) and S(Q)
Reply 8
Original post by mqb2766
For the second half, if try and use the matrix vector notation.
So
M*(P-Q)
Is the transformed difference between points. To calculate the distance squared, take the inner product with itself
(M*(P-Q))'*(M*(P-Q))
Can you remove the transposed operator and evaluate the product?
It should be just a couple of lines?


the matrix vector notation for M×(PQ) M \times (P-Q)
[br]M=(abcd)[br]P=(x1y1)[br]Q=(x2y2)[br]M×(PQ)=[br](abcd)(x1x2y1y2)= [br]M = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d\end{pmatrix}[br]P = \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}\\ y_{1} \end{pmatrix}[br]Q = \begin{pmatrix} x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix}[br]M \times (P-Q)=[br]\begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1} - x_{2}\\ y_{1} - y_{2} \end{pmatrix} =
=(a(x1x2)+b(y1y2)c(x1x2)+d(y1y2)) = \begin{pmatrix} a(x_{1}-x_{2})+b(y_{1}-y_{2})\\ c(x_{1}-x_{2})+d(y_{1}-y_{2}) \end{pmatrix}

distance =(a(x1x2)+b(y1y2))2+c(x1x2)+d(y1y2))2=a2(x1x2)2+2ab(x1x2)(y1y2)+b2(y1y2)2+c2(x1x2)+2cd(x1x2)(y1y2)+d2(y1y2))2 = \sqrt{(a(x_{1}-x_{2})+b(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2} + c(x_{1}-x_{2})+d(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2}} = \sqrt{a^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})^{2}+2ab(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+b^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} + c^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})+ 2cd(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+d^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2}}

distance2=a2(x1x2)2+2ab(x1x2)(y1y2)+b2(y1y2)2+c2(x1x2)+2cd(x1x2)(y1y2)+d2(y1y2)2=(a2+c2)(x1x2)2+2(ab+cd)(x1x2)(y1y2)+(b2+d2)(y1y2) distance ^{2} = a^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})^{2}+2ab(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+b^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} + c^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})+ 2cd(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+d^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} = (a^2+c^2)(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+ 2(ab+cd)(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+( b^2+d^2)(y_{1}-y_{2})

replying to your suggestion of (M*(P-Q))*(M(P-Q)) i think it is
(M×(PQ))×(M×(PQ))=(a2(x1x2)2+2ab(x1x2)(y1y2)+b2(y1y2)2c2(x1x2)+2cd(x1x2)(y1y2)+d2(y1y2)2) (M \times (P-Q)) \times (M \times (P-Q)) = \begin{pmatrix} a^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})^{2}+2ab(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+b^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2}\\ c^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})+ 2cd(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+ d^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} \end{pmatrix}

I assume that it is the same as distance2 distance^{2} but in matrix- vector
notation

but i noticed that
M=(abcd)MT=(acbd) M = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d \end{pmatrix} M^{T} = \begin{pmatrix}a &c\\ b& d \end{pmatrix}
MTM=(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2)[br] M^TM = \begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix}[br]
now if we multiply it by the matrix of (M(P-Q))

=(x1x2y1y2) = \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix}

we get


(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2)(x1x2y1y2)=(a2+c2(x1x2)+(ab+cd)(y1y2)(ab+cd)(x1x2)+(b2+d2)(y1y2))\begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} a^2+c^2(x_{1}-x_{2})+(ab+cd)(y_{1}-y_{2})\\ (ab+cd)(x_{1}-x_{2})+(b^2+d^2)(y_{1}-y_{2}) \end{pmatrix}


Since MTM(M(PQ))=(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2)(x1x2y1y2) M^TM(M(P-Q)) =\begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix} is the matrix vector form of distance2 distance ^2 and MTM=I M^TM = I
so; I(M(PQ))=(1001)(x1x2y1y2) I(M(P-Q)) = \begin{pmatrix} 1 & 0\\ 0&1 \end {pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix}
[=(x1x2y1y2) = \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix}

and the distance of I(M(PQ))=(x1x2)2+(y1y2) I(M(P-Q)) = \sqrt{(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+(y_{1}-y_{2})}
the distance between two images S(P) and S(Q) =(x1x2)2+(y1y2)= \sqrt{(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+(y_{1}-y_{2})}

and the distance of P and Q =(x1x2)2+(y1y2)= \sqrt{(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+(y_{1}-y_{2})}

therefore the distance between any two points P and Q is the same as the distance between their images S(P) and S(Q).
Thanks for the help PROSM is this the right way? I think i followed your instructions Please tell me if I am worng
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 9
I think you need to try and get past viewing matrices as individual entries and evaluating everything in terms of them. Its easily confusing and error prone. The odd time you do need to do this, but often its better to use matrix-vector notation. I'll go through an answer to this, simply because of the length of time you've been at it. I'd storngly suggest you try some similar problems.

The distance (squared), by definition is
(p-q)'(p-q)
where p and q are the two points (vectors) of interest

The difference in transformed space is
Np - Nq = N(p-q)
this is a vector, so the distance (squared) in transformed space is
(N(p-q))'N(p-q)
remove the transpose
((p-q)'N')(N(p-q))
multiplication is associative so
(p-q)'(N'N)(p-q)
But N'N is the identity matrix as the columns are orthonormal. Hence the result as this is just (p-q)'(p-q)

Coup;le of things, the question says the colums are orthogonal (they are), but really should have said orthonormal so that its explicitly stated that they have unit length. This is implied by M'M=I, but perhaps should have been stated. The other is that the question does talk about individual elements, p = (x,y)', so
Np = x*c1 + y*c2
c1 and c2 are the two columns of N. They represent the transformation of the unit axes i and j. A lot of insight can be obtained when you view matrix-vector products as a linear combination of columns and if you did the proof using this approach, you'd have a lot of inner product of columns which would use the orthonormal info directly. A bit longer than using matrices directly, but good insight. Perhaps try this?

Original post by bigmansouf
the matrix vector notation for M×(PQ) M \times (P-Q)
[br]M=(abcd)[br]P=(x1y1)[br]Q=(x2y2)[br]M×(PQ)=[br](abcd)(x1x2y1y2)= [br]M = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d\end{pmatrix}[br]P = \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}\\ y_{1} \end{pmatrix}[br]Q = \begin{pmatrix} x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix}[br]M \times (P-Q)=[br]\begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1} - x_{2}\\ y_{1} - y_{2} \end{pmatrix} =
=(a(x1x2)+b(y1y2)c(x1x2)+d(y1y2)) = \begin{pmatrix} a(x_{1}-x_{2})+b(y_{1}-y_{2})\\ c(x_{1}-x_{2})+d(y_{1}-y_{2}) \end{pmatrix}

distance =(a(x1x2)+b(y1y2))2+c(x1x2)+d(y1y2))2=a2(x1x2)2+2ab(x1x2)(y1y2)+b2(y1y2)2+c2(x1x2)+2cd(x1x2)(y1y2)+d2(y1y2))2 = \sqrt{(a(x_{1}-x_{2})+b(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2} + c(x_{1}-x_{2})+d(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2}} = \sqrt{a^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})^{2}+2ab(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+b^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} + c^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})+ 2cd(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+d^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2}}

distance2=a2(x1x2)2+2ab(x1x2)(y1y2)+b2(y1y2)2+c2(x1x2)+2cd(x1x2)(y1y2)+d2(y1y2)2=(a2+c2)(x1x2)2+2(ab+cd)(x1x2)(y1y2)+(b2+d2)(y1y2) distance ^{2} = a^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})^{2}+2ab(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+b^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} + c^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})+ 2cd(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+d^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} = (a^2+c^2)(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+ 2(ab+cd)(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+( b^2+d^2)(y_{1}-y_{2})

replying to your suggestion of (M*(P-Q))*(M(P-Q)) i think it is
(M×(PQ))×(M×(PQ))=(a2(x1x2)2+2ab(x1x2)(y1y2)+b2(y1y2)2c2(x1x2)+2cd(x1x2)(y1y2)+d2(y1y2)2) (M \times (P-Q)) \times (M \times (P-Q)) = \begin{pmatrix} a^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})^{2}+2ab(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+b^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2}\\ c^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})+ 2cd(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+ d^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} \end{pmatrix}

I assume that it is the same as distance2 distance^{2} but in matrix- vector
notation

but i noticed that
M=(abcd)MT=(acbd) M = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d \end{pmatrix} M^{T} = \begin{pmatrix}a &c\\ b& d \end{pmatrix}
MTM=(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2)[br] M^TM = \begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix}[br]
now if we multiply it by the matrix of (M(P-Q))

=(x1x2y1y2) = \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix}

we get


(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2)(x1x2y1y2)=(a2+c2(x1x2)+(ab+cd)(y1y2)(ab+cd)(x1x2)+(b2+d2)(y1y2))\begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} a^2+c^2(x_{1}-x_{2})+(ab+cd)(y_{1}-y_{2})\\ (ab+cd)(x_{1}-x_{2})+(b^2+d^2)(y_{1}-y_{2}) \end{pmatrix}


Since MTM(M(PQ))=(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2)(x1x2y1y2) M^TM(M(P-Q)) =\begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix} is the matrix vector form of distance2 distance ^2 and MTM=I M^TM = I
so; I(M(PQ))=(1001)(x1x2y1y2) I(M(P-Q)) = \begin{pmatrix} 1 & 0\\ 0&1 \end {pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix}
[=(x1x2y1y2) = \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}-x_{2}\\ y_{1}-y_{2} \end{pmatrix}

and the distance of I(M(PQ))=(x1x2)2+(y1y2) I(M(P-Q)) = \sqrt{(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+(y_{1}-y_{2})}
the distance between two images S(P) and S(Q) =(x1x2)2+(y1y2)= \sqrt{(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+(y_{1}-y_{2})}

and the distance of P and Q =(x1x2)2+(y1y2)= \sqrt{(x_{1}-x_{2})^2+(y_{1}-y_{2})}

therefore the distance between any two points P and Q is the same as the distance between their images S(P) and S(Q).
Thanks for the help PROSM is this the right way? I think i followed your instructions Please tell me if I am worng
As a preamble, I should say I think things have rather gone off the rails in this thread - with various different methods being suggested, most of which are beyond the material you've covered so far. That said, you're actually pretty close to getting the question out with what you've done, but there's a fair bit of inefficiency and wrong directions.

Original post by bigmansouf
the matrix vector notation for M×(PQ) M \times (P-Q)
[br]M=(abcd)[br]P=(x1y1)[br]Q=(x2y2)[br]M×(PQ)=[br](abcd)(x1x2y1y2)= [br]M = \begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d\end{pmatrix}[br]P = \begin{pmatrix} x_{1}\\ y_{1} \end{pmatrix}[br]Q = \begin{pmatrix} x_{2}\\ y_{2}\end{pmatrix}[br]M \times (P-Q)=[br]\begin{pmatrix}a &b \\ c& d\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} x_{1} - x_{2}\\ y_{1} - y_{2} \end{pmatrix} =
=(a(x1x2)+b(y1y2)c(x1x2)+d(y1y2)) = \begin{pmatrix} a(x_{1}-x_{2})+b(y_{1}-y_{2})\\ c(x_{1}-x_{2})+d(y_{1}-y_{2}) \end{pmatrix}

distance =(a(x1x2)+b(y1y2))2+c(x1x2)+d(y1y2))2=a2(x1x2)2+2ab(x1x2)(y1y2)+b2(y1y2)2+c2(x1x2)+2cd(x1x2)(y1y2)+d2(y1y2))2 = \sqrt{(a(x_{1}-x_{2})+b(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2} + c(x_{1}-x_{2})+d(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2}} = \sqrt{a^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})^{2}+2ab(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+b^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2})^{2} + c^{2}(x_{1}-x_{2})+ 2cd(x_{1}-x_{2})(y_{1}-y_{2})+d^{2}(y_{1}-y_{2}))^{2}}

There are two simplifications that you can make here (and you can often make when talking about distance with matrix/vector questions):

Firstly, once you start doing detailed calculations, you nearly always want to be thinking about distance^2, not distance. So in general, the only point you'd take the square root is at the end if you need the actual distance. But to just compare distances, find when the distance is minimized, etc. you would just work with distance^2.

Secondly, you're wanting to show that MpMq=pq|M{\bf p} - M{\bf q}| = |{\bf p} - {\bf q}|. But MpMq=M(pq)M{\bf p} - M{\bf q} = M({\bf p} - {\bf q}), so it's actually enough to show Mp=p|M{\bf p}| =|{\bf p}|. To put it another way, you can replace x1x2x_1-x_2 and y1y2y_1 - y_2 by x,yx, y (where P=(xy)P = \begin{pmatrix} x \\ y \end{pmatrix}).

So the expression we care about is

Mp2=a2x2+2abxy+b2y2+c2x2+2cdxy+d2y2|M{\bf p}|^2 = a^2x^2+2abxy +b^2y^2 + c^2x^2 + 2cdxy + d^2y^2 (compare with the expression inside the square root above).

If we group the x^2 terms, xy terms and y^2 terms we get:

Mp2=(a2+c2)x2+2(ab+cd)xy+(b2+d2)|M{\bf p}|^2 = (a^2+c^2)x^2 + 2(ab+cd)xy + (b^2+d^2)

Now note that you observed:

MTM=(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2) M^TM = \begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix}

So if MTM=IM^TM = I, then we must have a2+c2=b2+d2=1,ab+cd=0a^2+c^2 = b^2+d^2 = 1, ab+cd = 0.

And then Mp2=x2+y2=p2|M{\bf p}|^2 = x^2 + y^2 = |{\bf p}|^2 as desired.

Note that this method *is* exactly the "viewing matrices as individual entries and evaluating everything in terms of them." approach that mqb said not to do.

Although he's right that there are better methods (that don't involve much algebra and work for matrices of arbitrary size), it's fairly clear you haven't really covered the material for them yet. And the algebra grind here isn't that bad, and I think it's pretty clear it's what you were supposed to do here.

When you feel more confident with matrix transposes, (and in particular, the result that (AB)T=BTAT(AB)^T = B^TA^T), if you want to come back to this thread we can talk about the two more conceptual approaches that don't involve explicit calculation.
Original post by DFranklin
As a preamble, I should say I think things have rather gone off the rails in this thread - with various different methods being suggested, most of which are beyond the material you've covered so far. That said, you're actually pretty close to getting the question out with what you've done, but there's a fair bit of inefficiency and wrong directions.


There are two simplifications that you can make here (and you can often make when talking about distance with matrix/vector questions):

Firstly, once you start doing detailed calculations, you nearly always want to be thinking about distance^2, not distance. So in general, the only point you'd take the square root is at the end if you need the actual distance. But to just compare distances, find when the distance is minimized, etc. you would just work with distance^2.

Secondly, you're wanting to show that MpMq=pq|M{\bf p} - M{\bf q}| = |{\bf p} - {\bf q}|. But MpMq=M(pq)M{\bf p} - M{\bf q} = M({\bf p} - {\bf q}), so it's actually enough to show Mp=p|M{\bf p}| =|{\bf p}|. To put it another way, you can replace x1x2x_1-x_2 and y1y2y_1 - y_2 by x,yx, y (where P=(xy)P = \begin{pmatrix} x \\ y \end{pmatrix}).

So the expression we care about is

Mp2=a2x2+2abxy+b2y2+c2x2+2cdxy+d2y2|M{\bf p}|^2 = a^2x^2+2abxy +b^2y^2 + c^2x^2 + 2cdxy + d^2y^2 (compare with the expression inside the square root above).

If we group the x^2 terms, xy terms and y^2 terms we get:

Mp2=(a2+c2)x2+2(ab+cd)xy+(b2+d2)|M{\bf p}|^2 = (a^2+c^2)x^2 + 2(ab+cd)xy + (b^2+d^2)

Now note that you observed:

MTM=(a2+c2ab+cdab+cdb2+d2) M^TM = \begin{pmatrix}a^2+c^2 &ab+cd \\ ab+cd& b^2+d^2 \end{pmatrix}

So if MTM=IM^TM = I, then we must have a2+c2=b2+d2=1,ab+cd=0a^2+c^2 = b^2+d^2 = 1, ab+cd = 0.

And then Mp2=x2+y2=p2|M{\bf p}|^2 = x^2 + y^2 = |{\bf p}|^2 as desired.

Note that this method *is* exactly the "viewing matrices as individual entries and evaluating everything in terms of them." approach that mqb said not to do.

Although he's right that there are better methods (that don't involve much algebra and work for matrices of arbitrary size), it's fairly clear you haven't really covered the material for them yet. And the algebra grind here isn't that bad, and I think it's pretty clear it's what you were supposed to do here.

When you feel more confident with matrix transposes, (and in particular, the result that (AB)T=BTAT(AB)^T = B^TA^T), if you want to come back to this thread we can talk about the two more conceptual approaches that don't involve explicit calculation.

Thank you very much for the help sorry i cannot rate you but if TSR allows me to in the future i will


I will learn more about matrix transposes I think the second book does have more topics on matrix that will help me get to the level that mgb is talking about and to discuss the conceptual approaches
Original post by mqb2766
I think you need to try and get past viewing matrices as individual entries and evaluating everything in terms of them. Its easily confusing and error prone. The odd time you do need to do this, but often its better to use matrix-vector notation. I'll go through an answer to this, simply because of the length of time you've been at it. I'd storngly suggest you try some similar problems.

The distance (squared), by definition is
(p-q)'(p-q)
where p and q are the two points (vectors) of interest

The difference in transformed space is
Np - Nq = N(p-q)
this is a vector, so the distance (squared) in transformed space is
(N(p-q))'N(p-q)
remove the transpose
((p-q)'N')(N(p-q))
multiplication is associative so
(p-q)'(N'N)(p-q)
But N'N is the identity matrix as the columns are orthonormal. Hence the result as this is just (p-q)'(p-q)

Coup;le of things, the question says the colums are orthogonal (they are), but really should have said orthonormal so that its explicitly stated that they have unit length. This is implied by M'M=I, but perhaps should have been stated. The other is that the question does talk about individual elements, p = (x,y)', so
Np = x*c1 + y*c2
c1 and c2 are the two columns of N. They represent the transformation of the unit axes i and j. A lot of insight can be obtained when you view matrix-vector products as a linear combination of columns and if you did the proof using this approach, you'd have a lot of inner product of columns which would use the orthonormal info directly. A bit longer than using matrices directly, but good insight. Perhaps try this?

thank you

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